Southern Baptist Megachurch Makes History Electing Woman to Pulpit

[SBCPreacher]

Beliefnet.com is an unreliable source for anything Christian. Any site the lists Mormonism and JW's as Christian denominations can't be trusted. The article may be accurate as to what she has said, but the site is... well, lets just say unreliable.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

I am definitely conservative, but I do see a problem with viewing the Bible as simply an "answer book". Its form is not: Got a question? Here's your answer. There are so many types of genres and purposes for each book that make it more unique than just an answer book. It is more of a story that we can find answers in as opposed to an encyclopedia. I see dangers in viewing it as an answer book.

sorry for butting in on the conversation. I've been reading through it, but have not joined in yet. Didn't mean to just "jump in".

What it is is God's revelation to us of himself. The truth is wee focus on knowing us better but what we need to do is focus on knowing Him better and the us questions take care of themsleves. But it is an answer book in that we can find answeres for everyday living by understanding God. My answer was in response to someone who looks for extra biblical answers. I in no way intended to make it out to be ju8st an answer book.

 

[Bible-boy]

I think this is pretty obvious. On the one hand, there is the long list of offenses for which death is the penalty in the OT. On the other hand, there is Jesus' treatment of the woman caught in adultery in John 8.

Your presupposition (that the Bible contradicts itself) is driving your hermeneutic and therefore your interpretation of the NT passage vs the OT passages and is resulting in error.

Did Jesus say that the sin of adultery, in that specific case, did not warrant the death penalty? Did Jesus specifically say that the Death penalty proscribed by the OT should no longer be carried out? The answer to both those questions is a resounding... No.

So why did Jesus not allow the mob to stone the woman taken in the "very act" of adultery? We must ask several questions to get to the root of the issue.

1. Since the OT law required both parties caught in adultery to be stoned we must ask, where was the man with whom this woman had been caught in the very act? He was guilty as well, but the mob only jumped on the woman.

2. The law required such cases to be heard before the Sanhedrin and evidence presented by two or more witnesses in order to impose the death penalty. Did this mob go through the correct process or were they just thirsty for blood and taking the law into their own hands? Clearly, they had not followed the requirements of the law and were acting as vigilantes.

The mob's actions and motives were not right or biblical. This is why Jesus stopped them. He made no comment against the OT death penalty laws in the passage you reference in John 8.

 

[dan e.]

Your presupposition (that the Bible contradicts itself) is driving your hermeneutic and therefore your interpretation of the NT passage vs the OT passages and is resulting in error.

Did Jesus say that the sin of adultery, in that specific case, did not warrant the death penalty? Did Jesus specifically say that the Death penalty proscribed by the OT should no longer be carried out? The answer to both those questions is a resounding... No.

So why did Jesus not allow the mob to stone the woman taken in the "very act" of adultery? We must ask several questions to get to the root of the issue.

1. Since the OT law required both parties caught in adultery to be stoned we must ask, where was the man with whom this woman had been caught in the very act? He was guilty as well, but the mob only jumped on the woman.

2. The law required such cases to be heard before the Sanhedrin and evidence presented by two or more witnesses in order to impose the death penalty. Did this mob go through the correct process or were they just thirsty for blood and taking the law into their own hands? Clearly, they had not followed the requirements of the law and were acting as vigilantes.

The mob's actions and motives were not right or biblical. This is why Jesus stopped them he made to comment against the OT death penalty laws in the passage you reference in John 8.

very interesting. Good points.

The mercy of Jesus is amazing.

 

[Linda64]

Zenas, when re-reading the thread I see what you posted. And I apologize to a fellow Kentuckian for "stealing your line", albeit unwittingly. I did it as a joke. But I would like to ask, "What exactly is the matter of grave doctrinal error, here?" I do see a doctrinal error, myself. It may not be all that 'grave', but it is an error, nonetheless. That 'error' is confusing and confuting the office of bishop/elder, which is by definition limited to men, and has a host of qualifications involved, with the spiritual gift of pastor and teacher which is not limited, save at the discretion of the Holy Spirit, to any qualifications or gender, the same as for any of the other spiritual gifts, and all gifts are irrevocable, as well. (Rom. 11:29)

The offices are not necessarily irrevocble either, for if one does not fit, or no longer fits the qulifications given, then one is no longer qualified, and should not hold that office, in the local church, IMO.

Get it, gang! There is absolutely no Biblical prohibition or hint that a woman cannot have any one particular gift, including the gift of pastor and teacher, vs any other spiritual gift, or that gifts are ever gender specific.

And, by the same token and in the same vein, there is absolutely no room, Biblically, for a woman to be a bishop/elder, for that office is, in fact, limited to men, among the other limitations.

Referring to the last comment in the above quote, pastor/elder/bishop are not separate offices, as the definition below explains:

The terms pastor, elder, and bishop describe the same office in the assembly, referring to three different aspects of the church leader's work

Pastor refers to the church leader as the shepherd of the flock, speaking of his work of teaching and nurturing and protecting the assembly (Ephesians 4:11)

Elder refers to the church leader's maturity and responsibility and the fact that he is to be an example to the church.

Bishop refers to the church leader's authority, to the fact that he is to rule the church. The Greek word translated "bishop" is also translated "oversee" (Acts 20:28; 1 Peter 5:2)

In Titus 1:5, 7 the terms "elders" and "bishops" are used interchangeably. In Acts 20 all three terms are applied to the same office. In v. 17 the church leaders are called "elders." In v. 28 the Greek words for bishop ("overseers") and pastor ("feed the flock") are used. 1 Peter 5 also uses these terms to refer to the same office in the church. Verse 1 speaks of the "elders," and v. 2 speaks of these elders as overseers (bishops) and shepherds. The fact that these terms are used interchangeably is significant. A pastor is an elder is a bishop. These are not separate offices.

Way of Life Encyclopedia

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: (Titus 1:5)

For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; (Titus 1:7)

And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. (Acts 20:17)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers (bishops), to feed the church of God (pastor), which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: (1 Peter 5:1)

Feed the flock (pastor) of God which is among you, taking the oversight (overseer/bishop) thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; (1 Peter 5:2)

There is no hint that the office of pastor is a gift, referring to Ephesians 4:11. Women are not called to pastor churches. 1 Timothy 3:2 specifally states that the "bishop" must be the husband of one wife. Find a woman that meets that requirment.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; (1 Timothy 3:2)

 

[charles_creech78]

I do not believe a women should be incharge of a church or preach or teach.1 Corinthians Chapter14 Vers.34 Let your women keep silence in the CHURCHES: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are COMMANDED to be under OBEDIENCE,as also saith the LAW. Vers.35 And if they will learn any thing,let them ask their husbands at home:for it is a shame for a women to speak in the CHURCH. VERS 37 If any man think himself to be a PROPHET, or SPIRITUAL,let him ACKNOWLEDGE that the things that I WRITE unto you ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD.

 

[charles_creech78]

1 Timothy Chapter2 Vers.9-15 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety;not with broided hair,or gold,or pearls,or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a women to teach, nor to usuro authority over the man, but to be in silence.13 For adam was first formed then eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived but the women being deceived was in the transgression.15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

 

[dan e.]

You sure do come out swingin', charles...being your first posts and all!

Hope you enjoy your time at the BB.

 

[Ed Edwards]

1 Timothy 2:8-9A (KJV1611 Edition):
I will therefore that men pray euery where,
lifting vp holy handes without wrath, and doubting.
9 In like maner also, that women ...

Obviously this means that women
are to "pray euery where,
lifting vp holy handes without wrath, and doubting".
As well, there are some other things should
do in addition: the modesty, shamefastnesse
(or 'shamefacedness' as some versions after
1750 use), non-pretensious dress.

 

[Kevin_Byers]

Shhhhhhh

A Pastor is an undershepherd called by God (acts 20:28). Sincew this Hyphenated named woman does not qualify she may fill the pulpit but she isn't a Pastor. Pastors are called of God. She is not. 2 Timothy 4:1-4 applies here specifically.

Yes, she can fill the pulpit, as long as she remains silent.

(1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.)

:thumbs:

 

[Magnetic Poles]

I do not believe a women should be incharge of a church or preach or teach.1 Corinthians Chapter14 Vers.34 Let your women keep silence in the CHURCHES: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are COMMANDED to be under OBEDIENCE,as also saith the LAW. Vers.35 And if they will learn any thing,let them ask their husbands at home:for it is a shame for a women to speak in the CHURCH. VERS 37 If any man think himself to be a PROPHET, or SPIRITUAL,let him ACKNOWLEDGE that the things that I WRITE unto you ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD.

Yeah, let's keep the women barefoot and pregnant. Let's not love them, let's make them obey. Sheesh, for someone in their 20s, you sure sound like a dinosaur. Guess they are not extinct after all.

 

[StefanM]

Yeah, let's keep the women barefoot and pregnant. Let's not love them, let's make them obey. Sheesh, for someone in their 20s, you sure sound like a dinosaur. Guess they are not extinct after all.

In a nasal voice:

"Now class, this is what is known as a non sequitur."

 

[Magnetic Poles]

No, not really. A non sequitur involves two statements that have no connection. This is actually related to the misogynistic attitude expressed by a poster, and involved a bit of sarcasm. This type of thinking is long gone in civilized society. Unfortunately, the fundy mind is stuck in the 1600s.

 

[StefanM]

No, not really. A non sequitur involves two statements that have no connection. This is actually related to the misogynistic attitude expressed by a poster, and involved a bit of sarcasm. This type of thinking is long gone in civilized society. Unfortunately, the fundy mind is stuck in the 1600s.

Logical non sequiturs don't have to be completely unrelated, but I'm not going to worry about arguing over that.

Misogynistic attitude? I saw nothing other than bad formatting, scriptural quotations, and one original sentence.

"I do not believe a women should be in charge of a church or preach or teach."

This sounds close to "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." - 1 Tim. 2:12, NIV

I think it is inaccurate to assert that people who hold to a complementarian position are misogynistic, stuck in the 1600s, or any other disparaging remark. Some complementarians are misogynistic, but not all are. As a person who used to believe in an egalitarian position regarding pastoral ministry, I now realize how inaccurate my previous statements about the other side often were.

The difference in my mind boils down to a difference in hermeneutic. Do we primarily seek to align our practice with the scripture or to align the scripture with our practice? For those of the complementarian position, the answer is often that we are seeking to align our practice with the scripture, even if culturally unacceptable.

It would be far easier for me culturally if certain verses were not in the Bible, but as it stands now, "my conscience is captive to the Word of God."

 

[carpro]

hey I've got an idea for a great Sunday topic...let's throw rocks at people we don't like (or have a clue about)...

Anyhoo, I'll say for the record I'm SBC and stinking proud of it! The SBC is doing more the reach people for the Kingdom of God than most.

Also, I've been by FBC Decatur and frankly I doubt the Mega-Church label. If you've never been in Decatur, Georgia you'll not understand the dynamic of the area. This isn't a surprise and won't be a huge issue.

I'm more worried about the people around this board who are more than ready to throw rocks before looking to see what is really happening.

I would not, by any means, consider a church the size of FBC Decatur, Ga. a "mega-church". Not that it is really pertinent to the subject, just sort of misleading.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Sorry I bailed on this discussion. My wife has been having some difficulties lately and we found out last week that she will need surgery. I'm going to be tied up for a while taking care of personal business.

I hope to return in 7 to 10 days, if circumstances permit.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Praying for your wife and you, Brother Baptist Believer.

 

[mcdirector]

Praying for your wife and you, Brother Baptist Believer.

Same here. Much more important things going on than this place for sure!

 

[charles_creech78]

Yeah, let's keep the women barefoot and pregnant. Let's not love them, let's make them obey. Sheesh, for someone in their 20s, you sure sound like a dinosaur. Guess they are not extinct after all.

Genesis chapter 3 vers 16 Unto the women he said i will greatly multiply thy sorrow and they conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and they desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall RULE OVER THEE.1 Timothy Chapter 2 vers. 15 Notwithstanding she SHALL BE SAVED IN CHILDBEARING,if they continue in FAITH, and CHARITY and HOLINESS with sobriety. And a women In Christ Jesus will be doing these thing.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Genesis chapter 3 vers 16 Unto the women he said i will greatly multiply thy sorrow and they conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and they desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall RULE OVER THEE.1 Timothy Chapter 2 vers. 15 Notwithstanding she SHALL BE SAVED IN CHILDBEARING,if they continue in FAITH, and CHARITY and HOLINESS with sobriety. And a women In Christ Jesus will be doing these thing.