Speaking in Tongues Continued

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by D28guy:

Concerning prophecy and knowledge, they will be made to end at the appointed time...after that which is perfect has come, and we are with Christ for eternity.

Concerning tongues, they will fade away on their own at the appointed time...after that wich is perfect has come, when we are with Christ for eternity.

Hello Mike,

If we maintain that the Canon of Scripture is complete and closed, and that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible, inspired Word of God, then is it possible that the "perfect" being used there refers to the complete written Word of God?

 

[Brian30755]

John was taken spiritually (via a vision) and given a view of the exalted Christ, things in heaven, and things that will come to pass here on earth. No one alive on this earth today has had the exact same experience.

You know every experience that every person alive on this earth today has had? Are you God?

 

[tamborine lady]

1 Cor 14-21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

He was speaking about the Jews.

He said other people will speak to them in other languages.

Even then they will not hear what he is really saying.

There are still Jews here today.

He may still speak to them in other languages.

The scripture above in no way says it will only happen once, at one point in time.

It does not say it will happen once and then pass away.

Tam

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

1 Cor 14-21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

He was speaking about the Jews.

He said other people will speak to them in other languages.

Even then they will not hear what he is really saying.

There are still Jews here today.

He may still speak to them in other languages.

The scripture above in no way says it will only happen once, at one point in time.

It does not say it will happen once and then pass away.

Tam

Great Point Tam!
It did not happen just once in the book of Acts.

 

[Ray Berrian]

gb93433,

Your post at the top of page 14 is the correct meaning and exegesis of the verse. It is clear as the sound of a bell, if you love the words of Jesus.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Wake Forest, North Carolina,

Years ago I even heard of people at the point of getting saved, at that event, 'speaking in tongues.' You guys like to put God in a box and lock it with your 'personal interpretation key.'

I inferred that you used the KJV. Yes, and I got your reaction and it was fun at that.

When the 'light from Heaven' approached Saul, I am sure you would say that his experience was of God. And what happened to him? (He) fell to the earth. . .' Slain by the Holy Spirit of God. Without a bias you will let this idea stand as stated.

When you get close enough to God in your personal life you will sense a deep fear, respect, and reverence for the Lord. I am not saying that you do not have this. What I am saying is keep in mind, Moses, in the cleft of the rock.

John turned and heard a voice in Revelation 1:12. His experience of falling before the Lord in vs. 17 is not hyperbole; this actually happened. If this did not happen God would not have had reason to use the words 'Fear not; I am the first and the last.'

Those experiencing being 'slain in the Spirit' in Pastor Hinn's services have this happen because the Holy Spirit has touched them via the minister.
Notice, sometimes he does not even touch them.

Lastly, one time in Bible College I fell under the power of the Holy Spirit. I was sitting 'Indian style' on the floor in a dorm room with about four other Christian men and I sensed that some Presence was coming toward me from above corner of the room, and it was like a fluffy pillow pushed me over. I thought this is stupid tried to sit up to restore my dignity and could not move. It felt like 'liquid Divine love was being poured into my soul. I cannot tell you how long a period of time this was but I could sense that His Presence was withdrawing from my body. I prayed to the Lord and begged Him to allow this to happen at least one more time before my death. I have never experienced this again, nor do I search for spiritual experiences. At times I am over come in my spirit to the point of tears at home or at church when I realized all of Jesus' wonderful blessings in my life that I do not deserve.

I am sure there are a couple of other Christians on this board who have experienced this. The point is no one can throw up 'road barriers' in their spiritual life and then expect the Holy Spirit to override their free will to receive from the Lord God.

I, of course, be curious if Tam has ever been disabled by the Presence of the Holy Spirit in a similar way as to my experience while in Bible College. Trustingly she will respond and let us know about her personal relationship to the Lord as to this phenemonon.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Bible-boy,

As to my story above we fellow students were in prayer in group devotions and I was praying out loud in English when the Spirit of God approached me with His overwhelming power. I did not speak in tongues and never have at this point in my life.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Hope of Glory,

You said, '"Unknown" is interpretation based on something that is not in the text."

So, what you are saying is the KJV is flawed at different places just like all other translations. Right?

That is why you students of the Word must study Greek so you find out the areas of where the translators have injected extra words and wrong words as in I John 3:9 where in the KJV you read 'commit' when in fact the Greek word is (poiea) meaning practice. And then, in fact it is in the present active tense which means that a true Christian cannot make a practice of sinning because the 'seed' the Holy Spirit takes permanent residence in the born again Christian.

I do use the KJV only because I think it is easier to learn how to remember verses in the Bible. In all of my studies I have used the KJV. I don't refer to translations in English because some weak Christians think that the Apostle Paul wrote his N.T. epistles in the English, KJV.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Mike,

Your post on the last page of 13 is exactly right. No one has to be a 'brain surgeon' or a Christian very long in order to understand what the Lord has had men of God write down in the N.T.

By this I did not mean you are less bright than a doctor. Nevertheless, the Lord has moved on you in such a way that you respect His Word. Praise the Lord! I deeply respect that in a woman or a man.

 

[Phillip]

So, Ray, I assume that you believe the Holy Spirits moves in and out of a person? He's not there to stay?

 

[Ray Berrian]

No, Phillip,

The Holy Spirit is a permanent resident in the soul of a Christian until that person dies, as in physical death.

I John 3:9 indicates that the 'seed' never leave a real Christian person. This verse is strong enough without giving you a litany of verses to prove that the Spirit always remains in a saved person [John 14:16].

I was merely saying that when I was 'slain in the Spirit' that eventually His overcoming power in creating this experience withdrew from me so I could get up and walk and return to my studies and secular work.

Regards,
Ray

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

I was merely saying that when I was 'slain in the Spirit' that eventually His overcoming power in creating this experience withdrew from me so I could get up and walk and return to my studies and secular work.

Regards,
Ray

Being slain in the spirit is not a Christian experience. It is not found in the Bible. It is decidedly of Satan, and is unbiblical without any Scriptural support whatsoever.

Consider:
Isaiah saw the glory of God: the angels proclaiming the glory and holiness of God.
His reaction: He fell forward prstrate on the ground in an act of humility and reverence to God.

Paul saw a light from heaven, heard a voice from heaven.
His reaction: He fell from his horse, but he fell forward, and lay on the ground prostrate in an act of humility and in subservience to the Christ that he had formerly opposed. His answer now was "What would you have to do Lord?

After John had seen all the wonders of heaven he was awe-struck at what he saw. He fell temporarily out of character and fell dowrn forward in an act of worship, but was sharply rebuked by the angel: "See thou do it not!"

There is not a single instance in the Bible of one being slain in the spirit. The closest one can come to is the angry mob of unsaved soldiers who came to Jesus while he was in the garden. Jesus asked them, "Whom do you seek?"
They answered: "We seek Jesus of Nazareth."
When Jesus answered with the "I am" of John 8:58, the same title God gave to Moses to give to the Israelites, the great name of Jehovah, all the soldiers fell backward. Thus if you want to classify yourselves in the only ones that come close to being slain in the spirit, you put yourself among a mob of unsaved soldiers who fell backward at the word of Jesus. They fell backward for fear, not because of worship. If it were of worship they would have fallen forward and adored him.

Benny Hinn is a heretic, possibly demon-possessed. he is not a Christian. His theology does not even come close to Christian theology. He even believes that it was satan that atoned for our sins and not Jesus. Benny Hinn, and others like him push people back ward. Others in the crowd fall backward under a semi-hypnotic spell, or even a demonic influence. It is not of God. It is not Biblical. It has not Biblical support. It has much support showing it to be of the devil, but not of God.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by D28guy:
DHK,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"The important point is this, Ray.
The Biblical gift of tongues is always confined to speaking a real genuine foreign language, unknown to the speaker, but known to the hearer."

I agree completly. And what we are speaking of fits with that perfectly.

Sometimes the "real genuine foreign language" that is "unknown to the speaker" is an angelic heavenly language and it IS known to the "hearer"...for the hearer is God.
</font>[/QUOTE]Then it is quite evident that you don't agree. Foreign langauges are understood by men, are heard by men, can be translated by men, as Paul commands them to be. You are referring to something completely different, something not referred to in the Bible, something made-up, something not tuaught, an unBiblical doctrine. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach "a heavenly language" that only God can understand.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:

By your own conclusion, tongues was only for the entire church, not to be used privately in prayer or for any other reason--but to edify the whole church.

That is not what I meant. What I meant is for tongues to edify the church it must be understood. How I pray in private or the things I talk about with my wife may not be edifying in an assembly setting. So I would refrain from sharing those things which should be kept private.</font>

But it is what Paul meant. No where in the Scriptures do you find any doctrine of a private prayer in tongues. That is unScriptural. Speaking in tongues was always public, always for the edification of the whole church, always had to be interpreted. If those conditions were not there one was not allowed to speak in tongues (including pray). It was for the church, not outside of the church. That automatically excludes a prayer life in tongues. Why? It does not edify the church.

List all of the gifts of the Spirit and tell me which ones could be used selfishly in the way that you described? How many gifts of the Spirit could be used outsided of the church, or just for one's own benefit
Helps--just for yourself?
Healing--just for yourself?
Administration--just for yourself?
Prophecy--just for yourself?
teaching--just for yourself?
miracles--just for yourself?

All these gifts were for the entire church, as was tongues. None of them were to be used selfishly for ones own selfish edification. Tongues was a gift for the entire church--always. It was never a private prayer language.

Scripture says "Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful."

Doesn't that seem to you that what Paul was talking about was prayer in a tongue which was an unintelligble prayer that not even the person understood.

No, The prayer was perfecly intelligble. The one who had the gift of tongues didn't have an interpreter, and therefore it seemed unintelligble, just as if I were to speak Arabic or some other mid-eastern langauge to you. If God gave me that ability you wouldn't understand. It would be a mystery. For the same person to try and pray in an unknown language would be somewhat unfuitful as well. Prayer is communication. He is far more conversant with God in his own language than any other. Therefore his spirit might be in the right place, but his mind is unfruitful, because he really doesn't have a good grasp of that language. It is miraculously given to him only for one purpose--to edify the believers. I don't believe he had that language on a permanent basis. They were given for certain times and occasions, when needed.

Therefore only their spirit prayed. The person who prayed in a tongue was to also pray for an interpretation.

This is only if there was no interpter present, as Paul clarifies later on. If there is no interpreter let him keep silence in the church. The verse is a rebuke to those who speak in tongues without interpretation. Only their spirit prayed. Therefore don't do it. That is his message. The whole church was not edified, therefore don't speak in tongues.

The only way a body can be edified is if each person understands. Therefore there must be an interpretation for the body to be edified.

That is correct, and that is why praying in an unknown language is wrong. It doesn't edify the whole body.
DHK

 

[D28guy]

DHK...

Nowhere in the Bible does it teach "a heavenly language" that only God can understand.

The word of God:

"For though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels..."

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. For no one understands him. However, in the Spirit he speaks mysteries"

"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself..." (notice again, no rebuke here) "...but he who prophesies edifies the church. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied"

He wishes they all spoke in tongues, and what does tongues include?...

"For though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels..."

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. For no one understands him. However, in the Spirit he speaks mysteries"

Just like today.

"What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the Spirit, and I will pray with the understanding. I will sing with the Spirit, and I will sing with the understanding"

Grace, peace, and Merry Christmas,

Mike

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

1 Cor 14-21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

He was speaking about the Jews.

He said other people will speak to them in other languages.

Even then they will not hear what he is really saying.

There are still Jews here today.

He may still speak to them in other languages.

The scripture above in no way says it will only happen once, at one point in time.

It does not say it will happen once and then pass away.

Tam

God does't lie.
The Bible says "God is not a man that he should lie."
He said that prophecy, tongues, and (revelatory) knowledge would all come to an end or cease. Does he lie? The Charismatic posters on this board make God a liar in the sense that they change the word cease to "continue." They make the statement to read that. Prophecy, tongues, and knowledge shall continue. That is not what God said.

Think of it this way. God is making a contrast between certain gifts, and their importance. What is the most important gift of all? He tells us that very clearly? Verses 8 and 13:
"Love never fails"
"The greatest of these is love"
The greatest gift is love. It will continue on throughout eternity. It will never end. It is the only gift that will endure throughout eternity and will never come to an end. All other gifts will cease at some time.

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
--Faith and hope still abide or remain. They did in Paul's day, and they do now, 21 centuries later. When will they cease (for they certainly will). We walk by faith and not by sight. When Christ comes Faith will cease. The same is true of hope, since Christ is our hope. Both faith and hope will cease at the coming of Christ. These are the two gifts that will cease at the coming of Christ.

Therefore, the three temporary gifts mentioned: prophecy, tongues, and (reveletory) knowledge, will cease sometime before the coming of Christ. They will not last as long as love (throughout eternity). They will not last as long as faith and hope (to the coming of Christ). They will cease. They will cease well before the coming of Christ. Paul is drawing a comparison. These were temporary gifts that served for a temporary period of time. They were still in operation at the time of Paul's writing (55 A.D.), but they did cease not too long after that, and definitely before the end of the first century. The sign gifts were for a sign. Signs don't last for 21 centuries. The signs of an apostle and the apostles' message--the gospel have already been cofirmed (Heb.2:3,4; 2Cor.12:12). The sign of tongues has already been given to the Jews and rejected. They rejected their Messiah (John 1:11), and they rejected the apostolic message, as is evident by the stoning of Stephen. The prophetic message of Isa.28:11,12 quoted by Paul in 1Cor.14:21 came true. They knew judgement was imminent, and it was. It came in 70 A.D., and thus that sign was also fulfilled. There is no more reason for these signs to be in place. They were removed by the end of the first century.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by D28guy:
DHK...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Nowhere in the Bible does it teach "a heavenly language" that only God can understand.

The word of God:

"For though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels..."

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. For no one understands him. However, in the Spirit he speaks mysteries"

"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself..." (notice again, no rebuke here) "...but he who prophesies edifies the church. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied"

He wishes they all spoke in tongues, and what does tongues include?...

"For though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels..."

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. For no one understands him. However, in the Spirit he speaks mysteries"

Just like today.

"What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the Spirit, and I will pray with the understanding. I will sing with the Spirit, and I will sing with the understanding"

Grace, peace, and Merry Christmas,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]If it is a distinct possibility that Paul spoke with the tonges of angels (which it isn't), then logically it is a distinct possiblity that Paul "had all knowledge" a claim to deity which is blasphemous.
He didn't say he could do either one.
All of these statements are purely hypothetical.
Even if he could do these things, and have not love they would be useless things to do. That is what he is saying. Nowhere does he admit even the possibility of doing these things.
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

God does't lie.
The Bible says "God is not a man that he should lie."
He said that prophecy, tongues, and (revelatory) knowledge would all come to an end or cease. Does he lie? God does't lie.
*********************************

You're right!! God does not lie!! He did say all these things would cease.

The Charismatic posters on this board make God a liar in the sense that they change the word cease to "continue." They make the statement to read that. Prophecy, tongues, and knowledge shall continue. That is not what God said.

No we do not change it to continue.

He just didn't say it would cease when you say it did!!

We're on HIS time table, not yours!!

Peace,

Tam

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

God does't lie.
The Bible says "God is not a man that he should lie."
He said that prophecy, tongues, and (revelatory) knowledge would all come to an end or cease. Does he lie? God does't lie.
*********************************

You're right!! God does not lie!! He did say all these things would cease.

The Charismatic posters on this board make God a liar in the sense that they change the word cease to "continue." They make the statement to read that. Prophecy, tongues, and knowledge shall continue. That is not what God said.

No we do not change it to continue.

He just didn't say it would cease when you say it did!!

We're on HIS time table, not yours!!

Peace,

Tam

Tam I have pointed out to you repeatedly how Scripture shows that these temporary gifts cannot last as long as you suggest. I give you Scripture. You reply: You are wrong, for no other reason than you say I am wrong. Not much of a debate there, is it?
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

So sad.