Sovereignty, Free Will, & Romans 9

[Robert Snow]

More proof texting....love it.

I love this passage because those that post it so often, feel as if they have proven God is weak and not able to do what he wishes to do. If only poor God had the power, he would overcome and save the whole world, so the view goes.

It is clear that those that make such claims have never studied this passage, nor do they know the power of God. This passage is just the other way.

Let me ask you this freeatlast. If God would have saved Adam and Eve before Cain was born, would God have saved all of mankind?

I love you Calvinists. You ask questions and then regardless of what the answer is you say the problem is the passage has not been studied out enough and then you ask another question. Just more proof of the dishonesty of the Calvinists.

Let me ask you: If we moved to the sun would our feet get hot?

 

[Jarthur001]

I love you Calvinists.

ok

You ask questions and then regardless of what the answer is you say the problem is the passage has not been studied out enough and then you ask another question.

have you read the book? Not only logic, but context rest on my side.

Just more proof of the dishonesty of the Calvinists.

Hold on. Where have I been dishonesty?

Let me ask you: If we moved to the sun would our feet get hot?

One cannot make it ontp the Sun, before one burns up. I would say hot feet is little to worry about here and has nothing to do with the book.

 

[webdog]

Again how do you remove God's will from his plan? It was part of God's plan even if you say it is part of His allowed will.

I said plan of redemption, not plan.

It all goes back to two things. Gods power, and his desire.

Does God desire sorrow?

If I desire ice cream I buy it. If God desires something, he makes a plan to bring this about. Salvation was His idea, to bring about his will. How could you see it any other way?

That's not only linear, but it is viewing an infinite perspective from a finite one.

 

[quantumfaith]

Actually, one would bake in radiation long before ever feeling the effects of "thermo" heat.

 

[Logos1]

It's always a blesssing to meet a new brother in Christ

"Trash-talking, saying stupid things, lie in blatant manner, you say such junk" Rippon

Charmed to make your acquaintance Rippon!

"Trash-talking, saying stupid things, lie in blatant manner, you say such junk" Rippon

I guess this is just a fancy way of saying hello down in ol' South Korea.

"Trash-talking, saying stupid things, lie in blatant manner, you say such junk" Rippon

Yur lookin prettier than a peach blossom on a bed of rose pedals yourself. (I can trade compliments with the best of them)

"Trash-talking, saying stupid things, lie in blatant manner, you say such junk" Rippon

Would you mind if I use this for my new sign-off sometimes? I reckon I'd be mighty beholden to you and I know Jarthur would get a kick out of it.

"Trash-talking, saying stupid things, lie in blatant manner, you say such junk" Rippon

And God Bless you too good buddy!

 

[Logos1]

Pet phrases aside

Greetings Jarthur,

I can pretty well gauge how well I’m doing against you by seeing how you ratchet up the shrillness, claim merit for yourself, put words in my mouth etc. I’m feeling more comfortable all the time.

I suppose if you demand something you feel it is automatic that you get your way—hey brother if that is your opinion of your sovereignty then let me offer you a hearty Hail to the Chief!

This is no longer a game. I can have fun as much as anyone with silly statements like we have exchanged.
But now you have crossed the line into my faith and salvation. Please understand, I mean what I am about to say, and am in no way joking.

Brother you do tickle me at times. My friend what you choose to blow a gasket over is ultimately your choice—don’t go Calvinist now and blame God for it.

I’ve been on boards long enough to not let them make me angry, frustrated, or feel offended by what others do. I don’t get upset with names hurled at me, specific vitriol, or childishness in general. If you let boards frustrate you then you know its time to leave or at least take a break for a while.

My West Virginia friend might I humbly suggest you might want to take a break for a little while till the blood pressure subsides a tad bit.

Here’s a double God bless you Jarthur—it seems you need twice as much tonight.

"Trash-talking, saying stupid things, lie in blatant manner, you say such junk" Rippon

And God Bless you too good buddy!

 

[Logos1]

If we were keeping score Calvinism would be getting Skunked

You could do this forever and never run out of examples. Here is yet another prime piece of proof positive that scripture doesn’t follow the Calvinist doctrine of all things being predestined by God.

In Ephesians 6:12 Paul warns that we fight not against flesh and blood, but powers and principalities. We are told to protect ourselves against these powers. Obviously if God determined everything by Calvinist fiat Paul wouldn't need or bother to advise us how to avoid undesirable influences since these sinister influences wouldn't be able to influence our lives. Unless our actions, behavior, and choices allowed evil to enter into our lives it would be a waste to include this warning in the bible. In fact we wouldn't need a bible at all if God didn't see fit to provide us with guidance that directed us toward his will and away from influences that take us out of his will.

Again, anytime you think your way through a biblical scenario Calvinism melts away like ice on a hot summer day.

It seems God would be bored if he predestined everything for every individual. Sure he can look in the future and see what we will do, but he must get some satisfaction out of seeing us weigh options, not know the outcome, ask what would God want me to do, pray to him for guidance, and make a conscious decision to honor him with our choices.

He can watch us grow over time and become more like him because we want to--not because he forces us to.

Would we honor God more by choosing to follow his will for our lives, His scripture, and teachings by free will or because He superimposed it on us.

Are you prouder of your children when you make them do the right thing or when you see them do it of their own volition? Don't you think God feels the same way?

And, PS Jarthur--about Abe Lincoln being Calvinist--it seems his actions dictate otherwise. He asked the nation to pray for an end to the Civil War--seems he thought it could end sooner or later based on how events played out and its timing or winner wasn't settled yet. He also wanted to forgive the South and not punish them thinking that would make their reentry into the Union a smoother process. If he didn't think that was an issue up for grabs then why try to influence people's actions--it would have been easier on him just to let the powerful forces that wanted to punish the South have their way. If you can find documented proof that Lincoln stated he was a Calvinist then put it up--otherwise I guess we'll just have to go by his behavior which is clearly non Calvinist.

"Trash-talking, saying stupid things, lie in blatant manner, you say such junk" Rippon

And God Bless you too good buddy!

 

[Jarthur001]

Greetings Jarthur,

I can pretty well gauge how well I’m doing against you by seeing how you ratchet up the shrillness, claim merit for yourself, put words in my mouth etc. I’m feeling more comfortable all the time.

I suppose if you demand something you feel it is automatic that you get your way—hey brother if that is your opinion of your sovereignty then let me offer you a hearty Hail to the Chief!



Brother you do tickle me at times. My friend what you choose to blow a gasket over is ultimately your choice—don’t go Calvinist now and blame God for it.

I’ve been on boards long enough to not let them make me angry, frustrated, or feel offended by what others do. I don’t get upset with names hurled at me, specific vitriol, or childishness in general. If you let boards frustrate you then you know its time to leave or at least take a break for a while.

My West Virginia friend might I humbly suggest you might want to take a break for a little while till the blood pressure subsides a tad bit.

Here’s a double God bless you Jarthur—it seems you need twice as much tonight.

"Trash-talking, saying stupid things, lie in blatant manner, you say such junk" Rippon

And God Bless you too good buddy!

I sleep well Logos. Do not be fooled by the size of type as if messages my BP.


NOW...One last chance....

Produce one name that says Calvin is higher than Holy Spirit or stand in shame before the whole board . You say there are many. It should be rather easy to produce one.


Come now....don't be shy.

And as to the many free-willers, that I have debated with,....
You have seen his words and have said nothing. Do you also agree?? Shame on you as well.

I know of NO Calvinist that would claim this. Where is the proof??

 

[Jarthur001]

I said plan of redemption, not plan.
Does God desire sorrow?
That's not only linear, but it is viewing an infinite perspective from a finite one.

lets see....

Plan of redemption...is not a plan? Say what??

This gets better all the time.

 

[webdog]

lets see....

Plan of redemption...is not a plan? Say what??

This gets better all the time.

Where was the plan that would lead to man not sinning...you remember...it was His will that man not sin, right? Or...are His plans always in response to man's plans?

Does God desire sorrow?

 

[Logos1]

A Great example of Calvinist Logic

NOW...One last chance....

Produce one name that says Calvin is higher than Holy Spirit or stand in shame before the whole board . You say there are many. It should be rather easy to produce one.


Come now....don't be shy.

Hmmm, let’s use dear old Calvinist logic to reason through this shall we!

We know God can’t lie Hebrews 6:18 and we know Calvinist logic tells us everything is of God therefore whatever I say God is responsible for it so it has to be true!!!

So by simple, straight-forward Calvinist logic God was saying it through me.

Now there you go, God is your answer!!!!!!!

Your welcome.

You just got to love how Jarthur and Calvinist logic dig the hole deeper with every twist.

Calvinism is like quicksand—the more you struggle the deeper into the abyss you sink.

"Trash-talking, saying stupid things, lie in blatant manner, you say such junk" Rippon

And God Bless you too good buddy!

 

[Rippon]

L1: You open yourself up to quite warranted criticism when you make completely unfounded remarks. Go back to my post #44 and everything I said is matched-up quite reasonably with facts. Look at the context.

You come rushing in here like a bull in a china shop thinking we will welcome your falsehoods with open arms?! Fresh out of the gate spouting stuff that is complete rubbish. And you ask "Where's the respect?" LOL

 

[Jarthur001]

Hmmm, let’s use dear old Calvinist logic to reason through this shall we!

We know God can’t lie Hebrews 6:18 and we know Calvinist logic tells us everything is of God therefore whatever I say God is responsible for it so it has to be true!!!

So by simple, straight-forward Calvinist logic God was saying it through me.

Now there you go, God is your answer!!!!!!!

Your welcome.

You just got to love how Jarthur and Calvinist logic dig the hole deeper with every twist.

Calvinism is like quicksand—the more you struggle the deeper into the abyss you sink.

"Trash-talking, saying stupid things, lie in blatant manner, you say such junk" Rippon

And God Bless you too good buddy!

So you have NOTHING!!! Not one bit of proof, that "MANY CALVINIST BELIEVE CALVIN IS HIGHER THAN HOLY SPIRIT".

....just more hot air was it? Hot air is why I started posting on this thread. As you said...

You confuse will with purpose, sovereignty, providence, etc.

:BangHead::BangHead:

It is easy to make statements. I can say elephants are green, but if I cannot produce a green elephant, it is a waste of words. Lies and falsehoods does not gain respect. I will walk away from your statements and leave you in peace. I'll keep my debate to those that disagree with me, without falling into falsehoods.

Good day..

 

[Jarthur001]

Actually, one would bake in radiation long before ever feeling the effects of "thermo" heat.

indeed.

 

[Jarthur001]

Does God desire sorrow?
.

Philippians 1:29 (KJV) 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

 

[Jarthur001]

Where was the plan that would lead to man not sinning.

We have talked about this...Salvation...which in the end is Glorification

..you remember...it was His will that man not sin, right?

Yes

Or...are His plans always in response to man's plans?

no...He knew man would sin from the beginning. His plan is to save a people unto himself from their sins. This salvation, he has planned to be in 3 phrases...the end of which is Glorification.

You cannot remove Gods will from his plan. No matter how hard you try.

 

[psalms109:31]

trust

That is it, it starts with trust not to trust in our own understanding our beliefs but trust in the Lord. It is the Lord job that we believe. Trust is not a work but these are the ones He will keep and trust comes from us a verb.

 

[psalms109:31]

Word

The believers were given on by the Lord to believe on Him by His word that if you believe in Him you shall be saved.

I am pretty sure that if Paul was talking to non believers that heard the message of Christ that they were given on by the Lord not to believe, if you do not believe you shall be condemned

 

[Robert Snow]

So you have NOTHING!!! Not one bit of proof, that "MANY CALVINIST BELIEVE CALVIN IS HIGHER THAN HOLY SPIRIT"...

Many people condemn in words what they do in practice.

Now this might be true of many Calvinists, judging by their writings and many things posted here.

 

[webdog]

Philippians 1:29 (KJV) 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Where does that say God desires sorrow? Man, you are reaching here!

We have talked about this...Salvation...which in the end is Glorification

Wrong. This is after the fact, after man violated God's will that he shouldn't sin. Where was the plan in KEEPING man from violating His will?

no...He knew man would sin from the beginning. His plan is to save a people unto himself from their sins. This salvation, he has planned to be in 3 phrases...the end of which is Glorification.

Again, if you are going to maintain His will and purpose cannot be separated, then man would have never sinned, as you even admit it was His will for man not to sin.