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Sovereignty, Free Will, & Romans 9

J

Jarthur001

Active Member
webdog said:
Where does that say God desires sorrow? Man, you are reaching here!
Wrong. This is after the fact, after man violated God's will that he shouldn't sin. Where was the plan in KEEPING man from violating His will?
Again, if you are going to maintain His will and purpose cannot be separated, then man would have never sinned, as you even admit it was His will for man not to sin.
Click to expand...

Ok..you reject that verse.

You need more?

2 cor 7

For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.

 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
 
webdog

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jarthur001 said:
Ok..you reject that verse.

You need more?

2 cor 7

For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.
10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
Click to expand...
I reject pulling verses from context describing man's sorrow, absolutely.

Do you have an actual verse that says God desires sorrow (personally, not for any man)? The way you have obfuscated here, I'm guessing not...
 
J

Jarthur001

Active Member
webdog said:
I reject pulling verses from context describing man's sorrow, absolutely.

Do you have an actual verse that says God desires sorrow (personally, not for any man)? The way you have obfuscated here, I'm guessing not...
Click to expand...
so you want another one...

verse 3...

Hebrews 12:4-8:

In this all-out match against sin, others have suffered far worse than you, to say nothing of what Jesus went through—all that bloodshed! So don't feel sorry for yourselves. Or have you forgotten how good parents treat children, and that God regards you as his children?

My dear child, don't shrug off God's discipline,
but don't be crushed by it either.
It's the child he loves that he disciplines;
the child he embraces, he also corrects.
God is educating you; that's why you must never drop out. He's treating you as dear children. This trouble you're in isn't punishment; it's training, the normal experience of children.


BTW...did you see this word?

2 cor 7

For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.
10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

What does intend mean to you?
 
webdog

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jarthur001 said:
so you want another one...

verse 3...

Hebrews 12:4-8:

In this all-out match against sin, others have suffered far worse than you, to say nothing of what Jesus went through—all that bloodshed! So don't feel sorry for yourselves. Or have you forgotten how good parents treat children, and that God regards you as his children?

My dear child, don't shrug off God's discipline,
but don't be crushed by it either.
It's the child he loves that he disciplines;
the child he embraces, he also corrects.
God is educating you; that's why you must never drop out. He's treating you as dear children. This trouble you're in isn't punishment; it's training, the normal experience of children.


BTW...did you see this word?

2 cor 7

For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.
10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

What does intend mean to you?
Click to expand...
Why not read what I am saying? Is the "you" God?

Last time...when has God PERSONALLY desired sorrow FOR HIMSELF.
 
J

Jarthur001

Active Member
webdog said:
Why not read what I am saying? Is the "you" God?

Last time...when has God PERSONALLY desired sorrow FOR HIMSELF.
Click to expand...
ok got it....my bad

I don't know. Unless you mean Christ who is God.

is this the verse you mean?

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him(Christ); he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
 
webdog

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
I'm not sure you understand what it means to desire sorrow personally. If it pleases the Lord to do anything it contradicts what I am asking.
 
webdog

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jarthur001 said:
none...

got it
Click to expand...
None you will accept that is.

I changed my mind. Here is what you said "Again how do you remove God's will from his plan?". I asked if God desires sorrow (since it would need to be in His plan). Christ lamenting over Jerusalem shows clearly it was not His plan for Israel to reject their Messiah, hence the sorrow. He even said how much He wanted to gather them under His wings showing His will.

Now, I do realize you will reject this as you do with anything else, but it is what it is.
 
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R

Robert Snow

New Member
Jarthur001 said:
no....

Do you agree with logos that Calvinist see the words of Calvin higher than Holy Spirit?
Click to expand...

I doubt any would admit to it, but some might. I'm sure in their minds they are not guilty of this act, but practically speaking, they could depend more on what they have been taught by fellow Calvinists than they do what the Word of God teaches.
 
J

Jarthur001

Active Member
Robert Snow said:
I doubt any would admit to it, but some might. I'm sure in their minds they are not guilty of this act, but practically speaking, they could depend more on what they have been taught by fellow Calvinists than they do what the Word of God teaches.
Click to expand...
ok...might. I'll have to allow that, because I do not know peoples hearts.

Now more to the point. Do you know of a quote where a Calvinst has said Calvins words are higher than Scripture?
 
R

Robert Snow

New Member
Jarthur001 said:
ok...might. I'll have to allow that, because I do not know peoples hearts.

Now more to the point. Do you know of a quote where a Calvinst has said Calvins words are higher than Scripture?
Click to expand...

No, but I don't read Calvinist material very much. My understanding concerning Calvinists who appear to rely more on Calvin than God is based on many posts from people here on the BB.
 
L

Luke2427

Active Member
Robert Snow said:
No, but I don't read Calvinist material very much. My understanding concerning Calvinists who appear to rely more on Calvin than God is based on many posts from people here on the BB.
Click to expand...

Substantiate this claim. I do not think that you can. I think you just like to hurl baseless accusations.

If I were to say that some people on here rely more on Robert Snow than God, I should be expected to support such a WILD and INSULTING and RIDICULOUS claim.

If you had any honor you would support this claim of yours.

Where's your support?
 
J

Jarthur001

Active Member
Luke2427 said:
Substantiate this claim. I do not think that you can. I think you just like to hurl baseless accusations.

If I were to say that some people on here rely more on Robert Snow than God, I should be expected to support such a WILD and INSULTING and RIDICULOUS claim.

If you had any honor you would support this claim of yours.

Where's your support?
Click to expand...
In this case I will have to stand up with Robert.

He has been the most up-front from his side, than all others on this thread. Of course I do not expect much from some here. Those few I have never known them to admit error in the time I have been here.
 
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