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Sovereign choice of God part deux

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SovereignGrace, Apr 15, 2017.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    What you’ve done, brother, is either take my words out of its context (ignored the “spirit” of was said, to use an illustration of this topic) or demonstrated a severe lack of understanding when it comes to interpreting Scripture. I lean towards the former with the explanation that my explanation was incomplete and therefore I bear the fault for your conclusions.

    In Ephesians 2 Paul is not talking of a “spiritual corpse” - EXCEPT as it defines the idea of spiritual death - but of living in our own lusts by the way of the world, in a state absent of the Life, not lacking animation or innate ability of its own. Spiritual death is a state of being objects of God’s wrath. No man is able to act towards salvation apart from God. This is a given. But when we apply “death” to a man spiritually, saying he is a “spiritual corpse” unable to do anything then we have severely misinterpreted God’s Word. The point is not the man’s spiritual ability (or lack thereof), it is not if the spirit itself is a corpse, but that it lacks the Life.

    So where we seem to differ is that I believe Jesus is the Life, and spiritual death is an absence of this Life (not the absence of some quality in and of the spirit itself). We probably differ on other terms as well. Jesus is the Light. I do not believe this means our spirits are in need of lanterns to see physical things around them. Jesus is the Vine. I do not believe this means Jesus is a literal vine. I believe proper hermeneutics necessitates the ability to understand these things, that one meaning does not dictate or cross over to the other.
     
    #81 JonC, Apr 17, 2017
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Edited - I replied in full on the nekros thread. In part, what you are missing is that spiritual life is not a quality that originates in the spirit but the presence of the Life. Jesus is the Life. He is the Vine, the Bread of Life, the Light....this does not mean we literally eat Jesus, or that Jesus is literally a plant. We have to be careful when we start crossing over meanings. I'll take this up on the other thread.
     
    #82 JonC, Apr 17, 2017
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Just wondering.....has anyone said that spiritually dead sinners do any of those things on their own?
     
    #83 JonC, Apr 17, 2017
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  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Some seemed to be stating that the sinner can freely choose to receive Jesus though!
     
    #84 Yeshua1, Apr 17, 2017
  5. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I know i cannot be part of the "Some" because i've never said we can come to God in our own power. And if i did, Please quote and i will ask for forgiveness for being a liar.
     
    #85 JonShaff, Apr 17, 2017
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Did not say that you did!
     
    #86 Yeshua1, Apr 17, 2017
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  7. jpope

    jpope New Member
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    The Bible says God hardened Pharoah's heart. Our hearts are hardened from birth because we are born in sin. Only God can remove the scales from our eyes and unplug our ears to hear.
     
    #87 jpope, Apr 18, 2017
  8. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    You don't understand the Bible concerning this particular event. God acted in His perfect Character and as a result Pharaoh hardened his heart with pride. God didn't reach into His heart and turn a dial. Stop letting others think for you.
     
    #88 JonShaff, Apr 18, 2017
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  9. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Exodus 8:15
    But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he (Pharaoh) hardened his(own) heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said
     
    #89 JonShaff, Apr 18, 2017
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Pharoah did what he desired to do, and the Lord just completetd the hardening purpose to be the enemy of the exodus, in much the same way that God used Judas to fulfill scriptures!
     
    #90 Yeshua1, Apr 18, 2017
  11. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    What did He do? Reach into his heart and turn the dial to "All the way Hard"?
     
    #91 JonShaff, Apr 18, 2017
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, as he just finished what Pharoah had started!
     
    #92 Yeshua1, Apr 18, 2017
  13. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    LOL that is absurd!
     
    #93 JonShaff, Apr 18, 2017
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How so? Paul did state that there are vessals of destruction prepared beforehand, such as the Pharoah!
     
    #94 Yeshua1, Apr 18, 2017
  15. jpope

    jpope New Member
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    Exodus 9
    12 And the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

    Exodus 10
    1Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them,
    2 and that you may tell in the hearing of your son, and of your grandson, how I made a mockery of the Egyptians and how I performed My signs among them, that you may know that I am the Lord."

    20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go.

    27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.

    Exodus 11
    9 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Pharaoh will not listen to you, so that My wonders will be multiplied in the land of Egypt."
    10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh; yet the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go out of his land.

    Romans 9
    14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
    15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
    16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
    17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth."
    18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
    19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
    20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
    21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
    22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
    23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
    24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
     
    #95 jpope, Apr 18, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  16. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I've already addressed this....God was being God and pharaoh was being pharaoh. God worked, pharaoh responded. God did according to His perfect purpose and plan (as He always does) and Pharaoh hardened his heart as a reactionary response. That's how "God" hardened his heart.

    Just like if you said, "Call me at midnight again and we are done!" And then i call you at midnight. Did i harden your heart? Sure, indirectly. But you hardened your heart to me as a reactionary measure to what i did. Pretty simple brother.
     
    #96 JonShaff, Apr 18, 2017
  17. jpope

    jpope New Member
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    Sorry, but my post was incomplete. I am just quoting scripture. And I don't agree with your analogy. I would not compare what I do or do not do to what God does or does not do.

    Maybe I misunderstand your position. Are you making the position for "free will"? Or for the doctrine of concurrence/compatibility?

    And I am late to the game on this thread.
     
    #97 jpope, Apr 18, 2017
  18. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    What i described is the plain meaning of the text without any theological presuppositions.
     
    #98 JonShaff, Apr 18, 2017
  19. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Romans 9:16-18
    [16]So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
    [17]For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”
    [18]So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
     
    #99 MennoSota, Apr 18, 2017
  20. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    This is a poor attempt to squirm out from your failed argument. The scriptures are clear that God hardened Pharoah's heart. That may make you uncomfortable, but the scriptures are clear. Suck it up and own that you are wrong in this area.
     
    #100 MennoSota, Apr 18, 2017
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