Sovereign choice of God part deux

[JonShaff]

Let's get back to the OP...

You are putting the onus on man not God.

You are saying unless someone humbles themselves, exercises faith(I agree, but you say faith is not a gift whereas I do) God can't save them.

God knew none would seek, none understood, none would humble themselves, so He took over and did it for them.

He did what we couldn't do.

Your comprehension is failing you. I'm saying what the Bible says GOD SAID is our responsibility. He said repent. He said believe. He said humble yourself. He said turn. He said bow. He said look to Him and live. He said trust in Him. He said give your life to Him.

If you have a problem with the commands of God, take it up with Him.

 

[JonShaff]

Hey, I admit I need to do more. But I do the very best I can with my allotted time.

I'm not trying to condemn you...I was wanting to follow up with wanting to know how do people respond?

 

[TCassidy]

He said repent.

By His enabling Grace, not by our own sin sick flesh.

He said believe.

By His enabling Grace, not by our own sin sick flesh.

He said humble yourself.

By His enabling Grace, not by our own sin sick flesh.

He said turn.

By His enabling Grace, not by our own sin sick flesh.

He said bow.

By His enabling Grace, not by our own sin sick flesh.

He said look to Him and live.

By His enabling Grace, not by our own sin sick flesh.

He said trust in Him.

By His enabling Grace, not by our own sin sick flesh.

He said give your life to Him.

By His enabling Grace, not by our own sin sick flesh.

If you have a problem with the commands of God, take it up with Him.

Nobody here has a problem with the commands of God. The problem is that some think they can please God in the flesh.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[JonShaff]

By His enabling Grace, not by our own sin sick flesh.

By His enabling Grace, not by our own sin sick flesh.

By His enabling Grace, not by our own sin sick flesh.

By His enabling Grace, not by our own sin sick flesh.

By His enabling Grace, not by our own sin sick flesh.

By His enabling Grace, not by our own sin sick flesh.

By His enabling Grace, not by our own sin sick flesh.

By His enabling Grace, not by our own sin sick flesh.

Nobody here has a problem with the commands of God. The problem is that some think they can please God in the flesh.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Show me where it says either a. He doesn't give us the ability to do those things. Or B. He has taken away the ability to do those things. In Scripture.

 

[JonShaff]

Also, I'm not saying God hasn't enabled us. I just don't call that regeneration, folks

 

[TCassidy]

Show me where it says either a. He doesn't give us the ability to do those things. Or B. He has taken away the ability to do those things. In Scripture.

I don't understand the question. Could you clarify, please?

 

[Yeshua1]

How can spiritual dead sinners do any of those things on their own?

 

[TCassidy]

Also, I'm not saying God hasn't enabled us. I just don't call that regeneration, folks

If it is not regeneration, giving us the ability to believe, repent, and obey, what is it?

 

[Yeshua1]

Also, I'm not saying God hasn't enabled us. I just don't call that regeneration, folks

God enabling Grcae towards us who get saved is regeneration...

 

[Yeshua1]

If it is not regeneration, giving us the ability to believe, repent, and obey, what is it?

Guess that would be ole prevelient Grace!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Your comprehension is failing you. I'm saying what the Bible says GOD SAID is our responsibility. He said repent. He said believe. He said humble yourself. He said turn. He said bow. He said look to Him and live. He said trust in Him. He said give your life to Him.

If you have a problem with the commands of God, take it up with Him.

My comprehension is just fine, thank you.

God commanded the Jews to keep the Law, knowing they could not.

God commands us to be holy, as He is holy.

God commands us to love Him with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.

None of us could do those commands.

However, the Christ did. He kept the whole Law, not breaking even one jot or tittle therein.

He is holy, as He is God.

He loved(loves) the Father with all His heart, soul, mind and strength.

He did for His ppl what they could not do. He lived in their stead, stood condemned in their place, died their death, and rose again for their justification.

Now, I am in Christ, and everything Christ did has been imputed to me. It is as if I had kept the Law perfectly, love Him with all my heart, soul, mind and strength.

I could not do this, so Jesus did it for little old me. Not one thing can I, or anyone else, add to the FINISHED work of Christ.

If I add ANYTHING, then that crosswork of the Christ was NOT finished on Calvary, but when I did 'something'.

 

[Yeshua1]

My comprehension is just fine, thank you.

God commanded the Jews to keep the Law, knowing they could not.

God commands us to be holy, as He is holy.

God commands us to love Him with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.

None of us could do those commands.

However, the Christ did. He keep the whole Law, not breaking even one jot or tittle therein.

He is holy, as He is God.

He loved(loves) the Father with all His heart, soul, mind and strength.

He did for His ppl what they could not do. He lived in their stead, stood condemned in their place, died their death, and rose again for their justification.

Now, I am in Christ, and everything Christ did has been imputed to me. It is as if I had keep the Law perfectly, love Him with all my heart, soul, mind and strength.

I could not do this, so Jesus did it for little old me. Not one thing can I, or anyone else, add to the FINISHED work of Christ.

If I add ANYTHING, then that crosswork of the Christ was NOT finished on Calvary, but when I did 'something'.

Hey, Calvin/Luther and especially paul would be proud!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hey, Calvin/Luther and especially paul would be proud!

Thank you my Brother. God has brought me from a really horrible theological trainwreck.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you my Brother. God has brought me from a really horrible theological trainwreck.

Hey, I was for over a decade a teaching elder in the AOG, and awhile in freewill baptist, so preaching to the club!

 

[JonC]

The physically dead person cannot hear nor can a physically dead person sin, that is why your analogy is illogical. Balaam heard the Spirit speak. Just because a person is spiritually dead that doesn't mean he cannot be convicted of sin (sin because they do not believe on for Lord Jesus).

Secondly, faith is not the gift in Eph. 2:8-9. It is the act of God saving you, that is the Gift. God's grace completing all of Justification, sanctification, and Glorification. That is the Gift of God.

This is a good point. It demonstrates the fallacy of using such analogies literally. The “spiritual dead” are not passive in their rejection of the message of the gospel (in fact, Peter’s sermon in Acts assigns guilt to the Jews who crucified Christ for their rejection; and Paul assigns guilt for Gentile rejection of what is understood). So they must hear the gospel in some manner. It is that they reject what is heard. They do not understand the gospel for what it is.

I agree with the Calvinists (and Classic Arminianism) that men cannot believe without the work of the Spirit towards belief. But you are right that the analogy of a “spiritual corpse” certainly has its limitations, and those limitations are often exceeded in debate.

 

[SovereignGrace]

nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Short Definition: dead, a corpse
Definition: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.
HELPS Word-studies
3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.
3498 /nekrós ("corpse-like") is used as a noun in certain contexts ("the dead"), especially when accompanied by the Greek definite article. The phrase, ek nekron ("from the dead"), lacks the Greek.

Nope, nekros means dead, lifeless, corpse, &c.

 

[JonC]

nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Short Definition: dead, a corpse
Definition: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.
HELPS Word-studies
3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.
3498 /nekrós ("corpse-like") is used as a noun in certain contexts ("the dead"), especially when accompanied by the Greek definite article. The phrase, ek nekron ("from the dead"), lacks the Greek.

Nope, nekros means dead, lifeless, corpse, &c.

What I mean is his point is right, that if we do not understand allegory and metaphor we can come up with all sorts of doctrine. This is apparent when you take "spiritually dead" (e.g., "let the dead bury the dead") in a more literal manner than is presented in Scripture (e.g., a corpse). A corpse cannot do anything to his benefit, this is true. But a corpse also cannot sin.

There are many words which are used in this way. When we take the Supper, the bread is not literally Jesus' flesh (although the word used is σῶμα, meaning Jesus' "body") and the wine is not literally blood (although the word αἷμα is used, and αἷμα means "blood"). We do not literally carry crosses when we take up our crosses (although those are the words uses) and we do not literally cut off body parts that offend us (although the language, in your mode of interpretation, may indicate otherwise).

 

[MennoSota]

What I mean is his point is right, that if we do not understand allegory and metaphor we can come up with all sorts of doctrine. This is apparent when you take "spiritually dead" (e.g., "let the dead bury the dead") in a more literal manner than is presented in Scripture (e.g., a corpse). A corpse cannot do anything to his benefit, this is true. But a corpse also cannot sin.

There are many words which are used in this way. When we take the Supper, the bread is not literally Jesus' flesh (although the word used is σῶμα, meaning Jesus' "body") and the wine is not literally blood (although the word αἷμα is used, and αἷμα means "blood"). We do not literally carry crosses when we take up our crosses (although those are the words uses) and we do not literally cut off body parts that offend us (although the language, in your mode of interpretation, may indicate otherwise).

Wait! What? Are you saying spiritual death is an allegory or a metaphor?

What, in Ephesians 2:1-10 gives us any indication that being "dead in our trespasses and sins" is an allegory or a metaphor?

When the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense.

There is only one time that we know Paul is speaking allegorically in his letters and it is found in Galatians. There he tells us that he is speaking allegorically. In Ephesians 2 there is no indication that Paul is presenting an allegory.
No, you are forcing an allegory upon the passage in order to sustain your own presupposition. This is poor hermeneutics on your part.

 

[SovereignGrace]

What I mean is his point is right, that if we do not understand allegory and metaphor we can come up with all sorts of doctrine. This is apparent when you take "spiritually dead" (e.g., "let the dead bury the dead") in a more literal manner than is presented in Scripture (e.g., a corpse). A corpse cannot do anything to his benefit, this is true. But a corpse also cannot sin.

There are many words which are used in this way. When we take the Supper, the bread is not literally Jesus' flesh (although the word used is σῶμα, meaning Jesus' "body") and the wine is not literally blood (although the word αἷμα is used, and αἷμα means "blood"). We do not literally carry crosses when we take up our crosses (although those are the words uses) and we do not literally cut off body parts that offend us (although the language, in your mode of interpretation, may indicate otherwise).

Brother, I did a 'copy and paste' of this post and placed in the 'Nekros thread' so I can address it there.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Wait! What? Are you saying spiritual death is an allegory or a metaphor?

What, in Ephesians 2:1-10 gives us any indication that being "dead in our trespasses and sins" is an allegory or a metaphor?

When the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense.

There is only one time that we know Paul is speaking allegorically in his letters and it is found in Galatians. There he tells us that he is speaking allegorically. In Ephesians 2 there is no indication that Paul is presenting an allegory.
No, you are forcing an allegory upon the passage in order to sustain your own presupposition. This is poor hermeneutics on your part.

I did a 'copy and paste' of this post and addressed it in the 'nekros thread'.