Speaking in Tongues Continued

[Phillip]

Funny, if you read all of Paul's statements about tongues, he is correcting the church from its abuse of such gifts and being a diplomat in the process. It is interesting that today's charismatics take the lowest gift on Paul's list and make it such a high level issue---including Baptism of the Spirit. I don't think Paul would be so negative about it, if it had something to do with something so important.

Read Paul's letters in context, don't pull out scripture here and there. Paul is saying that although he can speak different languages of men and even angels that it does no good. Tongues is foreign languages, period. It isn't the psycho-babble of today's charismatics. If the charismatics of today placed all of the restrictions on speaking in foreign languages that Paul brought forth in the Bible, it would certainly not be a gift used today.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Phillip,

Yes, God has Paul correct some abuses of the 'gift of tongues & interpretation' that were going on in the Corinthian church. It these gifts were of the Devil the Lord would have said so and Paul would have forbidden there use in that church. By correcting some mistakes God is guaranteeing that these events were of the Lord.

Secondly, the Assembly of God people do not elevate this gift but their pastors do understand it. I do not agree with them that the 'baptism of the Spirit' is when a person receives the gift of tongues. We are baptized into the Spirit of God when we first get saved. I do know in their churches they do worship the Lord with an openness that I have never seen in other churches.

Your language theory is just that--a theory and a poor attempt at the Book of Acts and I Corinthians 12 & 14 at that.

Between the correcting of the abuse in the Corinthian church in chapter 13 the Lord tells us the most important thing is that we love Jesus and His brethren. Without this any of our spirituality is nothing!

For gb93433, Tammy and I we cannot understand how you 'outsource' the Holy Spirit to other agents.

I would love to know how DHK got saved, but I do realize for some people, they might not want to explain how they found Jesus as Savior or how He found them and brought them into the Christian faith.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

So sad.

Yep, disobaying God's clear command:

1Co 14:39 (KJV1611 Edition):
Wherefore brethren, couet to prophesie, and
forbid not to speake with tongues.

Forbiding to speak with tongues by
defining the Spiritual Gift away is
still a violation of this command.

Phillip: // Funny, if you read all of Paul's statements about tongues,
he is correcting the church from its abuse of such gifts
and being a diplomat in the process.//

Phillip: //Tongues is foreign languages, period. It isn't
the psycho-babble of today's charismatics.//

Your two statements are self-contradictory.
There would be absolutely no reason for Paul to be
"correcting the church from its abuse" if 'tongues' means
'foreign languages'. The only reason for "correcting
the church from its abuse" is because it was
exactly the same as (in Phillip's words): "psycho-babble of
today's charismatics".

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

Secondly, the Assembly of God people do not elevate this gift but their pastors do understand it. I do not agree with them that the 'baptism of the Spirit' is when a person receives the gift of tongues. We are baptized into the Spirit of God when we first get saved. I do know in their churches they do worship the Lord with an openness that I have never seen in other churches.

Your language theory is just that--a theory and a poor attempt at the Book of Acts and I Corinthians 12 & 14 at that.

Your theory: Tongues are for today because the Assembly of God churches speak in tongues. Your theology is based on experience and not the Word of God.
Philip, Hope of Glory, and myself have given you Scripture which you have been unable to refute. In fact you ignore it, and resort to experience. "It must be true becasue people do it." That is not a valid argument. Our standard is the Word of God, not people's experiences. People take drugs such s heroin, also. That doesn't make it right. Neither does the practice of speaking in tongues make it right.

I would love to know how DHK got saved, but I do realize for some people, they might not want to explain how they found Jesus as Savior or how He found them and brought them into the Christian faith.

I got saved after being 20 years in the Roman Catholic Church. I heard the gospel for the first time when it was presented to me by a student on the campus of a university. I was saved after hearing the gospel, realizing my sinfulness, and my need for a Saviour, I trusted Christ as my Saviour. I have never looked back since.
DHK

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
For gb93433, Tammy and I we cannot understand how you 'outsource' the Holy Spirit to other agents.

Not quite sure what you mean.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by DHK:
That is correct, and that is why praying in an unknown language is wrong. It doesn't edify the whole body.

There are many things which believers do in private that would not edify the assembly. That does not make it unscriptural. What I do with my wife in private is not something which should even be mentioned past my wife and me.

I do not agree with your basic premise of tongues always being a known language. If one studies the history of Cornith there were ecstatic utterances. I do not believe for one second thay you can build an entire theoogy of cessation based on 1 Cor 14 alone. If one does that then he must do away with knowledge as well.

Like I wrote earlier I have not come across one grammar, lexicon or theological dictionary which states tongues has ceased and is only a foreign language. Ecstatic utterance have not ceased. They are still happening today. What Paul does is to put a control on it by stating if one speaks in a tongue then an interpreter must be present. When the interpretation is given then the body is edified because it understands the message.

Foreign languages do not need an interpreter today. Languages cna be figured out by those who understand language. W.F. Albright was one who had never seen some languages which he was able to translate. Those languages have a grammer today because of his work. He is not an interpreter for a tongues speaker.

If you leave out the gift of tongues which others listed in the Word of God do you also include or throw away. I am not willing to throw away what God has inspired in His word. What I am willing to do is if tongues does come into a church where I am speaking I will ask for an interpretation and if that does not happen the person will be asked to remain quiet or leave.

 

[tamborine lady]

Let it be known that there are a lot of people today who have more than one of the gifts. Myself included. I have been slain in the spirit, (fallen under the power)and am sure that it was of God!!

Most of the gifts are in effect today whether anyone believes it or not.

Being slain in the spirit, or falling under the power happens a few times a month at our church.

It is in the bible. It is biblical. What more can I say.

Peace,

Tam

 

[gb93433]

1 Cor. 13:1 "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

If tongues is a foreign language can someone who believes that tell me what the tongues of angels is?

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

You said, 'Benny Hinn is a heretic, possibly demon-possessed. he is not a Christian. His theology does not even come close to Christian theology.'

You probably believe that Finney of old and the present day--Copeland and the black preach--is his name Jakes and other people who believe in the deeper life in the Spirit are not of God either. Correct me if I am wrong about your belief or lack of trust in these people.' [End Quote].

You went on to say, 'He even believes that it was satan that atoned for our sins and not Jesus.'

This is outrageous--your statement above. It is a hateful statment made about another brother in the faith.' [End Quote}.

You said, 'Benny Hinn, and others like him push people back ward.'

Does Pastor Hinn look like a full-back type to you? And then I guess Hinn tells them to lie down and fake it. Get real! [End Quote].

Your next statement was, 'Others in the crowd fall backward under a semi-hypnotic spell, or even a demonic influence. It is not of God.'

This is an off the scope claim. And you think that from the other things you have written on the board, that we should believe in your firm claim? I do not see it happening in this life time.[End Quote].

You said, 'It is not Biblical. It has not Biblical support. It has much support showing it to be of the devil, but not of God.'

What ideas do you think prove your argument that Hinn is not of the Lord. He is a converted Jew. You ought to read the story of his early life up until now and maybe you would learn to accept other pastors as actually being within the flock of the Lord.

I have heard him on T.V. asking people to invite Jesus into their hearts and lives. This is what I always preached while in the pastorate. Anyone who believes that Jesus is Divine--who really believes and trusts in Him is saved. (I John 4:2} [End Quote].

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

I have heard him on T.V. asking people to invite Jesus into their hearts and lives. This is what I always preached while in the pastorate. Anyone who believes that Jesus is Divine--who really believes and trusts in Him is saved. (I John 4:2} [End Quote].

He doesn't believe Jesus is divine. He believes that Jesus gave up his divinity and gave it to those that believe on him. He believes that we are divine. It is the little god theory. It is not Jesus that is divine; it is we that are divine, Hinn says. "We are little gods running around on the earth," Benny Hinn said. That is heresy.
DHK

 

[gb93433]

An expose was done on TV about Benny Hinn. It seems to me that from what I saw it was much the same as Robert Tilton.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by gb93433:
1 Cor. 13:1 "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

If tongues is a foreign language can someone who believes that tell me what the tongues of angels is?

Angelic (which is very close
to Anglo-ic (AKA: English)

)

 

[Ray Berrian]

gb93433,

I fully agree with your post on page 15 at the top of the page.

I do not see the 'gifts and the interpretation' being ministered by God where He is not wanted in certain churches. Don't hold your breath.

Ray

 

[Ray Berrian]

gb93433,

I said, 'For gb93433, Tammy and I we cannot understand how you 'outsource' the Holy Spirit to other agents.'

You said, 'Not quite sure what you mean.'

I am saying that another brother on the board attributes present day 'tongues and the interpretation of tongues' as coming from the Devil.

I was trying to say that God does not outsource His gifts for Christians to say they come from Satan. Sometimes in some churches these gifts make themselves manifest among God's people. [End Quote].

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

You said, 'Benny Hinn is a heretic, possibly demon-possessed. he is not a Christian. His theology does not even come close to Christian theology.'

December 4, 1999 (David W. Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061-0368, fbns@wayoflife.org) - On Trinity Broadcasting Network’s Praise the Lord program, October 19, 1999, Benny Hinn told Paul Crouch that the time is coming in which thousands of dead will be raised when their bodies are put in front of television sets while TBN is broadcasting. Following is a transcript of the program:

BENNY HINN: But here’s first what I see for TBN. You’re going to have people raised from the dead watching this network. You’re going to have people raised from the dead watching TBN. … I’m telling you, I see this in the Spirit. It’s going to be so awesome--Jesus I give you praise for this--that people around the world--maybe not so much in America--people around the world who will lose loved ones, will say to undertakers, ‘Not yet. I want to take my dead loved one and place him in front of that TV set for 24 hours.’ …

I’m telling you, I can feel the anointing talking here. People are going to be canceling funeral services and bringing their dead in their caskets, placing them--my God! I feel the anointing here--placing them before a television set, waiting for God’s power to come through and touch them. And it’s going to happen time and time--so much it’s going to spread. You’re going to hear it from Kenya to Mexico to Europe to South America, where people will be raised from the dead. So much so that the word will spread that if some dead person be put in front of this TV screen, they will be raised from the head and they will be by the thousands. …

I see rows of caskets lining up in front of this TV set and I see them bringing them closer to the TV set and as people are coming closer I see loved ones picking up the hands of the dead and letting them touch the screen and people are getting raised as their hands are touching that screen. …

Now here’s something else I see. … the day is going to come when the gifts of the Holy Spirit will so intensify in the church that young children will be watching TBN and signs and wonders will begin to take place through them. Impartations of the Spirit will come to them (Benny Hinn, Praise the Lord, Trinity Broadcasting Network, October 19, 1999).

_________________________

Benny Hinn is a dangerous false prophet. The Bible does not promise a miracle-working revival at the end of the church age before the return of Christ. It promises, rather, great deception.

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show GREAT SIGNS AND WONDERS; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matthew 24:24).

FundamentalBaptistLibrary2000/WWW/qindex.htm
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

You said, 'Hinn says. "We are little gods running around on the earth . . .'

If he said this, I think he probably meant that we are little Christs because His Spirit lives in our lives. Are we not called Christ--ians? Christ is our Lord and Savior and if we are not holy we will not get to Heaven.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by gb93433:
1 Cor. 13:1 "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

If tongues is a foreign language can someone who believes that tell me what the tongues of angels is?

Whether in the Old Testament, New Testament, or even in the Book of Revelation, no angel ever spoke in anything other than a language known to humans. Angels had the ability to speak the language to any person that God sent them to: whether it was to Manoah, Daniel, Lot, Jacob, Elizabeth, Zechariah, etc. They could speak perfectly, flawlessly, without any grammatical mistake, and very eloquently in whatever language God sent them to deliver his message. Their is no indication that they spoke anything else but a human language. If you can get something other than that out of Scripture I would like to see it.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

You said, 'Hinn says. "We are little gods running around on the earth . . .'

If he said this, I think he probably meant that we are little Christs because His Spirit lives in our lives. Are we not called Christ--ians? Christ is our Lord and Savior and if we are not holy we will not get to Heaven.

Their theology is that we are divine. Christian means follower of Christ. We are not divine. To say that we are divine is heresy.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

There is a lot of error floating around the world. Hinn probably said things that should not have been said; he is a flamboyant personality.

I always had my messages outlined and stayed with my message so I did not say things that might not be true.

I believe if a person preaches each Sunday on one of the Five Points of Calvinism that he or she is a false teacher.

Everything is a matter of interpretation so apparently we should not be too quick to discount each others faith.

I believe in the Rapture of the church and not including sinners at this event in I Thessalonians 4:16. Do you believe that only the saints will be taken into Heaven at this event, with the Second Coming taking place far into the future?

Again, everything is a matter of interpretation. We should try to focus on the Christian doctrine that we all believe in--so we have some credibility before the world of sinners.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gb93433:
1 Cor. 13:1 "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

If tongues is a foreign language can someone who believes that tell me what the tongues of angels is?

Angelic (which is very close
to Anglo-ic (AKA: English)

) </font>[/QUOTE]Can you show me in the Bible where Paul ever admitted to speaking in the tongues of angels?