Speaking in Tongues Continued

[Johnv]

If tongues is a foreign language can someone who believes that tell me what the tongues of angels is?

Since several of the Angels players are currently in contract negotiation with the ball club, I think it stands to reason that the tongues of Angels is a very good agent.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

There is a lot of error floating around the world. Hinn probably said things that should not have been said; he is a flamboyant personality.

I always had my messages outlined and stayed with my message so I did not say things that might not be true.

I believe if a person preaches each Sunday on one of the Five Points of Calvinism that he or she is a false teacher.

Everything is a matter of interpretation so apparently we should not be too quick to discount each others faith.

I believe in the Rapture of the church and not including sinners at this event in I Thessalonians 4:16. Do you believe that only the saints will be taken into Heaven at this event, with the Second Coming taking place far into the future?

Again, everything is a matter of interpretation. We should try to focus on the Christian doctrine that we all believe in--so we have some credibility before the world of sinners.

Benny Hinn adds,

The new creation is created after God in righteousness and true holiness. The new man is after God, like God, godlike, complete in Jesus Christ. The new creation is just like God. May I say it like this, "You are a little god on earth running around."

And then Hinn responded to criticism of such teaching this way, he said,

Now are you ready for some real revelation knowledge? Ok, now watch this! He laid aside His divine form so one day I would be clothed on earth with the divine form. Kenneth Hagin has a teaching; a lot of people have problems with it, yet it is absolute truth. Kenneth Copeland has a teaching, many Christians have put holes in it, but it is divine truth. Hagin and Copeland say, "You are god, you are gods." "Oh, I can't be God!" Hold it! Let's bring balance to this teaching. The balance is being taught by Hagin; it is those who repeat him that mess it up. The balance is being taught by Copeland, who is my dear friend, but it is those who repeat what he says that are messing it up. You see there brother, when Jesus was on earth, the Bible says that He first disrobed Himself of the divine form. He, the limitless God, became a man that we men may become as He is.

You'll notice in this that they land on the verses that indicate that we enter in and participate in some of the things that are true about God. But they take it to the extreme where we become God. We do participate in the love of God, don't we? And in the righteousness of God, and enjoy the grace of God, but are not God. Hagin says,

If we ever wake up and realize who we are we will start doing the work that we are supposed to do, because the Church hasn't realized yet that they are Christs, that's who they are. They are Christs.

Now, we are not only God we are Christ! Thus, have the Word Faith teachers agreed to dispose God and to put us in His place. From that basic error flow all the fallacies. Why do they teach that health and prosperity are every Christian's divine right? Because, we're God we deserve it! Right? If I am God I deserve prosperity. Why do they teach that a believer's words have creative and determinative force? Because in their system we're God, and God could speak things into creation, and we're God so we can speak them into creation. They have bought Satan's original lie. The serpent said to the woman, "You surely shall not die, for God knows that in the day you eat from this fruit, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God." That was a lie. Man will never be like God. We will be a glorified man not God. The idea that man can be like God, is and always has been the satanic lie. It was the very lie . . . listen to this, [that] brought the devil himself down. He said, "I will be like God."

This is from John MacArthur's book: "Charismatic Chaos," which he has documented from a conversation straight off of a TBN broadcast.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

You said, 'Whether in the Old Testament, New Testament, or even in the Book of Revelation, no angel ever spoke in anything other than a language known to humans. Angels had the ability to speak the language to any person that God sent them to: whether it was to Manoah, Daniel, Lot, Jacob, Elizabeth, Zechariah, etc. They could speak perfectly, flawlessly, without any grammatical mistake, and very eloquently in whatever language God sent them to deliver his message. Their is no indication that they spoke anything else but a human language. If you can get something other than that out of Scripture I would like to see it.

Finally, I agree with all of what you said above.

But, is it not possible that the language of God in relation to His angels/messengers might be a unique Heavenly language? Does anyone think that the Lord is going to speak to us in the English language? The Lord is in another dimension/realm.

God said through Paul,

'Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love I am become a sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.'

Paul could not speak all the earthly languages of the people and had no need to do so. He did not preach in Peru, South America. And apparently, Paul could not speak in the language of the Heavenly angels. Even if he could, loving the Lord and all other human beings is the better thing.

 

[Ed Edwards]

If you used the Bible definition of 'tongue':

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an vnknowen tongue,
speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God:
for no man vnderstandeth him:
howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Then you could plainly see that Paul did speak the
tongues of angels:

1Co 14:18 (KLJV1611 Edition):
I thanke my God, I speake with tongues
more then you all.

But, if you intend to stick with the
definition of 'estatic language' that
is made by men - then you must continue to
have faulted logic in your falted conclusions.

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

If I am not mistaken Dr. John Mac Arthur is a Five Point Calvinist. He has more error in his theology than Copeland who believes in salvation by faith, sanctification, the Rapture and the 'gifts of the Spirit, plus living a deeper life in the realm of the Spirit. I have learned from him but do not accept everything he says.

To some Dr. Mac Arthur types---their understanding of the Spirit of God is merely doctrine that might in many cases be correct, but they miss and do not emphasize living like Jesus and experiencing the fulness of joy offered by God the Holy Spirit.

Every teacher of the Word has some cintilla of error and we have to watch for it to surface and then thank the Lord for the things that they teach that are true.

 

[DHK]

Nevermind then what MacArthur said. Pay attention to the words of Benny Hinn that MacArthur quoted word for word off of TBN. You apparently have a bias for MacArthur. So be it then. But that doesn't change what Benny Hinn said.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

Paul could not speak all the earthly languages of the people and had no need to do so. He did not preach in Peru, South America. And apparently, Paul could not speak in the language of the Heavenly angels. Even if he could, loving the Lord and all other human beings is the better thing.

You are right. Paul couldn't speak Latin American languages, South American languages, North American languages, etc. Nor do we know what languages were spoken or are spoken in heaven. This was Paul's point all along. The statements are all hypothetical. He is saying even if he could speak in all the languages of the world that there were possible to speak in, and still not have love, it would profit him nothing. He wasn't making a claim to speak in angelic tongues or all the languages of the world, or anything like that. He was making an hyperbolic hypothetical statement to make a point that no matter what you do, if you don't do it with love, it is meaningless.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
If you used the Bible definition of 'tongue':

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an vnknowen tongue,
speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God:
for no man vnderstandeth him:
howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Is the word unknown in the Greek Ed?
Is the word unknown italicized in the KJV?
Is the word unkhown really in the KJV? Ed.
Be honest about this matter.
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

Words of DHK:You are right. if you don't do it with love, it is meaningless.
DHK

Then perhaps we should try to show Christian Love to each other on this board. That would be a good place to start, don't you think?

Peace,

Tam

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Sister tamborine lady - you are RIGHT ON!

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:


That is why you students of the Word must study Greek so you find out the areas of where the translators have injected extra words and wrong words as in I John 3:9 where in the KJV you read 'commit' when in fact the Greek word is (poiea) meaning practice. And then, in fact it is in the present active tense which means that a true Christian cannot make a practice of sinning because the 'seed' the Holy Spirit takes permanent residence in the born again Christian.

I do use the KJV only because I think it is easier to learn how to remember verses in the Bible. In all of my studies I have used the KJV. I don't refer to translations in English because some weak Christians think that the Apostle Paul wrote his N.T. epistles in the English, KJV.

The KJV translators admitted they added the word. They admit the word is not in there. That's why it's in italics.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Hope of Glory,

In my KJV ---an A.J. Holman Company Bible, the word commit is not in italics. This is why people think that a Christian cannot sin or he is not a Christian. Thanks to to the translators of the KJV.

Study the Greek language, then no one can confuse you.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Hope of Glory,

That is why John who got saved yesterday should not be trying to preach and teach others, when he is not qualified. This is why denominations set qualification to make it difficult for a person to become a man or woman of God who can instruct other people. Some people are not even qualified emotionally/psychologically to be ministering in a church.

They can witness to what Jesus has done for them and the life He has taken them out of, but not to actively be preaching.

I think it was Paul who said, in effect, 'Lay your hands suddenly on no man.'

 

[Ray Berrian]

If Mac Arthur is a five point Calvinist he is teaching more error than what you allegedly say Pastor Hinn is doing. In your words, DHK, this writer writes heretical things, things that do not agree with the N.T. teaching.

Personally, I do not believe 98% of what some non-Pentecostal denominational official says about the man Rev. Hinn. A lot of hate mongering. Push the other minister down so you look as though you are better than him. Jealous, etc.

Everything I have ever heard him preach on T.V. was not off the scope, as some of you guys suggest about him.

Those who protest a lot about Hinn will never have passing through their church doors, as many as he preaches to in one crusade.

The Holy Spirit draws the people and they appreciate the blessing that he gives to the people who receive the blessing of the Lord. As I said the Spirit of God touches the people and often Hinn never even touches their body. God the Spirit is imminent/close to people who desire Him to be close to them.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Sorry, I quoted the wrong thing. I was referring to "unknown".

However, to answer part of your statement. Am I to infer that you think I'm a KJVO?

To answer the other part, "commit" is certainly an incorrect translation there. The word is a present, active, participle, just as it is in verse 4, and just as sinning is in verse 8.

Also, "he cannot sin" is a wrong translation. The present, active, infinitive means "and he cannot go on sinning". I think the idea here is the same as in Romans 6:1 and is contrasted with Romans 6:15.

Although I quoted a part that I did not intend, I guess the part I quoted needed an answer as well.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Brian30755:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />John was taken spiritually (via a vision) and given a view of the exalted Christ, things in heaven, and things that will come to pass here on earth. No one alive on this earth today has had the exact same experience.

You know every experience that every person alive on this earth today has had? Are you God? </font>[/QUOTE]No I'm not God. So... who on earth today has been in the presence of the exalted Christ, saw His physical presence, heard His audible voice with their own physical ears? Anyone?

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I am saying that another brother on the board attributes present day 'tongues and the interpretation of tongues' as coming from the Devil.

I would say that any gift can be used to glorify God or Satan. Many preachers stand up on Sunday and escort God out of the building by their desire to be first and draw attention to themselves. Then there are those who use the same gift God gave to give Him glory, honor and praise. No gift automatically goves honor to God. It is the use of the gift which gives glory to God or not.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
If Mac Arthur is a five point Calvinist he is teaching more error than what you allegedly say Pastor Hinn is doing. In your words, DHK, this writer writes heretical things, things that do not agree with the N.T. teaching.

Don't make public accusations unless you can back them up. I don't believe that MacArthur is a five point five Calvinist. Even if he was that would only hurt your pride, not his or your theology. Calvinism in and of itself is not heresy. It is a doctrinal position. If you want to argue that go to the C/A forum. I don't care to discuss it here. Personally I am not a Calvinist, but I recognize many who are.
Hinn does not believe in the trinity. Heresy.
Hinn does not believe in the deity of Christ, rather that Christ shed that deity--Heresy.
Hinn believes that Christ went down to Hell for three days to negotiate with the devil for payment for our sins. It was really the devil that paid for our sins and not Christ. Heresy.
Hinn believes that all believers possess divinity. Heresy.

A heretic after the first and second admonition reject. This man is not a Christian. He is a heretic whose teaching needs to be spewed out and rejected. He serves neither the God of the Bible nor the Christ of the Bible. Neither believes the atonement of Christ provided by the blood of Christ. Why do you even believe this man to be a Chrisian?
H

Personally, I do not believe 98% of what some non-Pentecostal denominational official says about the man Rev. Hinn. A lot of hate mongering. Push the other minister down so you look as though you are better than him. Jealous, etc.

You are biased, have not done your homework on Benny Hinn, are ignorant concerning his beliefs, and are unable to discern between heresy and Christians truth. I feel sorry for you.

Everything I have ever heard him preach on T.V. was not off the scope, as some of you guys suggest about him.

It is that gift of spiritual discernment that you have. Do your homework.

Those who protest a lot about Hinn will never have passing through their church doors, as many as he preaches to in one crusade.

The Bible commands us to reject heretics.
2 Corinthians 6:14-16 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The Holy Spirit draws the people and they appreciate the blessing that he gives to the people who receive the blessing of the Lord. As I said the Spirit of God touches the people and often Hinn never even touches their body. God the Spirit is imminent/close to people who desire Him to be close to them.

What Hinn does is not of God. He is not a Christian. Any person who believes the atonement is in the devil is not of God.
DHK

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Wake Forest, North Carolina,

Years ago I even heard of people at the point of getting saved, at that event, 'speaking in tongues.' You guys like to put God in a box and lock it with your 'personal interpretation key.'

No idea what you are talking about here. What event are you talking about? What does Wake Forest, NC have to do with any part of our discussion? Don't know what "personal interpretation key" you are talking about. All I did was read the two Scriptures that you referenced in support of your claim and I noticed that the experiences detailed in Scripture do not come close to corresponding with the personal experience you describe. Thus, you are comparing apples to oranges.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I inferred that you used the KJV. Yes, and I got your reaction and it was fun at that.

Why would you intentionally seek to "get a reaction" from me simply for the purpose of having a bit of fun at my expense? Such an attitude is considered as “Trolling” on some Internet message boards and often results in the person losing posting privileges. I thought we were involved in a serious discussion of the Word of God. If you want to make jokes or attempt to win some kind of personal one-upmanship points, please do it somewhere else.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
When the 'light from Heaven' approached Saul, I am sure you would say that his experience was of God. And what happened to him? (He) fell to the earth. . .' Slain by the Holy Spirit of God. Without a bias you will let this idea stand as stated.

The text does not mention any "slaying by the Holy Spirit" in Acts 9:4. What the text does say is that a light from heaven flashed around Saul (Acts 9:3). Then he (Saul) fell to the ground and he heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me (Acts, 9:4)?" Then Saul asked, "Who are you, Lord (Acts 9:5a)?" Then the Lord replied, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting, but rise and enter the city and you will be told what you are to do (Acts 9:5b-6)."

Saul was in the presence of the exalted Christ. The text does not mention that God the Holy Spirit or God the Father were also present. It only says that Jesus was there speaking in an audible voice to Saul. Saul's experience in Acts 9 does not correspond to the personal experience you detail below.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
When you get close enough to God in your personal life you will sense a deep fear, respect, and reverence for the Lord. I am not saying that you do not have this. What I am saying is keep in mind, Moses, in the cleft of the rock.

I do have all those things. Like Moses I would love to be able to see God's glory. However, like Moses because of my sinful nature and frail human condition I could not stand the full force of seeing God's glory face to face. It would kill me. Again, we are talking about God the Father here (if we stick with a literal, historical grammatical reading and understanding of the text in question). So what does Moses being in the presence of God the Father on the mount have to do with someone having this personal experience (like you detail below) of "being slain in the Spirit"? The two experiences do not correspond.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
John turned and heard a voice in Revelation 1:12. His experience of falling before the Lord in vs. 17 is not hyperbole; this actually happened. If this did not happen God would not have had reason to use the words 'Fear not; I am the first and the last.'

I agree that it happened. The Bible clearly says that it happened. However, again John was in the presence of the exalted Christ and he heard Christ's audible voice when it happened. This biblical experience does not correspond with the experience you detail below. According to your story you were not in the presence of the exalted Christ and you did not hear His audible voice. So where is the connection between the two experiences?

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Those experiencing being 'slain in the Spirit' in Pastor Hinn's services have this happen because the Holy Spirit has touched them via the minister.
Notice, sometimes he does not even touch them.

Do we have any directly corresponding examples of the Holy Spirit touching anyone through a minister in the Scriptures?

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Lastly, one time in Bible College I fell under the power of the Holy Spirit. I was sitting 'Indian style' on the floor in a dorm room with about four other Christian men and I sensed that some Presence was coming toward me from above corner of the room, and it was like a fluffy pillow pushed me over. I thought this is stupid tried to sit up to restore my dignity and could not move. It felt like 'liquid Divine love was being poured into my soul. I cannot tell you how long a period of time this was but I could sense that His Presence was withdrawing from my body. I prayed to the Lord and begged Him to allow this to happen at least one more time before my death. I have never experienced this again, nor do I search for spiritual experiences.

The experience you have detailed above does not correspond to the biblical experiences that you have referenced in its support. I can't say for sure what happened to you (or more correctly what caused it to happen to you). There simply is no account in the Bible that directly corresponds to what you have detailed here. At least be intellectually honest here and say, “This is what happened to me. There is no biblical account that corresponds with what I believe I experienced. I know what I think happened, but I can’t prove it from the text of Scripture. Therefore, I can’t say with 100% biblical certainty what really happened.”

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
At times I am over come in my spirit to the point of tears at home or at church when I realized all of Jesus' wonderful blessings in my life that I do not deserve.

Me too. However, our emotions do not determine biblical truth. If we allow our feelings, emotions, and personal experiences to dictate truth to us we place them in a position of authority over the Word. That is a problem and results in faulty hermeneutics and poor exegesis (actually results in eisegesis) of the Scripture.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I am sure there are a couple of other Christians on this board who have experienced this. The point is no one can throw up 'road barriers' in their spiritual life and then expect the Holy Spirit to override their free will to receive from the Lord God.

I, of course, be curious if Tam has ever been disabled by the Presence of the Holy Spirit in a similar way as to my experience while in Bible College. Trustingly she will respond and let us know about her personal relationship to the Lord as to this phenemonon.

In a previous post you agreed with me when I said:

I agree so long as what they say falls in line with the clear objective teaching of the Scripture. If not it must be rejected as error. We must pass our feelings and experiences through the sieve of the Word and not try to force the Word through the sieve of our feelings and experiences. If we do that (pass the Word through our feelings and experiences) we set ourselves up as an authority over the Word. The Word is and must always be our final authority.

And you agreed with me when I said:

I agree. Furthermore, I maintain that there is only one correct interpretation of the Word. That correct interpretation of the Word is the interpretation and meaning that the author of Scripture intended when He inspired it to be written. Our job is to expose (preach) that correct Holy Spirit inspired interpretation through the use of sound hermeneutics and solid exegesis of the text of Scripture.

So now let’s put our common belief and agreement to these two above quoted statements into practice and allow the Word of God to be the final authority over our feelings and experiences. Otherwise you will be simply giving intellectual ascent to these principles and continuing in practice to allow personal feelings and experiences to be the authority over the Word of God and to dictate what you wish to believe to be truth. Let’s be intellectually honest here and admit that the two biblical experiences you referenced in no way directly correspond to, and therefore do not support, the personal experience you have described.

[ December 21, 2005, 02:34 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

"If it is a distinct possibility that Paul spoke with the tonges of angels (which it isn't), then logically it is a distinct possiblity that Paul "had all knowledge" a claim to deity which is blasphemous."

We have already gone round and round about 3 times on that, and I have used the scriptures to show your view to be wrong.

Rather than type out a long response yet again, here is one of my posts again from much earlier in this thread...

DHK,

Here again is the passage of scripture that speaks of some brothers and sisters being able to speak a heavenly language by means of the gifting of the Holy Spirit...

(bolding mine)

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing."

You say that the little word "all" is to be taken *literally*, meaning that Paul means by the word "all" that he is saying... "If I were Almighty God with complete and total knowlege of this subject as completly as God knows it."

This is in spite of the fact that these passages of scripture...and there are of course hundreds if not thousands of others as well...that use the word all in *precisely* the same way...

I have become all things to all people"


"Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches"


"Indeed, I have all and abound"


"Because of the word that the woman testified, 'he told me all that I ever did'."

...and in none of those cases is the word "all" to be taken as you want to take the word "all" in the 1st passage

In adition...why are you choosing to ignore the passages that do no use that word?

"Though I speak with the tongues of men"

He doeasnt say "ALL the tongues of ALL mean, as if I were God Himself"

"though I have the gift of prophecy"

He doesnt say "have ALL the gift of prophecy that is possible, as if I were God Himself"

" though I give my body to be burned"

Nothing about being God Almighty there. Simply being a martyr.


Paul makes no great and mighty claim with those, just like he makes no great and mighty claim regarding having knowledge, having faith, or understanding mysteries. He is clearly bringing up many many things which are possible for us to participate in...including speaking in a heavenly language by gifting of the Holy Spirit...and he is making the point that all of it is secondary to love.

Nothing that you have posted disturbs in the least bit the point that the scriptures, and those such as myself and several others on this thread are making, regarding the gift of tongues. You are taking the interpretation of men regarding these passages, found in some commentaries and in some denominational seminaries...men who for whatever reasons are biased against these gifts...and imo taking their word for it, rather than simply reading the scriptures as written by God.

This is exactly what the Catholics do regarding what they are told they must believe from the Hierarchy of their false church!

I'm not trying to put you down in the least, brother. I'll proudly stand shoulder to shoulder with you in any number of situations...as you know I have in other threads here at this fine forum site(such as the Catholic ones)...and if some heathen or pagan wants to go toe to toe with you they will have me to deal with as well. I'll "have your back" as the kids say.

But so many brothers and sisters on this thread have given scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture, and yet you say things like "you have offered no scriptural proof".

Yes we have. Over and over again.

In His love,

Mike</font>[/QUOTE]There...now that was a whole lot easier that typing it all out again!

Grace and peace,

Mike