Sovereignty, Free Will, & Romans 9

[Logos1]

Blame God, call it Theology, Consider yourself a Theologian

Instead of just being intellectually lazy and blaming all things on God even a little mental effort will prove Paul shreds Calvinism from one end of the Gospel to the other. One good example is found in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 when he talks about making his weaker brothers in Christ stumble. Actually this isn't written by Paul it's really written through Paul by the Holy Spirit. Therefore you can believe Calvin or the Holy Spirit--doesn't seem like much of a choice to me; however, some of our brethren mistakenly elevate Calvin to the supreme authority on all matters even surpassing Paul and the Holy Spirit.

If the Holy Spirit tells us to watch our behavior so we don't make our brothers in Christ stumble then obviously God is not dictating the will of those who might stumble. Their individual will comes into play since their will and decisions and subsequent behavior is influenced by the actions of other Christians.

If God was dictating their will the actions of other Christians wouldn't sway them against God's will. His Will would be the sole arbiter of their actions. Obviously they have a free will that can be influenced by the teachings of God, the behavior of others, and any number of other factors that ultimately influence their decisions and choices. And, that straight from the mouth of the Holy Spirit through Paul's writing.

A similar example comes to us over and over through out the book of Proverbs. Think of all the times we are admonished to keep the right company and stay away from bad influences lest we fall sway to the destructive power of bad influences. Clearly if God dictated our will the influences of others would be of no consequence and Proverbs wouldn't be in the bible.

And back to the New Testament in Hebrews 6:18 we are told that God can't lie yet Jarthur001's position (all things happen by God) would dictate that God do something He can't do like make people lie. I don't know, maybe its just me but perhaps somebody should have a long talk with self and reevaluate their theology.

The whole bible from start to finish bankrupts the notion of Calvinism--it is a gross miscarriage of the scripture to isolate one passage and try to build a theology on it independent of what the balance of scripture as a whole teaches.

In the next few days I'll try to find the time to apply a little logic to some of the bedrock, fundamental passages of Calvinism such as Romans 9 and deal with those exciting passage of Calvinistic fame. You don't have to be
a great thinker to work through them and see that God doesn't dictate an individual's will. Seeing how these verses compliment the bible as a whole instead of being in conflict with it is so much more satisfying than just being intellectually lazy and blaming bad behavior on God.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

I'm having more fun with my sign-off than anytime since Mel use to whine about my not accepting his sarcasm. I think it's kind of cute that jarthur001 worries about my pride, but something just doesn't add up.

If all things happen by God as he said in his last post then if I'm prideful then God had to make me that way and if he is enjoying serving the King as he said--why does he question how God wanted to make me?

Do I detect a bit of Calvinist hypocrisy in my good friend from West Virginia?
:tongue3:

 

[convicted1]

1) Will
2) Purpose
3) Sovereignity


Bro. Jarthur,

I will attempt to answers these the very best way I know how, and will do so with scripture to back them up.

1)WILL

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Mark 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev. 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

2Pet. 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father

I believe the "we both" means Jew and Gentile/Greek because of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.

Now, God's will is much more than I think any of us can truly comprehend. First off, God's will was to send His Son, Jesus, to save us from our sins. Secondly, by Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, it gave ALL OF US access to the Throne of Grace by breaking down the "middle wall of partition", making us "one" with the Jews. With those few scriptures I just posted, I think I have showed you what God's will is.

2) Purpose

Now on to God's purpose. Here are some I think will prove His purpose.

1Tim. 1:1 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Rom. 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

So God's purpose is to save people from their sins. Those who die/died lost, chose not to believe the gospel, and died lost on account of it. Grace is offered to all, but only those who will humble themselves under God's mighty hand, will be saved.

Sovereignity

Now, this is gonna be a "toughie" to answer in the way you want me to. Y'all have sovereignity confused with complete, total, and utter domination. God is sovereign in the sense that there are two roads laid before us. One that leads to heaven, the other to hell.

Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

But we have choices to make, and we will reap whatever comes from that choice, whether it be good or bad.

Josh. 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Deut. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Deut. 8:20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

Josh. 5:6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.

Jerem. 29:16 Know that thus saith the LORD of the king that sitteth upon the throne of David, and of all the people that dwelleth in this city, and of your brethren that are not gone forth with you into captivity;

17 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will send upon them the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, and will make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.

18 And I will persecute them with the sword, with the famine, and with the pestilence, and will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse, and an astonishment, and an hissing, and a reproach, among all the nations whither I have driven them:

19 Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.


So in summation, God's will, purpose, and sovereignity boils down to one person, His Son Jesus Christ. God is sovereign over the plan of salvation, and over the two destinations(meaning he presdinated the ways; ) those that believe will go to heaven, those who fail to believe will go to hell, and then to the lake of fire. It's our choice that determines that outcome. God allows us the choices we make, and we will answer for them!! May God bless!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Jarthur001]

Instead of just being intellectually lazy

Hello Logos,

Being that you use this phrase as if it is your pet phrase, please clearly state what you mean.

Do you mean it is clear I have not study this?

Do you mean it is clear I have never been to a school of higher education?

Do you mean that once again you are unable to follow the logic, therefore everyone else must be crazy?

or….What? Spell it out my friend. Don't be shy.

and blaming all things on God even a little mental effort

Aaaaw now here you claim I do not think. The old lame noggin.
Does this charge apply to all that disagree with you? As in..."They do not see it my way, therefore they must be nuts."

Or is this all you have to offer when you fall so far behind in a debate?

will prove Paul shreds Calvinism from one end of the Gospel to the other.

We shall see. Please carry on.

One good example is found in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 when he talks about making his weaker brothers in Christ stumble.

You are clearly proof texting again. This only proves you are behind in the polls.

You run and grab one verse and cry…SEE THIS PROVES I'M RIGHT!!! One can just see the glitter in the eyes as you shine your golden find that you are about to give to the world, that will at last save you from the shame you have been through.

This one will work ....will it not?

When you are shown you err, and you repent from you deeds...right?

No, but rather you simply run get another one.

This marks, what 4 times? Maybe five times, that you reach for a life saving verse to support your devastated logic that is now on life support. Will this one hold up?

Stay put folks...we shall see.

Actually this isn't written by Paul it's really written through Paul by the Holy Spirit.

Actually both. Men were moved as they wrote.

Therefore you can believe Calvin or the Holy Spirit-

Yet another common yet foolish statement by those that don't know the subject as well as they try to let on.

Did you know that most Calvinist have never read John Calvin? So much for that idea.

however, some of our brethren mistakenly elevate Calvin to the supreme authority on all matters even surpassing Paul and the Holy Spirit.

Hold on. I was just playing and having fun with you till I reached this line.

This is no longer a game. I can have fun as much as anyone with silly statements like we have exchanged.
But now you have crossed the line into my faith and salvation. Please understand, I mean what I am about to say, and am in no way joking.

YOU NAME ME ONE PERSON!!!!!!...
ONE that has done this!!

JUST ONE!!!

OR..take it back in full shame!!!

Once this is done, I will gladly address your proof texting.

 

[Rippon]

Paul shreds Calvinism from one end of the Gospel to the other.

You know that Paul proclaimed the gospel -- but didn't write a Gospel -- don't you? Basic stuff -- Matthew,Mark,Luke and John are the writers of the four Gospels.

Paul,in authoring the Epistles rather brings out full Calvinism.

Therefore you can believe Calvin or the Holy Spirit.

Trash-talking comes from your keystrokes.

some of our brethren mistakenly elevate Calvin to the supreme authority on all matters even surpassing Paul and the Holy Spirit.

Saying stupid things such as the above will not advance your cause.Why lie in such an blatant manner?

The whole bible from start to finish bankrupts the notion of Calvinism--it is a gross miscarriage of the scripture to isolate one passage and try to build a theology on it independent of what the balance of scripture as a whole teaches.

So you are under the impression that Calvinism is based on one passage from the Word of God? Please study before you say such junk.

 

[Jarthur001]

1) Will
2) Purpose
3) Sovereignity


Bro. Jarthur,

I will attempt to answers these the very best way I know how, and will do so with scripture to back them up.

1)WILL

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Mark 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev. 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

2Pet. 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father

I believe the "we both" means Jew and Gentile/Greek because of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.

Now, God's will is much more than I think any of us can truly comprehend. First off, God's will was to send His Son, Jesus, to save us from our sins. Secondly, by Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, it gave ALL OF US access to the Throne of Grace by breaking down the "middle wall of partition", making us "one" with the Jews. With those few scriptures I just posted, I think I have showed you what God's will is.

2) Purpose

Now on to God's purpose. Here are some I think will prove His purpose.

1Tim. 1:1 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Rom. 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

So God's purpose is to save people from their sins. Those who die/died lost, chose not to believe the gospel, and died lost on account of it. Grace is offered to all, but only those who will humble themselves under God's mighty hand, will be saved.

Sovereignity

Now, this is gonna be a "toughie" to answer in the way you want me to. Y'all have sovereignity confused with complete, total, and utter domination. God is sovereign in the sense that there are two roads laid before us. One that leads to heaven, the other to hell.

Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

But we have choices to make, and we will reap whatever comes from that choice, whether it be good or bad.

Josh. 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Deut. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Deut. 8:20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

Josh. 5:6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.

Jerem. 29:16 Know that thus saith the LORD of the king that sitteth upon the throne of David, and of all the people that dwelleth in this city, and of your brethren that are not gone forth with you into captivity;

17 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will send upon them the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, and will make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.

18 And I will persecute them with the sword, with the famine, and with the pestilence, and will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse, and an astonishment, and an hissing, and a reproach, among all the nations whither I have driven them:

19 Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.


So in summation, God's will, purpose, and sovereignity boils down to one person, His Son Jesus Christ. God is sovereign over the plan of salvation, and over the two destinations(meaning he presdinated the ways; ) those that believe will go to heaven, those who fail to believe will go to hell, and then to the lake of fire. It's our choice that determines that outcome. God allows us the choices we make, and we will answer for them!! May God bless!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

Hello Willis,

Thanks for your long reply. However, you did not address the dilemma. Lets look again at the rather peculiar quote.

You confuse will with purpose, sovereignty, providence, etc.

Now the dilemma. Lets say God's will is to make a earth. This is what he desires.
Does he not purpose to make a earth as well? How can you not will something yet at the same time purpose it???

You show me that and you have a coke on me.

I say it cannot be done. Yet you can read all those that believed this was such a great statement. I believe it was silly.

 

[webdog]

Now the dilemma. Lets say God's will is to make a earth. This is what he desires.
Does he not purpose to make a earth as well? How can you not will something yet at the same time purpose it???

Where is the dilemma? It's God's will that we do not sin. Does He not purpose to make us not sin as well? How can you not will something yet at the same time purpose it?

 

[freeatlast]

Hello Willis,

Thanks for your long reply. However, you did not address the dilemma. Lets look again at the rather peculiar quote.




Now the dilemma. Lets say God's will is to make a earth. This is what he desires.
Does he not purpose to make a earth as well? How can you not will something yet at the same time purpose it???

You show me that and you have a coke on me.

I say it cannot be done. Yet you can read all those that believed this was such a great statement. I believe it was silly.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

His will is that no one perish, but come to repentance, but He does not purpose the will to happen. He does not always get His will.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My friend John in this video clip gives me a high view of God that I do not know if I will ever understand. John's life and not pride, brings God glory.

http://www.farese.com/video2.htm

God Bless & a hearty AMEN to John Farese; one of my heroes & to Abe Lincoln (who just happens to have a Welsh Calvinist ancestry):love2:

 

[Jarthur001]

Where is the dilemma? It's God's will that we do not sin. Does He not purpose to make us not sin as well? How can you not will something yet at the same time purpose it?

I believe this is the point of salvation is it not? Are we not saved from our sins? God's will is to have a nation/race/church/kingdom that follows him. Someday the elect by God's grace will never sin.

Do you disagree?

 

[webdog]

I believe this is the point of salvation is it not? Are we not saved from our sins? God's will is to have a nation/race/church/kingdom that follows him. Someday the elect by God's grace will never sin.

Do you disagree?

I agree with that. However, for your point to stand it would have to be God's will that we do not sin in the future, not presently. It's His will that we do not sin now, yet we do.

 

[Jarthur001]

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

His will is that no one perish, but come to repentance, but He does not purpose the will to happen. He does not always get His will.

More proof texting....love it.

I love this passage because those that post it so often, feel as if they have proven God is weak and not able to do what he wishes to do. If only poor God had the power, he would overcome and save the whole world, so the view goes.

It is clear that those that make such claims have never studied this passage, nor do they know the power of God. This passage is just the other way.

Let me ask you this freeatlast. If God would have saved Adam and Eve before Cain was born, would God have saved all of mankind?

 

[webdog]

It is clear that those that make such claims have never studied this passage, nor do they know the power of God. This passage is just the other way.

Of course we haven't

 

[Jarthur001]

I agree with that. However, for your point to stand it would have to be God's will that we do not sin in the future, not presently. It's His will that we do not sin now, yet we do.

Not so my friend. One only needs to understand the full story of salvation.

Justification Sanctification Glorification.

That is the full plan/purpose of God, and it is also His will. I do believe his will is on track.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not so my friend. One only needs to understand the full story of salvation.

Justification Sanctification Glorification.

That is the full plan/purpose of God, and it is also His will. I do believe his will is on track.

Now I'm curious....Let me ask you Web, since Ive never really spent time (more than a year at least) in a Non- Reformed Church......do they spend time teaching these doctrines in detail.....I'm getting the impression that the answer is no....that doctrine has very little emphasis & the focus is Just Bible. Please set me straight since Im new to the whole Baptist thing...... In a prior life, I was a Presbyterian so I dont want to make assumptions.

 

[webdog]

Now I'm curious....Let me ask you Web, since Ive never really spent time (more than a year at least) in a Non- Reformed Church......do they spend time teaching these doctrines in detail.....I'm getting the impression that the answer is no....that doctrine has very little emphasis & the focus is Just Bible. Please set me straight since Im new to the whole Baptist thing...... In a prior life, I was a Presbyterian so I dont want to make assumptions.

I haven't spent any time in a non reformed church...so I can't tell you.

 

[webdog]

Not so my friend. One only needs to understand the full story of salvation.

Justification Sanctification Glorification.

That is the full plan/purpose of God, and it is also His will. I do believe his will is on track.

You are confusing His plan of redemption with His will. Do you think it was His will that Lucifer and Adam both rebelled?

I do understand the full story of salvation.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I haven't spent any time in a non reformed church...so I can't tell you.

So you go to a reformed church?

 

[webdog]

So you go to a reformed church?

I was raised in one, and my current pastor is reformed as well. Great guy who doesn't shove his theology down your throat unlike many on this board...and does what he does out of love for others, not by command only. I admire and respect him even though we disagree on a number of topics.

 

[Jarthur001]

You are confusing His plan of redemption with His will. Do you think it was His will that Lucifer and Adam both rebelled?

I do understand the full story of salvation.

Again how do you remove God's will from his plan? It was part of God's plan even if you say it is part of His allowed will.

It all goes back to two things. Gods power, and his desire.

If I desire ice cream I buy it. If God desires something, he makes a plan to bring this about. Salvation was His idea, to bring about his will. How could you see it any other way?

Adam fell, not only because Adam desired to sin, but also because it ws not Gods will/desire to hinder Adam when it is clear he had the power to hinder Adam.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I was raised in one, and my current pastor is reformed as well. Great guy who doesn't shove his theology down your throat unlike many on this board...and does what he does out of love for others, not by command only. I admire and respect him even though we disagree on a number of topics.

Thanks....maybe someone else who isnt from a Reformed Church could bring me up to speed.