Speaking in Tongues Continued

[tamborine lady]

Brother Ray is right. God never promised us riches in money! He does say though:

Psalm 37-25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.


Also: Phil 4-19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

Some folks have more money than others, but that's O.K. because He takes care of me according to my needs and I am happy!!

God Bless,

Tam

 

[Brian30755]

Can someone tell me what Shaka Kahn means? And how it relates to 'Jesus is coming soon"?

Thanks.

Bro. Dallas

Click Here

 

[Ray Berrian]

Hope of Glory,

You said, 'But, the signs of the spirit aren't outward signs. The sign-gifts were given for a specific reason and that specific reason went away about 69 AD.'

Please, give us the month, day and hour when the 'gifts of the Spirit' winged their way back to God's Heaven. Let's guess that it is connected to the Fall of Jerusalm in 70 A.D. Just think we Gentiles and all other Jews that have ever lived after that time--70 A.D. are deprived of these gifts because of those obstreperous Jews.

Due tell us what quasi-theologian told you this erring view first. We all want to blacken his name for such a virus placed in the Word of God--the Bible.

Just think of how fickle God is [Romans 11:29], according to your view, in ducking out of this era of grace about 2,000 years ago, just because the Israelites did not obey the Gospel leading to their Messiah. We are punished for their wickedness?

No, the Lord does not negate what He has decreed for His people until the Second Coming of Christ.
We have all the benefits of His grace and gifts as He sees fit to give to various Christians [I Corinthians 12:11].

The Apostle Paul admits that even our spiritual 'knowledge' and our prophecying'/preaching is not fully completed nor will it be until Jesus comes to judge the wicked [I Corinthians 13:10; Revelation 20:11]. When He comes in His Second Coming there will no more need of 'knowledge, prophecy or the gifts of the Spirit' because the perfect Living Word--Jesus will be with us forever.

And guess what--we will not even need our KJV.

Verse 12 in the love chapter of the Bible tells us that with our present prophecying and even the Word of God is like looking in a glass, but in that day you and I will see Him 'face to face.'

We in our life time may have most of the answers as Paul says, 'I know in part' but when Jesus is among us we will 'know' Him even as '. . . we are known by Him.'

Now, thank God we have the completed canon of Scripture and yet we only understand as looking through a shaded glass, but at the end of the age we will see Jesus clearly then---and not through a glass, Bible, or mirror. [End Quote]


[End Quote].

You went on to say, 'However, just like the children of Israel, sometimes God will give people what they ask for, even if it's not in his perfect will. And, God will work it all to his honor and glory in the long run.'

As to your generalized statement I agree with you. If, however, you mean that sometime God allows 'the gifts of the Spirit' in our dispensation, you have compromised your religious friends view on this board who firmly say, the 'gifts' are definitely not being used by the Lord in Christian congregations.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

They all spoke different languages. As shown by the scripture above. They probably did not all speak greek or hebrew!

Otherwise why bother with the first display of all hearing in their own language?

Tam

That they spoke different languages is true.
However, they were all Jews. That is why they came to the Jewish feast of Pentecost, the feast of first-fruits at the time of harvest. It was a Jewish feast. The feasts could only be held at the Temple. So the Jews, previously scattered throughout all the known world came from all over to the Temple located in Jerusalem (similar to how Muslims today come from all over the world to the Ka'aba in Mecca). They did all speak different languages. But they were all taught in synagogues which they established where ever they went in order to raise their children and worship. The synagogues were primarily teaching institutions, not just places of worship. It was there that they learned the Torah, and other subjects. They learned Hebrew, their sacred language--all of them. They were Jews. They knew Hebrew. That was their national language. How could they not know it?
Secondly, they knew Greek. Everyone knew Greek. It was the lingua franca of the day. It was the universal language of the time. It was the very reason that our New Testament was written in Greek, so that all would be able to understand the Word of God. It is called Koine Greek, common Greek, the Greek of the common person.
These two languages all the Jews knew. They lived in an empire that had formerly been conquered by Alexander the Great, who had given it the Greek culture. They now lived under Roman rule and thus had to understand Latin. They were raised in the Jewish synagogues and learned their own language of Hebrew. They also learned the mother tongue of the language in which they lived. These are the languages that were spoken by the 120, fulfilling the prophecy in Isaiah 28:11,12. God wasn't speaking to these Jews in their sacred language of Hebrew. He was speaking to them in "the language that they were born."

Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Coming for the Jewish feasts was a regular thing for these Jews. They no doubt came to all of them, several times a year, especially the Passover, and the Day of Atonement. What language do you suppose would be spoken when they all gathered on these occasions? It would be Hebrew--their national language. That is why they were so surprised that actual foreign Gentile languages that they were familiar with were being spoken.
The message of God was being spoken with in Gentile languages just as God had prophesied 700 years previous to this time through the writings of Isaiah.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

Due tell us what quasi-theologian told you this erring view first. We all want to blacken his name for such a virus placed in the Word of God--the Bible.

It is really bad when you stoop so low as to call God names Ray. I told you to stop with the personal attacks, and attacking God is blasphemous.

Here is what God, the author of our Bible, said:

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

"This people" is the nation of Israel, the same people that Paul refers back to in Isaiah 28:11,12. The teaching is plain. Tongues are for a sign. With men of other languages (the gentiles), and other lips (those that speak other languages) will I speak to the nation of Israel ("this People"), and yet for all that they will not hear me saith the Lord.
--It was a prophecy that Paul quoted that came true. The rejected Christ. They crucified him. Now they were rejecting the message of the Apostles. (How longsuffering God had been with this nation!). Judgment was imminent. That is what the sign of speaking in tongues was for. It was for the Jews, as this verse plainly indicates. The Jews knew this. And judgment came soon after in 70 A.D. when Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed.

Now when God speaks in 1Cor.14:21, don't call him names Ray. It is God's teaching here, and not God's fault that you don't study the Bible.

Just think of how fickle God is [Romans 11:29], according to your view, in ducking out of this era of grace about 2,000 years ago, just because the Israelites did not obey the Gospel leading to their Messiah. We are punished for their wickedness?

This is a complete red herring. What does Romans 11:29 have to do with 1Cor.14:21? The answer is nothing. Let's put both passages in their basic contexts. Romans chapters 9-11 are speaking of God's dealing with the Israelites. 1Cor.12-14 are chapters that deal with the gifts of the Holy Spirit as they pertain to the early church. The one has nothing to do with the other. I am sorry that the word "gift" confuses you, but it has more than just one context.

No, the Lord does not negate what He has decreed for His people until the Second Coming of Christ.

The gifts do not last until the second coming of Christ. They have ceased already. Context shows that they have. Their purpose has been realized, and has come to an end. There is no more reason for them to exist.

We have all the benefits of His grace and gifts as He sees fit to give to various Christians [I Corinthians 12:11].

There you go taking Scripture out of context again. Let us consdider what it really says:

1 Corinthians 12:10-11 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Who, today, has the gift of working of miracles? Like healing, who today can go up and down corridors of hospitals and work miracles of healings touching people with serious illnesses and making them whole with their gift of miracles. Who do you know that can do that, Ray? If this gift is still in existence you should be able to point to someone who can exercise it on a regular basis. But you can't, can you? It doesn't exist. It was one of the sign gifts that has now ceased to exist. It ceased by the end of the first century, for the Bible says that signs and wonders, and miracles were the marks of an apostle. We don't have apostles today; we don't have these gifts today. The answer is simple. (2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4). But press on in spite of what the Word of God says. God is the author of Scripture. He said that signs and wonders were the marks of an Apostle, not I. They are a sign. The sign has been taken away. It has outlived its usefulness. We don't have apostles today. Whatever exists therefore in the form of tongues is fraudulent. It isn't of God.

The Apostle Paul admits that even our spiritual 'knowledge' and our prophecying'/preaching is not fully completed nor will it be until Jesus comes to judge the wicked [I Corinthians 13:10; Revelation 20:11].

No, that is not what it says. It says it is now not complete (during his time of writing), but when it will be completed then those things that are temporary (tongues, prophecy, revelatory knowledge, etc.) will cease, pass away. And that is what happened when the Bible was completed by the end of the first century.
Your opinion doesn't even make sense. Common, or even "spiritual" knowledge, will never cease, no, not even in heaven. When I get to heaven I plan to sit at the feet of Jesus and learn from him. I will be constantly learning even in heaven. There will never come a moment in my life when I will be omniscient. To declare such would be to claim deity. I could never do that. Spiritual knowledge will never cease. Paul is speaking of the special revelatory knowledge that was given them during the first century when the New Testament was not complete. They needed it then. When the Bible was completed they no longer needed that gift. We now have the completed Word of God; we need no other form of revelation. It is all contained in the 66 books of the Bible. God places a curse on those who add unto that which is written in the Bible.

When He comes in His Second Coming there will no more need of 'knowledge, prophecy or the gifts of the Spirit' because the perfect Living Word--Jesus will be with us forever.

If there will be no more need of knowledge, will God erase everything from our minds and make us all zombies?? There will always be knowledge; always! The gift of revelatory knowlege has already ceased, along with the other sign gifts. They ceased over 2,000 years ago.
You are so obviously denying God's Word here.
Look at it this way:
God says (1Cor.13:8) Prophecy, tongues and (revelatory) knowledge will cease.
Ray says: Prophecy, tongues and (revelatory) knowledge will continue.
Who shall we believe? God or Ray?

Verse 12 in the love chapter of the Bible tells us that with our present prophecying and even the Word of God is like looking in a glass, but in that day you and I will see Him 'face to face.'

Yes the Word of God is like a glass, a mirror, as James says it is in chapter one of his epistle. And as we look into the completed New Testament we see ourselves more clearly than we have ever been able to see ourselves before (by just using the Old Testament) Paul is saying.

We in our life time may have most of the answers as Paul says, 'I know in part' but when Jesus is among us we will 'know' Him even as '. . . we are known by Him.'

He knew in part because he had only part of the Bible--the Old Testament. He looked forward to the day that he would have all the Bible; but unfortunately that day did not come for him. He was martyred before the New Testament was completed.

Now, thank God we have the completed canon of Scripture and yet we only understand as looking through a shaded glass, but at the end of the age we will see Jesus clearly then---and not through a glass, Bible, or mirror.

Where does the passage say that we shall see Jesus? It doesn't say anything about seeing Jesus. It says that we shall see ourselves more clearly, and that is exactly what happens when you look into the New Testament as compared to the Old.
DHK

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

You said...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord."

"This people" is the nation of Israel,</font>[/QUOTE]Thats true. And why were they distictive...because they were Gods "chosen people"

But after Pentecost, who did His "chosen people" become?

All who are born again...Jew and Gentile alike.

And God is still speaking to His "chosen people"...all who are born again...with "other tongues", including the "tongues of Angels".

12:4
There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
12:5
There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
12:6
And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
12:7
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
12:8
for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
12:9
to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same F39 Spirit,
12:10
to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
12:11
But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

The gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues is not simply speaking a foreign language, or interpreting for people who speak another foriegn language. The reason is because unbelievers or even Satanisists can go to a French class and learn French, and can interpret, as well as any christian can, can they not?

These are gifts that are gifts of the Holy Spirit.


God bless,

Mike

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Hope of Glory,
Please, give us the month, day and hour when the 'gifts of the Spirit' winged their way back to God's Heaven.

To start off with, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not misquote me intentionally. However, it's difficult to discuss somethign with someone who states a mistruth about what you said. I specifically stated that we have gifts of the spirit today, but not the sign-gifts that were given as a sign of authenticity to a specific group, at a specific time, for a specific reason.

What are the signs that the Holy Spirit is at work? Not some kind omystical raptures, nor visions, nor supposed revelations; not even healings, tongues, and apparent miracles; for Satan, playing on our psychosomatic complexity and our fallenness, can produce all these things (2 Thessalonians 2:9ff; Colossians 2:18 ).

The only sure signs are that the Christ of the Bible is acknowledged, trusted, loved for his grace, and served for his glory, and that believers actually turn from sin to the life of holiness which is Christ’s image in his people. These are the signs of the Spirit that are meant for today!

Due tell us what quasi-theologian told you this erring view first.

I would prefer you not refer to the Scriptures in such a manner.

If, however, you mean that sometime God allows 'the gifts of the Spirit' in our dispensation, you have compromised your religious friends view on this board who firmly say, the 'gifts' are definitely not being used by the Lord in Christian congregations.

I completely expressed that as an opinion, based upon the example we are given in the OT in which the children of Israel were given something that was not part of God's will, but they asked for and complained until they got it. It was something to please the flesh, just like tongues.

The gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues is not simply speaking a foreign language, or interpreting for people who speak another foriegn language. The reason is because unbelievers or even Satanisists can go to a French class and learn French, and can interpret, as well as any christian can, can they not?

Yes, tongues in the Bible is specifically speaking a foreign language. That's exactly what it's talking about. The word "unknown" is never used with tongues as a sign-gift. If you will see the passages cited above, Satan can and will produce all these things to trick people. These things are neat and exciting! They appeal to the flesh!

As to the reason for the timing, DHK has given quite an adequate explanation from Scripture. It has to do with the perfection or maturity of the plan with which they were involved. In Acts 28:28, when the offer of the Kingdom was removed from Israel for the third and final time, the reason and timing for the sign-gifts came to an end. (If you notice, after this point, Paul no longer has the ability to perform the signs, wonders, and miracles; this occurred some time between 59AD and 64AD.)

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

Every one on the board now knows your antipathy of me personally, when you drop yourself to a new level by calling me a BLASPHEMER. Does being a Moderator give you license to say things like this about a brother in the faith? At least I only said you are a bigot, because of your lack of respect for what most Christians believe about Paul's evaluation and personal use of the 'gift of tongues. You do remember, don't you, that Paul said I speak in tongues more than you all [I Corinthians 14:18]. Step up to your responsibility to us and name the sentence where I disrespected the Lord. All of my posts indicate my deep respect and love for Jesus. I must have really awakened the truth in your heart, by things that you should have learned years ago.

It is all to evident that you made your big exhortation about the Jews so you can pin a time framework on when you think the 'gifts of the Spirit' should have ended. Growing Assembly of God churches in the states and on mission field, demonstrates that some Christians love the Holy Spirit and have not pushed Him back to an era at the time of the Destruction of the Jerusalem Temple.

The N.T. does not say this in I Corinthians 14:22 that '. . . tongues are for a sign to the Jews, them that believe not . . .' I think we all thought that you knew that Jesus came to die for men and women, Gentiles and Jews. But in you great effort and undertaking to prove your theory of 70 A.D. you have ignored the Gentile people. One err in theology always ends up like the snowball rolling down a hill in Vermont.

If you are going to be a theologian some day, you will have to learn that all Scripture has to dovetail and that you cannot simply pull out a Scripture here and there to back up your theology.

For example, we say that God is God of justice. So does that give us the right to say He is only fair in some of His dealings with humankind? No He is fair in every decision that He makes. So when I say that the 'gifts and callings of God are without repentence' it is not wrong to apply Romans 11:29. So for you is John 3:16 only for some sinners or perhaps only for Jews and not Gentile sinners? I think you get my point.

I agree with you that in Heaven we will learn from Jesus things that we might not have understood here. Apparently, our KJV Bibles do not give us all the answers to our queries even since the completed canon. That being said the Bible does not have all the answers to all of our questions and that is why God says, Paul ' . . . shall know even as I am known' with the fulness that God knows us. [vs. 12]

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer agrees with this where he says in his "Systematic Theology" p. 109 Volume VI,

'In the coming sphere and position, all things will be seen, and then not merely as added information may expand human capacity to understand but as God sees them, as God understands. It is then that the saved one will know even as also he is known (I Corinthians 13:12), that is, he will then know as God now knows . . . . But when the "Heavenly sphere" is entered (where Jesus is) there will be an entrance into unbroken and undiminised Divine love . . . .'[End Quote of Dr. Chafer].

You said, 'Where is the passage that says we will see Jesus?'

Well, now you understand it through the eyes, mind and heart of a former President of Dallas Theological Seminary. Will this be credible enough for you? [End Quote]

By the way the word 'blasphemer' that you used personalize at me as committing blasphey. The word blaspheme means 'to revil, abuse or contempt for the Lord God.

I request an apology from the other Moderators that should come from you.

Even if you are not willing, you are forgiven by me as a Christian pastor.

 

[tamborine lady]

First of all, I agree with Ray and D28Guy!!

Second of all I want to say to DHK and Hope of glory and all others who do not believe clear teaching. God is the final authority.

The way you have taken the word of God and turned it inside out is terrible. I know that you believe what you are saying, which makes it all the worse.

You ask us for scripture and we give it to you and you tear it apart like you are the total authority on the Word and God.

There are some things in the bible DHK that I agree with you whole heartedly. But when it comes to the gifts of the spirit, you and others fight tooth and nail to keep the power of God out.

As of now, on this one subject we have gone almost 34 pages, listeneng to you and others like you tell us that Gods word doesn't mean what it says.

We have discussed this subject at length on an almost regular basis ever since I have been here which was Oct, 2003, and I'm sure it went on for years before I discovered this board.

What I wonder is, what are you afraid of? Not just DHK and Hope of Glory, but all the one's who fight so hard against it.

Sincerely,

Tam

 

[Ray Berrian]

For some of you--you deny miracles in these times.

I saw on T.V. the other night during the various military battles between Israel and the Palestinians and Egyptians, the secular commentator said, that when the many tanks rushed toward Israel, only one Israeli tank went out to fight against Egypt. They fought all night and finally a lead Egyptian tank came toward the Israeli tank with a white flag held up as it approached. The Israeli commander said why are you surrendering to me. The Egyptian commander said, because we have been fight through the night and there were more tanks fighting than we have.

Another incident mentioned was during the 'Six Day War' in Israel that about four top commandos were going against about 100 Palastinians and all of a sudden then fled away from the Israeli soldiers. Apparently, God had intervened and had allowed the Palestinian fighters to see more Israeli commandos than actually were there. The commandos called this a miracle of God.

We may well surmise that these Israeli commandos were not even Christian, but because the Lord will always defend Israel and His chosen people; He still protected them. After all, in the Millennial Kingdom Jesus will be seated on the throne of His glory in Jerusalem. Read Zechariah chapter 14.

This was the witness of the Israeli soldiers during there years to preserve their beloved nation.

If God will do this for unbelieving Jews, how much more does He still do miracles in our age of grace as Christians. For, "Hope of Glory" to say that the time of miracles is past, can only be attributed to his spiritual myopia.

Miracles from the Lord completely circumvent natural causes and events or scientific explanation.

Understand, that you cannot stuff God, as it were, in a neat little box (and I say this with ultimate respect for the Lord) created by human speculation that the days of miracle and the 'gifts of the Spirit' have fled from our human needs in our times and for our understanding of a miracle working Lord God.

Admittedly, the gift of loving one another [I Corinthians 13} should be our highest goal as brethren of the faith. We are to love not only in word but by our deeds.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

Every one on the board now knows your antipathy of me personally, when you drop yourself to a new level by calling me a BLASPHEMER.

I am consistent Ray. I did not call you a blasphemer. That in itself is a false accusation. Note carefully what I said:

It is really bad when you stoop so low as to call God names Ray. I told you to stop with the personal attacks, and attacking God is blasphemous.

Attacking God is blasphemous. The doctrrne you expressed is blasphemous. I didn't call you personally a blasphemeer. I directed my remarks at what you said, the doctrine you were expressing. There is a difference.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother DHK,

It is obvious to people when you do not respond to their statements on the board, in trying to discount their position and view of Biblical truth, that you have no answers to their views. We do give you an "A" on your own diatribe and your own church stand on various issues. This leaves you out, however, of intellectual discussion and academia.

The use of your word, 'blasphemous' only shows your personal isolation in your own sect. Some fundamentalists make a bad impression on sinners and among other denominational people because they leave no 'wiggle room' for other Christians and their views.

I guess I prefer to call myself an evangelical Christian.

With respect toward you, I still find your position non-Biblical and off the scope especially your personal ideas about many foreign languages being spoken by those who were in the Upper Rooom as they spoke to the unsaved in the marketplace.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by D28guy:

The gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues is not simply speaking a foreign language, or interpreting for people who speak another foriegn language. The reason is because unbelievers or even Satanisists can go to a French class and learn French, and can interpret, as well as any christian can, can they not?

These are gifts that are gifts of the Holy Spirit.

God bless,

Mike

You have proved my point exactly Mike.
Paul explains this same thing in 1Cor.12:1-3.
These Gentile believers had come out of a pagan background, as Paul points out in verse two. They had spoken in tongues as pagans, just as Satanists do. Now they were reverting back to their old ways, and in doing so calling Jesus accursed. That is why Paul says that no man can call Jesus Lord but by the Holy Spirit. They were being controlled by another spirit; not the Holy Spirit. The very fact that ecstatic utterances (gibberish) is used by pagans and other cults and false religions is proof enough to show that it is not of God. It is of the devil, and always was.
Biblical speaking in tongues is always speaking in a foreign langauge--always. It was a God-given gift to speak miraculously in a language that was foreign to the one speaking it, but not to the one hearing it. "How hear we every man in our own language?" This makes it very clear that these were not ecstatic utterances but foreign languages that were being spoken. The gift never changed in nature. There is no proof that it did.
DHK

 

[Ed Edwards]

DHK: //The very fact that ecstatic utterances (gibberish) is used by pagans and other cults and false religions is proof
enough to show that it is not of God.
It is of the devil, and always was.//

By the same logic:
The very fact that baptism is used by pagans and
other cults and false religions is is proof
enough to show that it is not of God.
It is of the devil, and always was.

Something seems a tad wrong with your logic Bro. DHK.

How do you deal with this?

1 Corinthians 14:39 (KJV1611 Edition):
Wherefore brethren, couet to prophesie,
and forbid not to speake with tongues.

Don't use the tongues = foreign languages, gambit.
Paul poo-poos that right here:

1 Corinthians 14:11-13 (KJV1611 Edition):
Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voyce,
I shall bee vnto him that speaketh, a Barbarian,
and he that speaketh shall be a Barbarian vnto mee.
12 Euen so ye, forasmuch as yee are zealous of spirituall gifts,
seeke that yee may excell to the edifying of the Church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an vnknowen tongue,
pray that he may interprete.

Such 'tongues' as Paul speaks of, were unknown to everybody
save those who had the gift of interpertation of tongues.

Lord God I petition you to give me the gift to 'prophesie'
in a better way and more meaningful to the churches to which I
belong. May this request be granted that we might give all
the more honor and glory in the Twenty-First-Century (2001-2100)
to our Blessed Lord and Savior: Messiah Yesusua. Amen.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

Every one on the board now knows your antipathy of me personally, when you drop yourself to a new level by calling me a BLASPHEMER. Does being a Moderator give you license to say things like this about a brother in the faith? At least I only said you are a bigot, because of your lack of respect for what most Christians believe about Paul's evaluation and personal use of the 'gift of tongues. You do remember, don't you, that Paul said I speak in tongues more than you all [I Corinthians 14:18].

Yes he did. He had need of them more than them all because of his missionary journeys. The Corinthians were abusing the gift, and were using it in an egotistical pseudo-spiritual way, musch as people try to imitate the gift today.

Step up to your responsibility to us and name the sentence where I disrespected the Lord. All of my posts indicate my deep respect and love for Jesus.

Does this sound like a deep love for Jesus, or a disrespect for the Lord, the author of 1Cor.14:21, who teaches the very thing that you are attacking in this statement:

Due tell us what quasi-theologian told you this erring view first. We all want to blacken his name for such a virus placed in the Word of God--the Bible.

God is not a quasit-theologian. To say such is blasphemy. God is the author of the Bible. The doctrine which you attack is straight from the Bible. I have shown that to you. When you have an argument with God, you shouldn't call him names.

I must have really awakened the truth in your heart, by things that you should have learned years ago.

I have learned the truth long ago. Have you? By calling Benny Hinn a spiritual Christian, it is apparent that you have not. Hinn is a heretic. Do a search on the web about Hinn and his doctrine.

It is all to evident that you made your big exhortation about the Jews so you can pin a time framework on when you think the 'gifts of the Spirit' should have ended. Growing Assembly of God churches in the states and on mission field, demonstrates that some Christians love the Holy Spirit and have not pushed Him back to an era at the time of the Destruction of the Jerusalem Temple.

I have shown you Biblically, from Scripture, how and why the gift of speaking in foreign languages has ceased.
Your argument is "God is blessing the Assembly of God churches, therefore the gifts have not ceased." God seems to blessing the J.W.'s, Mormons, and other cults as well. In fact the fastest growing religion in the world is Islam. Their "pirs" (Muslim mystics) speak in tongues. Thus it is a gift of the Holy Spirit right? It is from God right? You base things on experience not on Scripture. Because a movement is growing you say that God is blessing it; not because it is based on the Bible.
The Bible says these gifts will cease, and they have.
Ray says they will oontinue.
I would rather believe the Bible.

The N.T. does not say this in I Corinthians 14:22 that '. . . tongues are for a sign to the Jews, them that believe not . . .' I think we all thought that you knew that Jesus came to die for men and women, Gentiles and Jews. But in you great effort and undertaking to prove your theory of 70 A.D. you have ignored the Gentile people. One err in theology always ends up like the snowball rolling down a hill in Vermont.

First I quoted to you 1Cor.14:21, not verse 22, however if you would like to discuss verse 22, I would be more than happy to. You see in the original Greek their were no punctuation marks. Verse 22 is connected with verse 21 by the word "Wherefore." The two verses contain the same thought. The unbelievers referred to are those in verse 21. The context is unbelieving Jews, the Jews mentioned in verse 21. Wherefore tongues are for a sign to those that believe not (i.e., the unbelieving Jews.) Everything has a context. Read the context.

If you are going to be a theologian some day, you will have to learn that all Scripture has to dovetail and that you cannot simply pull out a Scripture here and there to back up your theology.

I have been quoting Scripture after Scripture to you. Your argument: "God has blessed the Assembly of God church, therefore the gifts must be for today"--hardly a Scriptural argument.

For example, we say that God is God of justice. So does that give us the right to say He is only fair in some of His dealings with humankind? No He is fair in every decision that He makes. So when I say that the 'gifts and callings of God are without repentence' it is not wrong to apply Romans 11:29. So for you is John 3:16 only for some sinners or perhaps only for Jews and not Gentile sinners? I think you get my point.

No, I don't get your point. You are pulling a Scripture that deals specifically with Israel and using the word "gifts" to speak of the "spiritual gifts" when they don't have anything in common with each other. That is about the same parallel as
"And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth" (Gen.9:2), has to do with the beasts mentioned in Revelation 13. Right?
Beast in one place in Scripture does not correspond to beast in the other. The same is true with "gift."

I agree with you that in Heaven we will learn from Jesus things that we might not have understood here. Apparently, our KJV Bibles do not give us all the answers to our queries even since the completed canon. That being said the Bible does not have all the answers to all of our questions and that is why God says, Paul ' . . . shall know even as I am known' with the fulness that God knows us. [vs. 12]

Paul didn't say that. You are deliberately adding to the Scripture to support your own slanted interpretation. Here is what Paul said:

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
--There is not "with the fulness that God knows us." You have deliberately added that in, misquoting and perverting the Word of God.

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer agrees with this where he says in his "Systematic Theology" p. 109 Volume VI,

'In the coming sphere and position, all things will be seen, and then not merely as added information may expand human capacity to understand but as God sees them, as God understands. It is then that the saved one will know even as also he is known (I Corinthians 13:12), that is, he will then know as God now knows . . . . But when the "Heavenly sphere" is entered (where Jesus is) there will be an entrance into unbroken and undiminised Divine love . . . .'[End Quote of Dr. Chafer].

You said, 'Where is the passage that says we will see Jesus?'

Well, now you understand it through the eyes, mind and heart of a former President of Dallas Theological Seminary. Will this be credible enough for you?

That is one man's opinion. It doesn't make him right. The Bible says that the gifts will cease. It does not say that they will continue. A sign does not continue "unto the heavenly sphere." Chafer is obviously wrong. A sign is temporary. A sign points to an event. When the event is over the sign is taken away. These signs were removed at the end of the first centuries when they were no longer needed. Signs don't last forever. They don't even last for 21 centuries.

By the way the word 'blasphemer' that you used personalize at me as committing blasphey. The word blaspheme means 'to revil, abuse or contempt for the Lord God.

I request an apology from the other Moderators that should come from you.

Even if you are not willing, you are forgiven by me as a Christian pastor.

Show me where I have personally attacked you as a blasphemer. This is a false accusation. I have not. I have shown you that your words against the Lord are blasphemous. There is a difference.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

First of all, I agree with Ray and D28Guy!!

Second of all I want to say to DHK and Hope of glory and all others who do not believe clear teaching. God is the final authority.

We both believe that God is the final authority. I believe that God is the final authority as revealed in His Word, thus it is the Word of God that becomes the final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. Anything more than that is another authority, and would be akin to the Mormons with their book of Mormon. If speaking in tongues or prophesying or having a word of knowledge is authoritative, then you have a subjective experience, not inspired of God, possibly not of God Himself, that one thinks is inspired. That is heresy.

The way you have taken the word of God and turned it inside out is terrible. I know that you believe what you are saying, which makes it all the worse.

Contrary; we, as well as Briguy, have brought up valid points from the Scripture that none of you have been able to refute. Thus it becomes you that fails to believe the Word of God. The Word of God does not contradict itself. The Charsimatics take it out of context to try and fit their experiences. Experience becomes their foundation instead of the Word of God.

You ask us for scripture and we give it to you and you tear it apart like you are the total authority on the Word and God.

You give some Scripture, largely out of context. When shown that it is out of context, you simply deny it, and like a J.W. go on to a different topic saying "But, what about...."

There are some things in the bible DHK that I agree with you whole heartedly. But when it comes to the gifts of the spirit, you and others fight tooth and nail to keep the power of God out.

The power of God has nothing to do with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Can you demonstrate that it does? There is a command in Eph.5:18 that we should be filled with the Holy Spirit, and that I agree with, but that has nothing to do with tongues. Check out Acts 4:31.

As of now, on this one subject we have gone almost 34 pages, listeneng to you and others like you tell us that Gods word doesn't mean what it says.

We have discussed this subject at length on an almost regular basis ever since I have been here which was Oct, 2003, and I'm sure it went on for years before I discovered this board.

It only demonstrates the reluctance of Charismatics to accept the clear teaching of the Word of God.

What I wonder is, what are you afraid of? Not just DHK and Hope of Glory, but all the one's who fight so hard against it.

I live my life in accordance with the Word of God, not by the experience of other. I fear God alone. I also fear sincere Christians going astray because they are caught up in a movement that will lead them further and further away from the truth of God's Word.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
DHK: //The very fact that ecstatic utterances (gibberish) is used by pagans and other cults and false religions is proof
enough to show that it is not of God.
It is of the devil, and always was.//

By the same logic:
The very fact that baptism is used by pagans and
other cults and false religions is is proof
enough to show that it is not of God.
It is of the devil, and always was.
Something seems a tad wrong with your logic Bro. DHK.

No one claimed that the act of baptism was a gift of the Holy Spirit. But all Charismatics claim that speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Does a Satanist or a Muslim speak in tongues by the power of the Holy Spirit?

How do you deal with this?

1 Corinthians 14:39 (KJV1611 Edition):
Wherefore brethren, couet to prophesie,
and forbid not to speake with tongues.

Context! Forbid not to speak in tongues (in the first century). Since those gifts ceased near the end of the first century it is obvious he was speaking to the Corinthian Church, and it was applicable only to first century believers.

Don't use the tongues = foreign languages, gambit.
Paul poo-poos that right here:

1 Corinthians 14:11-13 (KJV1611 Edition):
Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voyce,
I shall bee vnto him that speaketh, a Barbarian,
and he that speaketh shall be a Barbarian vnto mee.
12 Euen so ye, forasmuch as yee are zealous of spirituall gifts,
seeke that yee may excell to the edifying of the Church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an vnknowen tongue,
pray that he may interprete.

Such 'tongues' as Paul speaks of, were unknown to everybody
save those who had the gift of interpertation of tongues.

What is your point here Ed? I fail to see it. If someone spoke in a foreign language without anyone understanding it:
1. he would seem like a barbarian to them. It would be foolish because no one would understand him.
2. He would not be edifying anyone. Therefore he would be going contrary to Scripture.
3. The stipulation was always that someone speaking in a foreign language had to have an interpreter so that all could understand what was being said. It was for the benefit of all the church.
4. If there was no interpreter he could pray for the gift of interpretation himself.
5. If God didn't give him the gift of interpretation he was to sit down and shut up. "Let him keep silence in the church."
6. Tongues was always a foreign language. Always!
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ed Edwards,

You and I must reread I Corinthians 14:39. We must have made a mistake. I guess we missed the context and the Greek words, 'in the first century.' Do you find these four words in your Greek text?

Our brother from Canada wants us to believe that the Apostle Paul is correcting the excesses of the Jews and not a congregation predominately of Gentile believers on the ocean port city of Corinth. This obviously is an over reach to prove that God withdrew some of the gifts of the Spirit of God.

I guess we just missed something in our years of study.

"Ray"

 

[DHK]

Acts 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ray Berrian: //Ed Edwards,

//You and I must reread I Corinthians 14:39. We must have made
a mistake. I guess we missed the context and the Greek words,
'in the first century.' Do you find these four words
in your Greek text? //

Actually it does

but it is a broad paraphrase not a
translation

Let me see. Paul wrote in 56AD some instructions that
are for Jews only. In 70AD the instructions were
invalid, for these sign gifts passed away
when Jesus came the first time.

Minority report: "when that which is perfect is come"
doesn't happen until the Second Coming of Jesus.

So for 70-56 = 24 years, we have an instruction.
In 325AD when the canon was finalized, the 'instruction'
written in 56AD but only good until 70AD was
included. 255 years after the instruciton was invalid
it was finally legally included. Sorry, can you see I'm not
buying this at all?

NOte that nothing I said warrents the conclusion that
'tongues' as practiced on American TV is 'a gift of the Spirit'.

DHK: //What is your point here Ed? I fail to see it.//

Yes, your self-imposed blindness is OBVIOUS. What I proved
from the scripture is that in 1 Corinthians Paul is speaking
of 'unknown tongues' not 'known foreign tongues' as some say.

1 Corinthians 14:39 (KJV1611 Edition):
Wherefore brethren, couet to prophesie,
and forbid not to speake with tongues.

which means 'forbid not to speake with 'unknown tongues'.

Nowhere does Scripture say your unwarrented conclusion:
'unknown tongues' are 'ecstatic utterances (gibberish)'.

DHK: //6. Tongues was always a foreign language. Always!//

No, wrong. This is right:
1 Corinthians 14:2 (KJV1611 edition):
For he that speaketh in an vnknowen tongue, speaketh not
vnto men, but vnto God: for no man vnderstandeth him:
howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Which part of 'speaketh not unto men, but unto God
are you having problems with? nobody knows the
tongue, it is an unknown tongue. Only God knows
what he is saying. Humm, recon what 'prayer language'
means if ONLY GOD and no man on earth can understand?

Which part of "no man understandeth him"
are you having problems with. If it were a foreign
language, some man would understand - a man who spake
that known but foreign language.

Which part of 'unknown tongue' are you haveing your
troubles with?

Nothing Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14 is about the
day of Pentacost. BTW, everybody hearing what was
said in their own language is NOT a miracle of
tongues (foreign languages) for each person spake in
their own langauge. The miracle on the Day of Pentacost
is a miracle of HEARING.

'Unknown tongues' is NOT a gift of hearing, but a
gift of tongues.