Southern Baptist Megachurch Makes History Electing Woman to Pulpit

[Ed Edwards]

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[Allan]

Your right HumbleJohn ... and that is no woman being a Pastor/Elder/Biship.

Welcome to the BB!

 

[Allan]

Yes for $100 or $150 a month
the SBC will make a point & take a stand.]
For churchs that donate a 10$million+ a month there
is no question: let 'em have women pastors if they wish.

That is very inane, and not remotely true.
The SBC is not run by individuals but by the coorporate body of churches. And if THEY decide then it will be done. You guys NEED to get your facts straight before you speak.

Let she who is without the right word
throw the first Dictionary!

No, let her not have authority over a man in the Church (regarding preaching/teaching) as sayeth the Word of God.
And those who desire otherwise, they can throw their bibles away.

 

[charles_creech78]

Rev. Capt.2 vers.20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee because thou sufferest that women Jezebel which calleth herself a Prophetess, to TEACH and to seduce my servant to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed unto Idols.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Rev. Capt.2 vers.20
Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee
because thou sufferest that women Jezebel
which calleth herself a Prophetess,
to TEACH and to seduce my servant to commit fornication
and to eat things sacrificed unto Idols.

The real Bible says:

Revelation II.20 (KJV1611 Edition):
Notwithstanding, I haue a few things against thee,
because thou sufferest that woman Iezebel,
which calleth herselfe a Prophetesse,
to teach and to seduce my seruants to commit fornication,
and to eat things sacrificed vnto idoles.

Which modern version are you using?

 

[David Lamb]

The real Bible says:

Revelation II.20 (KJV1611 Edition):
Notwithstanding, I haue a few things against thee,
because thou sufferest that woman Iezebel,
which calleth herselfe a Prophetesse,
to teach and to seduce my seruants to commit fornication,
and to eat things sacrificed vnto idoles.

Which modern version are you using?

What Charles posted looks like the 1769 edition of the AV/KJV, except that he wrote "Idols" rather than "idols."

I'm not very bright, I know, but (apart from the letter u looking like a v, the J looke like an I, a comma after the first word, and a few spelling differences such as herselfe/herself) I cannot see any difference between the 1611 and the 1769:

Notwithstanding, I haue a few things against thee,
Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee,

because thou sufferest that woman Iezebel,
because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel,

which calleth herselfe a Prophetesse,
which calleth herself a prophetess,

to teach and to seduce my seruants to commit fornication,
to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication,

and to eat things sacrificed vnto idoles.
and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.​

I am probably asking something which everyone else saw immediately, but what was your point, Ed? I stress I am not criticising Ed or Charles, or indeed anyone else - just asking.

 

[charles_creech78]

I use 1611 editon KJV book .But I got this scripture of my computer bible. It is kjv but it does not say what edition. I read out of 1611 edition bible KJV. I did not know how to read till I read the 1611 edition.

 

[Ed Edwards]

//It is kjv but it does not say what edition.//

Most of the KJVs that don't say which
edition they are turn out to be the KJV1769 Edition.
If it is an original 1611 Edition Bible it is worth over
$1,000,000 and one should know about it.
If it is a reprint KJV1611 Edition, it will say on it
that it is a KJV1611 Edition.

David Lamb: // I am probably asking something which
everyone else saw immediately, but what was
your point, Ed? //

My young friend from England: My point is that there
are people who don't even know which Bible they
are reading (but will claim that it is the only true one).
Here we have a male person who had no idea which
Bible he is using. On this same BB I've posted next
to a woman from the Netherlands who has two
PHDs and is the rector of a church.
Half the readers of this post need to run to a dictionary
to find out what a 'rector' is - probably the male half???

 

[David Lamb]

David Lamb: // I am probably asking something which
everyone else saw immediately, but what was
your point, Ed? //

My young friend from England: My point is that there
are people who don't even know which Bible they
are reading (but will claim that it is the only true one).
Here we have a male person who had no idea which
Bible he is using. On this same BB I've posted next
to a woman from the Netherlands who has two
PHDs and is the rector of a church.
Half the readers of this post need to run to a dictionary
to find out what a 'rector' is - probably the male half???

Nice to be called "young"

Thanks for the explanation. It makes much more sense to know that you were not comparing the 1611 version of Revelation 2.20 with the 1769 version of the same verse.

As for the word "rector", it means different things depending on the context. In the context of the Anglican church, for instance, I wouldn't be at all surprised if anyone (male or female) :laugh: had to resort to a dictionary. If you go to: http://www.churchsociety.org/issues_new/churchlocal/iss_churchlocal_jargon.asp (an explanation of the difference between a rector and a vicar) you'll see what I mean! I'm afraid that as far as what "rector" means in the context of a Dutch church, I would be guilty of having to look it up. My dictionary gives 5 meanings for "rector", and I imagine Meaning Number 3 below would be the one applicable in the Netherlands.

1. cleric in charge of Anglican parish: a member of the clergy of the Church of England who is in charge of a parish. Rectors, unlike vicars, were formerly entitled to the whole of the tithes from their parish.
2. cleric in charge of Roman Catholic congregation: a member of the Roman Catholic clergy who is in charge of a congregation, a college, or a religious community
3. cleric in charge of Episcopal parish: a member of the Episcopal clergy who is in charge of a parish
4. head of school: the head of some schools, colleges, or universities
5. officer elected by students: in some Scottish universities, somebody elected by students to represent them on the University Court.

Anyway, thanks again for your explanation.

 

[Aaron]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Of course you are writing from a US viewpoint. Over here, local churches that invoke autonomy do so (at least in my experience) for these reasons:

1. Because they believe that to be the biblically pattern

2. Because they feel their beliefs could be compromised if an organisation had some kind of authority over them. This happened in the so-called "Downgrade Controversy" of Spurgeon's day, and in the 1970s, when the president of the Baptist Union (of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) openly stated that he did not believe in the deity of Christ. Spurgeon's church left that union, and so did many local baptist churches in the 1970s.

I have not heard of a local church claiming autonomy in order to hide from public scrutiny. But the fact that some may claim autonomy for the wrong reasons does not make autonomy wrong.

I should have said, "When autonomy is invoked is a discussion..." Of course the Church is autonomous. That's a forgone conclusion in the U.S.

 

[IveyLeaguer]

... I am wary of any position that limits God's ability to act in order to realize God's plan for this world and God's people.

Me, too, but in this case God is the One who clearly spelled out the doctrine. And it is impossible for Him to act against Himself.

We will only know whether any pastor, male or female, is God's person for any church over time as we watch how their ministry prospers or declines. No human being can make a true judgment as to whether God has or has not called a pastor to a church. That is between that church and God.

Sorry, Tim , but nothing could be further from the truth. We already know what God says about it because He has already spoken on the matter.

My church is in the process of looking for a new pastor. We have talked about the possibility of calling a woman. Some members are absolutely opposed to the idea. Some hope we will call a woman. I think I stand with the largest group which wants to find the person God wants us to have. If that means a woman, then I will be comfortable with that. Tim Reynolds

Tim, the visible church is in the process of what scripture calls "falling away". The church as a whole is deep into apostasy, and it has now reached the conservative Baptists ranks. God has already said women can't teach men, much less Pastor. I plead with you to search the scriptures, and apologize for not having the time to dig them out myself and walk through the issue with you.

God Bless.

raying:

 

[EdSutton]

Me, too, but in this case God is the One who clearly spelled out the doctrine. And it is impossible for Him to act against Himself.

[snipped]

God has already said women can't teach men, much less Pastor. I plead with you to search the scriptures, and apologize for not having the time to dig them out myself and walk through the issue with you.

God Bless.

raying:

Well, I am in agreement that God has clearly spelled out the doctrine. And that it is impossible for Him to 'act against Himself,' as well.

And God did have something to say about women teaching men. But I don't see anything that says a woman cannot have the Spiritual gift of pastor/teacher. I refer you to my own post, #37 in this thread for more detail on this. BTW, I think it contains some 'spelled out doctrine', there.

Ed

Ed

 

[Amy.G]

Well, I am in agreement that God has clearly spelled out the doctrine. And that it is impossible for Him to 'act against Himself,' as well.

And God did have something to say about women teaching men. But I don't see anything that says a woman cannot have the Spiritual gift of pastor/teacher. I refer you to my own post, #37 in this thread for more detail on this. BTW, I think it contains some 'spelled out doctrine', there.

Ed

Ed

Ed, if it is forbidden for women to teach men, then how can a woman be a pastor without teaching men? Would she be a pastor of the 1st Baptist church for women? :laugh:

 

[EdSutton]

Ed, if it is forbidden for women to teach men, then how can a woman be a pastor without teaching men? Would she be a pastor of the 1st Baptist church for women? :laugh:

Amy.G, you are taking, as most do, "pastor" to be the equivalent of bishop/elder, hence an office in the local church. I do not make that eqiuvocation at all. I see pastor/teacher as a spiritual gift, not an office, and have posted the Scriptures backing such, several times here. As long as one takes the position you are advocating, one can make your argument. I just don't think your argument stacks up very well to Scripture.

For at least the sixth time on the BB, I will repeat this simple maxim.

The spiritual gifts, of which there are over twenty that are specifically named in Scripture, including one of which is the gift of pastor/teacher, are given, irrevocably, at the sole discretion of the Holy Spirit, and have no qualifications involved in their dissemination, nor are they gender specific. The offices of bishop/elder and deacon, by contrast, have several qualifications, one of which happens to be "the husband of one wife". That does make it gender specific, and for men.

Once one understands this, it becomes much clearer. The gift of "helps" is just as important to the body as is/was the gift of "apostle," and the gift of "languages," and the gift of "pastor/teacher," and the gift of "teacher" (Yes, one can have the gift of "teacher" and not have the gift of "pastor/teacher," and I, incidentally, happen to beone of those in that category), and the gift of "administrations," and the gift of "giving," ad nauseum.
Each and every one of the spiritual gifts had the same 'value' to the Holy Spirit in giving them - no more; no less! [They don't have exactly the same 'value' to the local church ("the best gifts"), but they all are, nonetheless, important, and not to be overlooked or ignored, IMO. And it is not for me to rank my own two gifts 'higher' than another who has a different gift or gifts, either, but the church does have the responsibility, IMO, to utilize all the gifts for 'benefit' to all the body.]

The Holy Spirit, IMO, did not make any mistake, neither in the dissemination of the gifts, nor did He allow any mistake in revelation in the giving of Scripture, as he 'bore along holy men of God who wrote'. So yes, the women, especially the ones with the gift of pastor/teacher, can and should 'shepherd' other women, teaching them, for that is entirely Biblical.

Do you now get what I am saying? A woman is not "a pastor", any more than a man is "a pastor", Biblically. Why?? 'Cause "Pastor" ain't an office for anyone, unlike bishop/elder, which is an office and is limited to men.

"May I say" that I believe (and others have confirmed) that I have the two gifts of "spiritual discernment" and "teacher." And BTW, no one has even suggested I have the gift of "pastor/teacher" FTR. And again, FTR, I do not hold or have ever held neither the office of bishop/elder nor deacon. So I believe I know what my two gifts are. Do you (or any other who may read this) know what your gift or gifts are?

Ed

 

[Allan]

Amy.G, you are taking, as most do, "pastor" to be the equivalent of bishop/elder, hence an office in the local church. I do not make that eqiuvocation at all. I see pastor/teacher as a spiritual gift, not an office, and have posted the Scriptures backing such, several times here. As long as one takes the position you are advocating, one can make your argument. I just don't think your argument stacks up very well to Scripture.

For at least the sixth time on the BB, I will repeat this simple maxim.

The spiritual gifts, of which there are over twenty that are specifically named in Scripture, including one of which is the gift of pastor/teacher, are given, irrevocably, at the sole discretion of the Holy Spirit, and have no qualifications involved in their dissemination, nor are they gender specific. The offices of bishop/elder and deacon, by contrast, have several qualifications, one of which happens to be "the husband of one wife". That does make it gender specific, and for men.

Once one understands this, it becomes much clearer. The gift of "helps" is just as important to the body as is/was the gift of "apostle," and the gift of "languages," and the gift of "pastor/teacher," and the gift of "teacher" (Yes, one can have the gift of "teacher" and not have the gift of "pastor/teacher," and I, incidentally, happen to beone of those in that category), and the gift of "administrations," and the gift of "giving," ad nauseum.
Each and every one of the spiritual gifts had the same 'value' to the Holy Spirit in giving them - no more; no less! [They don't have exactly the same 'value' to the local church ("the best gifts"), but they all are, nonetheless, important, and not to be overlooked or ignored, IMO. And it is not for me to rank my own two gifts 'higher' than another who has a different gift or gifts, either, but the church does have the responsibility, IMO, to utilize all the gifts for 'benefit' to all the body.]

The Holy Spirit, IMO, did not make any mistake, neither in the dissemination of the gifts, nor did He allow any mistake in revelation in the giving of Scripture, as he 'bore along holy men of God who wrote'. So yes, the women, especially the ones with the gift of pastor/teacher, can and should 'shepherd' other women, teaching them, for that is entirely Biblical.

Do you now get what I am saying? A woman is not "a pastor", any more than a man is "a pastor", Biblically. Why?? 'Cause "Pastor" ain't an office for anyone, unlike bishop/elder, which is an office and is limited to men.

"May I say" that I believe (and others have confirmed) that I have the two gifts of "spiritual discernment" and "teacher." And BTW, no one has even suggested I have the gift of "pastor/teacher" FTR. And again, FTR, I do not hold or have ever held neither the office of bishop/elder nor deacon. So I believe I know what my two gifts are. Do you (or any other who may read this) know what your gift or gifts are?

Ed

Is there the 'gift' of Apostle?
Is there a 'gift' of Prophet (not prophesy- that IS a 'gift')?
Is there a 'gift' of Evangelist?

If the answer "No" then so to should follow:
Is there a 'gift' of Pastor?

No, there is no 'gift' of Pastor to an individual for the scripture says THEY ARE GIVEN to the Church. The 4 fold ministries (some make the case for 5 and that to is fine). They are offices in and of the Church.

Please show where Pastor or any of the other 3 are individual gifting to people and not just Callings to a specific position IN and OF the Church (an office).

IF the 'gift' of apostle is as all other gifts given freely (in conjunction with 1 Cor 12) to differing members of the church body, then Apostleship should have never ceased, for it would have continued if it were a gifting of the Holy Spirit.

They are offices and the term Pastor is synonomous with Shepard and BOTH are related directly with term Bishop and Elder.

As I said before and will repeat in parphrase form:

Isn't if odd that God said He gives unto the Church:
Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors/Teachers

AND NOT

Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Bishop/Elder/Teachers.

He (God) uses a word that is the least used the Apostles in their writtings in discribing the office of Bishop/Elder when conveying His blessed Gifts to the Church He gave through those offices.

 

[Amy.G]

Ed, I'm sorry if I pushed the wrong button.
We have different definitions of pastor obviously. I believe the word pastor is synonomous with bishop and elder. They are spiritual overseers of the church. Pastor is not one of the spiritual gifts listed by Paul.

1 Corinthians 12
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

That is the first time I have heard anyone speak of the Pastor as such. I disagree with it as well.

 

[EdSutton]

Ed, I'm sorry if I pushed the wrong button.
We have different definitions of pastor obviously. I believe the word pastor is synonomous with bishop and elder. They are spiritual overseers of the church. Pastor is not one of the spiritual gifts listed by Paul.

1 Corinthians 12
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

You did not push any wrong button. We just do not fully agree on this, apparently. But why cite only one short passage that deals with the spiritual gifts to individuals to benefit the body? In fact, all of I Cor. 12-14 concerns spiritual gifts, including the parts on the gift of languages (tongues), much to the annoyance of some Baptists. :laugh:

Romans 12
Living Sacrifices to God
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Serve God with Spiritual Gifts
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. (Rom. 12:1-8 - NKJV)

(1 Corinthians 12)
Unity and Diversity in One Body
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[c] one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many. ...
18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. ...
(24b) But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best[d] gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way. (I Cor. 12: 12-14, 18-20, 24b-31 - NKJV)

Ephesians 4
Walk in Unity
1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you[a] all.
Spiritual Gifts
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:
“ When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”[b]
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first[c] descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. ( Eph. 4:1-16 - NKJV)

I just thought I'd quote a little more of I Cor. 12. :thumbs: {laugh} {laugh}

BTW, the above passages tell us what the gifts were for, and not once are they said to be given for "personal" benefit, that I can see, but rather for the
'whole' body, the Body of Christ, whether in a geographically unlimited manifestation, such as the BB, or in a "local church".

The phrase "grace given" (an infinitive, used as a noun, if my grammar does not fail me) is very close to the Greek "charismata" (noun), or "grace gifts", I think.

And last time I checked, Paul did write Ephesians. I'll look again. Yep! Still there! I agree fully that the bishops/elders are the overseers of the church. In fact the word "episcopE" is rendered as overseer in Acts 20:28, and bishop in I Tim. 3:1,2 and Tit. 1:5 by the KJV, indicating that, in fact, bishop is precisely the same as overseer. I just balk at reading and running Eph. 4:11 into I Tim. 3, and Tit. 1 "without just cause". Or in other words, I am (or at least am attempting to) comparing Scripture texts without attempting to textually combine Scriptures, here.

And I would also add that I believe that 'celibacy' may be a particular spiritual gift, just for information. (I Cor. 7:7) That has nothing to do with the topic, just threw it in for free. And that is not a gift I was given, BTW, as well.

We have inadvertantly allowed the Biblical teaching on the charismata to be 'cheapened' by our own language, I think. We blithely speak of someone who has the gift of a great singing voice, or musically gifted, or artistically gifted, to name a few, all the time. They are better described a talents, but the use persists. And when the individual spoken of is using this 'gift' for Christian purposes, we have diminished the Biblical meaning of "gift", and it becomes a short step to thinking that anything we do in serving the Lord, is a gift, and the "spiritual abilities" like the real spiritual gifts therefore (albeit unintended) are equalled to "offices".

Are you following me (and I got it all mostly from Paul, and the rest of the NT) now? :thumbs:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

That is the first time I have heard anyone speak of the Pastor as such. I disagree with it as well.

No kidding? Ever read Ephesians 4 without an already pre-conceived idea about it?
And did you note I did not speak of "the Pastor", but of the gift of pastor/teacher? Why do most capitalize that word? Seriously!

Ever consider how many times that 'elder' is used in the plural in the NT church, as well? There is not one instance where "one elder" (presbyter, literally) is over an individual church, as far as I can tell. Even Peter, the apostle, calls himself a "co-presbyter" rather than invoking apostleship, when writing to the church in one of his epistles. BTW, I love that term. "co-presbyter".

See my last post, #180, on some of this. I gotta' get to the hayfield, now.

Ed

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Ed I must take back what I said. I misunderstood your post. And I do as well see a difference between the gift and the office of Pastor. The greek word for Pastor is "Poimen" as I am sure you know and means a shepherd. I have seen and continue to see both men and women with a shepherds heart. I agree with you completely.