When I said 'as long as humans are involved', I meant other humans. Of course we can be sure when God is dealing with us. Suggest you consider the above with that in mind. Sorry for not being more clear.
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Speaking in Tongues ... Does YOUR Church Allow it?
- Thread starter righteousdude2
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When I said 'as long as humans are involved', I meant other humans. Of course we can be sure when God is dealing with us. Suggest you consider the above with that in mind. Sorry for not being more clear.
Let me answer that!
Here we go again ... you are dead set on proving me a heretic, or worse. And while doing this, like Judith, you are not reading through what I have written. If you had you'd clearly understand that what I said is this:
How do those who vehemently support Dispensationalism versus Nondispensationalism know that their theory is of God or satan, or of man's frail inability to really grasp the end times according to what God says?
The same goes for Premillennialism, postmillennialism or amillennialism. There are at least three schools of thought, and when you add in the Disensationalist with the millennialist, the schools of thought grwo larger as do the gap or voids between what each side believes.
Then you have Calvinism and predestination[TULIP] versus the Free Will Baptist Doctrine that holds to the traditional Arminian position, based on the belief in a General Atonement, that it is possible to commit apostasy, or willfully reject one's faith. Faith is the condition for salvation, hence Free Will Baptists hold to "conditional eternal security." Many Christian denominations have been influenced by Arminian views on the will of man being freed by grace prior to regeneration, and many more hold to Calvinism.
I, for one, defintiely believe in my having free will to accept Jesus as my Savior, which I did in fact do on Christmas Eve, 1966...but somewhere along the way, I bought into the fact that like Calvinist believe, that nothing, but nothing can or will spearate me from the love of God. That my name has been recorded in the Lamb's book of Life, and that the blood in which it is written, cannot be erased, mainly because God does not have liguid paper in heaven! I am once saved, always saved, and I came to my salvation under my own free will!
Still, with all these difference of opinions within the Baptist congregations as a whole, according to you and Judith, one of these groups is not leaning on scripture; in fact they are leaning on false understanding and in turn they are false teachers, teaching a message that is not of God and if it is not of God it must be of the devil! Right? Or have I totally misunderstood you? Maybe that is why your number is disconnected? Because you do not want to hear anything other than what you have established as the truth according to you, and everyone else be cursed, or anathema?
That is the only reason that I said that no one really knows or has a definite answer to these questions or theories of theology, and because there is a failure to agree, and that failure results in separation of bodies of believers, then that is one more proof that not everyone knows, and that those that hold to theories opposite of yours TND, must be falsely led by false teachers and then these followers are for sure going to hell for following a doctrine other than what is the Gospel truth of God!!
Let me summize; You said - "If there is no harmony or peace in an action that is supposed to be a worshipful act, then it most assuredly is not from God.' Well I HAVE TO ASK - Is there truly HARMONY, within the collective body of Baptists? I say, there isn't and that leaves a lot to be explained, and according to you it is MOST ASSUREDLY NOT OF GOD [the lack of harmony or peace caused by the arguments over these doctrinal differences].
THEN you questioned the other brother when HE said, ""We cannot be certain if this is really from God??" Well, I ask you in all sincerity, can you be certain which one of the above theologies is really of God, and if it is [of God], than that must surely mean the other one aren't. So the ones you vehemently argue against, must not be of God, therefore those who adhere to these differences of opinions CLEARLY MUST NOT BE READING THE SAME BIBLE? And in fact must be of something, or someone else than God, and that leaves only the devil when we are talking about theology.
Then you say about me, "RD2's comment came directly from him, that when asked how he knew if this was from God, he said, "We can't!" And he said it with pride!". Have you suddenly been anointed with the gift of prohecy, or discernment? You must have as you boastfully proclaim that I said that in PRIDE? When in actuallity I said that is a spirit of sadness peppered with tremendous disappointment that there are so many differences between those who profess to be baptists, while in truth there is constant infighting over these doctinal issues.
no the truth from my lips and heart ... I really do not care one way or another if I was predestined or allowed to choose God by freewill. I do not care if time is under some for of dispenationalism, or whether the millennialism will be pre, post or mid. In fact the truth is a am a pure thinking panmillennialists ... in other words I believe everything will surely "Pan" out in the end! I have gone through this life carefully studying the teachings of many. Cautiously casting aside that which made no sense, or couldn't stan up to the scrutiny of His word; and I've allowed my theology to be completely influenced by the best of all worlds, and like I said, I don't care which group may be right and which grup may be wrong. Sadly it is totally disgusting that the churches on the face of this erth have decided to fight each other over trivial things like doctrines, when in fact sinners are still dying in their sin! If you think that is pride, may I suggest that you may be in a classic case of transference, transferring your own deepseated feelings over to me, because it is easier than believing you could be wrong!
I submit that each and every believer, when they get to heaven will find that God really had no preference over what you folks fight to make right. He is interested only, IMHO, in our willingness to witness, teach and make disciples of mankind!
No you have the rest of my story. And if you want to call me a heretic, may I suggest you look in a mirror and see that it may be a case of the kettle [you] calling the kettle, BLACK!? :thumbs:
Here we go again ... you are dead set on proving me a heretic, or worse. And while doing this, like Judith, you are not reading through what I have written. If you had you'd clearly understand that what I said is this:
How do those who vehemently support Dispensationalism versus Nondispensationalism know that their theory is of God or satan, or of man's frail inability to really grasp the end times according to what God says?
The same goes for Premillennialism, postmillennialism or amillennialism. There are at least three schools of thought, and when you add in the Disensationalist with the millennialist, the schools of thought grwo larger as do the gap or voids between what each side believes.
Then you have Calvinism and predestination[TULIP] versus the Free Will Baptist Doctrine that holds to the traditional Arminian position, based on the belief in a General Atonement, that it is possible to commit apostasy, or willfully reject one's faith. Faith is the condition for salvation, hence Free Will Baptists hold to "conditional eternal security." Many Christian denominations have been influenced by Arminian views on the will of man being freed by grace prior to regeneration, and many more hold to Calvinism.
I, for one, defintiely believe in my having free will to accept Jesus as my Savior, which I did in fact do on Christmas Eve, 1966...but somewhere along the way, I bought into the fact that like Calvinist believe, that nothing, but nothing can or will spearate me from the love of God. That my name has been recorded in the Lamb's book of Life, and that the blood in which it is written, cannot be erased, mainly because God does not have liguid paper in heaven! I am once saved, always saved, and I came to my salvation under my own free will!
Still, with all these difference of opinions within the Baptist congregations as a whole, according to you and Judith, one of these groups is not leaning on scripture; in fact they are leaning on false understanding and in turn they are false teachers, teaching a message that is not of God and if it is not of God it must be of the devil! Right? Or have I totally misunderstood you? Maybe that is why your number is disconnected? Because you do not want to hear anything other than what you have established as the truth according to you, and everyone else be cursed, or anathema?
That is the only reason that I said that no one really knows or has a definite answer to these questions or theories of theology, and because there is a failure to agree, and that failure results in separation of bodies of believers, then that is one more proof that not everyone knows, and that those that hold to theories opposite of yours TND, must be falsely led by false teachers and then these followers are for sure going to hell for following a doctrine other than what is the Gospel truth of God!!
Let me summize; You said - "If there is no harmony or peace in an action that is supposed to be a worshipful act, then it most assuredly is not from God.' Well I HAVE TO ASK - Is there truly HARMONY, within the collective body of Baptists? I say, there isn't and that leaves a lot to be explained, and according to you it is MOST ASSUREDLY NOT OF GOD [the lack of harmony or peace caused by the arguments over these doctrinal differences].
THEN you questioned the other brother when HE said, ""We cannot be certain if this is really from God??" Well, I ask you in all sincerity, can you be certain which one of the above theologies is really of God, and if it is [of God], than that must surely mean the other one aren't. So the ones you vehemently argue against, must not be of God, therefore those who adhere to these differences of opinions CLEARLY MUST NOT BE READING THE SAME BIBLE? And in fact must be of something, or someone else than God, and that leaves only the devil when we are talking about theology.
Then you say about me, "RD2's comment came directly from him, that when asked how he knew if this was from God, he said, "We can't!" And he said it with pride!". Have you suddenly been anointed with the gift of prohecy, or discernment? You must have as you boastfully proclaim that I said that in PRIDE? When in actuallity I said that is a spirit of sadness peppered with tremendous disappointment that there are so many differences between those who profess to be baptists, while in truth there is constant infighting over these doctinal issues.
no the truth from my lips and heart ... I really do not care one way or another if I was predestined or allowed to choose God by freewill. I do not care if time is under some for of dispenationalism, or whether the millennialism will be pre, post or mid. In fact the truth is a am a pure thinking panmillennialists ... in other words I believe everything will surely "Pan" out in the end! I have gone through this life carefully studying the teachings of many. Cautiously casting aside that which made no sense, or couldn't stan up to the scrutiny of His word; and I've allowed my theology to be completely influenced by the best of all worlds, and like I said, I don't care which group may be right and which grup may be wrong. Sadly it is totally disgusting that the churches on the face of this erth have decided to fight each other over trivial things like doctrines, when in fact sinners are still dying in their sin! If you think that is pride, may I suggest that you may be in a classic case of transference, transferring your own deepseated feelings over to me, because it is easier than believing you could be wrong!
I submit that each and every believer, when they get to heaven will find that God really had no preference over what you folks fight to make right. He is interested only, IMHO, in our willingness to witness, teach and make disciples of mankind!
No you have the rest of my story. And if you want to call me a heretic, may I suggest you look in a mirror and see that it may be a case of the kettle [you] calling the kettle, BLACK!? :thumbs:
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You are comparing apples with oranges. No one is suggesting superiority or greater worship like you have who believes in escatology. Also the tongues of today violate scripture. Like I asked you before if you are so sure this is real post a 1 minute recording of you speaking in this tongue you are talking about and I will be glad to go to 3 different churches and find three different people who claim to be able to translate tongues and post what they say. Then we will see for sure.
You are a mocker!
I have heard your continued and spiritually ridiculous challenges. It is the kind of stuff grade school children would be involved in, and I am not going to abuse the gifts by PERFORMING for you, or anyone else!
You say I am a false teacher, I say you are a mocker. And if I were you, I'd be careful with the line you are walking; it is close to committing blasphemy against the Spirit.
Paul writes in 1 Thess. 5:18-20, "in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus. Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances.…"
Matt. 12:31-32, "Therefore, I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."
Eph. 4:28-31, "Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment [cutting a one minute tape of an utterance would be doing something not according the the need of the moment], so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.…"
Galatians 6:7 (ESV), "Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap."
Matthew 5:11 (ESV), “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you andutter all kinds of evil against you falselyon my account."
Need I remind you of the three times the devil tempted the Lord? And He answered, "You are not to tempt God. What you are asking is for me to turn the rock to bread, or to cast myself off the cliff, and by doing so, Judith, you are mocking God by asking for a one minute sign or utterance that would not be used for the good or edification of others according to the need of the moment and will surely not give grace to those who hear, because you are not looking for grace, but rather "fodder' to load your cannons f judgement with!"
And you judged me for seeking signs. Is your attempt to get me to record something and play it back for you not merely an attempt to see or hear something so you can in turn mock it, judge and criticize it before others against me on this board???
If you want to hear tongues so badly, I suggest you go in person to your local AoG fellowship or a Pentecostal church. I am sure you will get a glimpse of what you seek. Oh, and be sure to take a tape recorder with you so you can take it back with you to your home or to your Baptist friends, and then you all can have yourself a good laugh as you MOCK what you heard! And if you need to carry your mocking a little further, YOU can record that sampling on the BOARD, and others can hear what you are begging me to do. I say shame on you! :tear:
In fact, I want to say this to you, and it is out of love, "Knock it off sister!
I am purposely ignoring your attempts to mock God, and this time it is me who is genuinely concerned for you, because it is like walking a tight rope over a sinful pit, and when you fall, and you will fall; you may find yourself in a place where no return is possible (Matthew 12:31-32).
You see, sister, not only do I not care what you think or believe when it comes to me, I ALSO have no need or reason to prove myself to you. The truth is, why would I want to prove myself to a sarcastic sister who is only going to use what she is asking for her own entertainment purposes in mocking me, and believe me if you mock me, you are mocking God.
You were concerned about me, but it is really me who is concerned about you as you continue to pick away at me. Drop it, and move on! If you are happy where you are at in your walk and life in Jesus, more power to you! I suggest you leave those of us who are also happy and content in our walk with Him, alone.
You have become obsessed with attacking me, and that is leading you into a sinful practice that shows an ugly side of you, and not the side of you that God would want you to show. I pray you stop with the harassment, and get back to what you do best, and that is loving Jesus and others, and growing in the love and tolerance. You will find yourself a much happier person! Shalom! :wavey:
I have heard your continued and spiritually ridiculous challenges. It is the kind of stuff grade school children would be involved in, and I am not going to abuse the gifts by PERFORMING for you, or anyone else!
You say I am a false teacher, I say you are a mocker. And if I were you, I'd be careful with the line you are walking; it is close to committing blasphemy against the Spirit.
Paul writes in 1 Thess. 5:18-20, "in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus. Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances.…"
Matt. 12:31-32, "Therefore, I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."
Eph. 4:28-31, "Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment [cutting a one minute tape of an utterance would be doing something not according the the need of the moment], so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.…"
Galatians 6:7 (ESV), "Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap."
Matthew 5:11 (ESV), “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you andutter all kinds of evil against you falselyon my account."
Need I remind you of the three times the devil tempted the Lord? And He answered, "You are not to tempt God. What you are asking is for me to turn the rock to bread, or to cast myself off the cliff, and by doing so, Judith, you are mocking God by asking for a one minute sign or utterance that would not be used for the good or edification of others according to the need of the moment and will surely not give grace to those who hear, because you are not looking for grace, but rather "fodder' to load your cannons f judgement with!"
And you judged me for seeking signs. Is your attempt to get me to record something and play it back for you not merely an attempt to see or hear something so you can in turn mock it, judge and criticize it before others against me on this board???
If you want to hear tongues so badly, I suggest you go in person to your local AoG fellowship or a Pentecostal church. I am sure you will get a glimpse of what you seek. Oh, and be sure to take a tape recorder with you so you can take it back with you to your home or to your Baptist friends, and then you all can have yourself a good laugh as you MOCK what you heard! And if you need to carry your mocking a little further, YOU can record that sampling on the BOARD, and others can hear what you are begging me to do. I say shame on you! :tear:
In fact, I want to say this to you, and it is out of love, "Knock it off sister!
I am purposely ignoring your attempts to mock God, and this time it is me who is genuinely concerned for you, because it is like walking a tight rope over a sinful pit, and when you fall, and you will fall; you may find yourself in a place where no return is possible (Matthew 12:31-32).
You see, sister, not only do I not care what you think or believe when it comes to me, I ALSO have no need or reason to prove myself to you. The truth is, why would I want to prove myself to a sarcastic sister who is only going to use what she is asking for her own entertainment purposes in mocking me, and believe me if you mock me, you are mocking God.
You were concerned about me, but it is really me who is concerned about you as you continue to pick away at me. Drop it, and move on! If you are happy where you are at in your walk and life in Jesus, more power to you! I suggest you leave those of us who are also happy and content in our walk with Him, alone.
You have become obsessed with attacking me, and that is leading you into a sinful practice that shows an ugly side of you, and not the side of you that God would want you to show. I pray you stop with the harassment, and get back to what you do best, and that is loving Jesus and others, and growing in the love and tolerance. You will find yourself a much happier person! Shalom! :wavey:
You make the same satanic claims that every false teacher use and that is that you are being judged and attacked. You cannot stand the truth. You promote a false teaching in tongues based on scripture. There is no such thing as a prayer language or a language that is not understandable by the believer using it. You have both, which means you are making false claims. If what you are promoting was of God you would do as asked and post a short audio so it can be tested, but you shrink back from the light. You make claims of being gifted by God and it is so holy that it cannot be used openly unless it is defiled. Such is not of God. God has not given you some private language for your own personal gratification. So any judgment is your own because of your own false teaching and rejecting of scripture and making claims that are not of God. You and Benny Hinn are in the same camp.
The nature of tongues is for the propogation of the gospel and nothing more. The garbage that goes on in churches today is nothing more than a contrived mess of man made hocus pocus.
The word for "tongues" is "language," real and known, not ecstatic.
"How hear we every man in our own language wherein we were born."
"Charismatic tongues" or modern day tongues, is a phenomena when one allows the sub-conscious to by-pass the conscious mind resulting in incoherent babbling. This is of the flesh, not of God.
Look at what the Bible says:
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are honorable, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there is any virtue, and if there is any praise, think about these things.
1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Joshua 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
There are many more such commands. They tell us to: think, study, pay attention, meditate, etc. We are always to be using our mind. With our minds we serve Christ.
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--Note the difference:
1. When I am using my mind I am able to serve the Lord.
2. But through the flesh, I am in bondage to sin.
The modern day speaking in tongues (whether in public or in "prayer") is in the flesh. It bypasses the mind. The mind cannot understand what is coming out of the subconscious. It is intelligible. This is wrong.
God demands of us that we always be under the control of our minds. Without that control we cannot serve the Lord.
2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
When speaking in "tongues" is every thought brought into captivity to the obedience of Christ?
How would you know if you can't understand what is being said??
"How hear we every man in our own language wherein we were born."
"Charismatic tongues" or modern day tongues, is a phenomena when one allows the sub-conscious to by-pass the conscious mind resulting in incoherent babbling. This is of the flesh, not of God.
Look at what the Bible says:
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are honorable, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there is any virtue, and if there is any praise, think about these things.
1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Joshua 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
There are many more such commands. They tell us to: think, study, pay attention, meditate, etc. We are always to be using our mind. With our minds we serve Christ.
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--Note the difference:
1. When I am using my mind I am able to serve the Lord.
2. But through the flesh, I am in bondage to sin.
The modern day speaking in tongues (whether in public or in "prayer") is in the flesh. It bypasses the mind. The mind cannot understand what is coming out of the subconscious. It is intelligible. This is wrong.
God demands of us that we always be under the control of our minds. Without that control we cannot serve the Lord.
2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
When speaking in "tongues" is every thought brought into captivity to the obedience of Christ?
How would you know if you can't understand what is being said??
RD,there are many things about your theology that I disagree with --but when you said "trivial things like doctrines" -- you have gone against biblical standards.
We are to contend for the faith once for all entrusted to God's holy people. (Jude 3).
We are to nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching [doctrine] we have followed. [1Timothy 4:6]
Paul told Timothy to devote himself to the public reading of Scripture,to preaching and to teaching [doctrine].[1 Timothy 4:13]
Paul told Timothy to watch his life and doctrine. [1 Timothy 4:16]
If doctrine is as unimportant as you think then false teaching is allowed and just as legitimate as true,biblical doctrine.
Where do you come out on 2Timothy 3:16?
We are to contend for the faith once for all entrusted to God's holy people. (Jude 3).
We are to nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching [doctrine] we have followed. [1Timothy 4:6]
Paul told Timothy to devote himself to the public reading of Scripture,to preaching and to teaching [doctrine].[1 Timothy 4:13]
Paul told Timothy to watch his life and doctrine. [1 Timothy 4:16]
If doctrine is as unimportant as you think then false teaching is allowed and just as legitimate as true,biblical doctrine.
Where do you come out on 2Timothy 3:16?
That is your right to believe!
However, I still say that doctrines are man made and carry little weight when it comes to the Word. Dooctrines have always been used to control the followers of the body that writes and applies those doctrines to their own organization!
The Catholics have the oldest doctrines known to mankind, since the development of the NT church! And do you agree with their doctrines? No, you have a completely different set of doctrines to follow!
I am not against doctrines, just against the hypocracy of those who hold their doctrines up as being the only truths people should follow, while others with doctriens, are in the calss of false teachers.
You can quote scripture to support your point, but the truth is Jesus made no doctrines, or at least doctrines that are followed 100% by any one church today! Why are there so many different churches? Because one group decided they didn't like the doctrines of the church they were in so they wrote their own doctriens to fit how they saw believers should live!
Doctrines have a purpose, but not to the point that they limit or keep others from living both inside and outside the box!''Thanks for you comments, they are reasonable, just not my cup of tea! In what way do the doctrines of the Freewill Baptist differ from the SBC, or the IFB, or the ABC. Do those that adhere to armenian theology and doctrines in any way in concert with those who hold to Calvin? You have a completely different set of doctriens to govern each baptist subgroup, and the truth is none are in harmony with the other, so, yes I tend to think that those who hold to a set of die hard doctrines, are in fact fooing themselves, and causing division with the body.
If this were not true, that why is the Baptist name not all linked as one, nondivisive church? Why are there so many branches and off shoots? It is because doctrineal stances have created division among the fellowship. So brother, when the Baptist organization as a whole can lay down their doctrinal differences and be one collectively, then I will stop saying that doctrines in general are trivial!
And this just doesn't apply to Baptist. This goes for Lutherans. There are at least five different branches of utherans, and with the gay marriage issue, there will undoubtably be more!
As to where I come out on 2 Timothy 3:16, Ummm, I think 2 Timothy 3:17, and forward from there!
However, I still say that doctrines are man made and carry little weight when it comes to the Word. Dooctrines have always been used to control the followers of the body that writes and applies those doctrines to their own organization!
The Catholics have the oldest doctrines known to mankind, since the development of the NT church! And do you agree with their doctrines? No, you have a completely different set of doctrines to follow!
I am not against doctrines, just against the hypocracy of those who hold their doctrines up as being the only truths people should follow, while others with doctriens, are in the calss of false teachers.
You can quote scripture to support your point, but the truth is Jesus made no doctrines, or at least doctrines that are followed 100% by any one church today! Why are there so many different churches? Because one group decided they didn't like the doctrines of the church they were in so they wrote their own doctriens to fit how they saw believers should live!
Doctrines have a purpose, but not to the point that they limit or keep others from living both inside and outside the box!''Thanks for you comments, they are reasonable, just not my cup of tea! In what way do the doctrines of the Freewill Baptist differ from the SBC, or the IFB, or the ABC. Do those that adhere to armenian theology and doctrines in any way in concert with those who hold to Calvin? You have a completely different set of doctriens to govern each baptist subgroup, and the truth is none are in harmony with the other, so, yes I tend to think that those who hold to a set of die hard doctrines, are in fact fooing themselves, and causing division with the body.
If this were not true, that why is the Baptist name not all linked as one, nondivisive church? Why are there so many branches and off shoots? It is because doctrineal stances have created division among the fellowship. So brother, when the Baptist organization as a whole can lay down their doctrinal differences and be one collectively, then I will stop saying that doctrines in general are trivial!
And this just doesn't apply to Baptist. This goes for Lutherans. There are at least five different branches of utherans, and with the gay marriage issue, there will undoubtably be more!
As to where I come out on 2 Timothy 3:16, Ummm, I think 2 Timothy 3:17, and forward from there!
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Same old blahs....
To be honest with you sister....I've been more than gracious toward you. And I've tried to extend spiritual courteousness to you in light of all the names you have illuded to or reverted, especially in the past few posts.
Let me remind you that with the comments I highlighted above, you have broken in one way or another the following Forum rules:
3. Show grace to the other posters. When someone disagrees with you, discuss it; but be slow to offend, and eager to get into the Word and find the answers. Remember, when discussing passionate issues, it is easy to go too far and offend. Further, if we are "earnestly contending for the faith" it would be unrealistic not to expect at times to be misunderstood or even ridiculed. But please note that your words can sometimes be harsh if used in the wrong way. The anger of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
4. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. ....We encourage personal problems with other members be resolved privately via email or personal messaging.
I've always believed that when a person reverts to name calling and comparing someone to someone or something else, that is a sure sign they are loosing grip of the topic!
Let me also remind you that the Jewish leadership did something comparable to you when you said I make Satanic claims:
John 8:48-50, "The Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?" Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. "But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.…"
Luke 4:34-36, ""Let us alone! What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are-- the Holy One of God!" But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet and come out of him!" And when the demon had thrown him down in the midst of the people, he came out of him without doing him any harm. And amazement came upon them all, and they began talking with one another saying, "What is this message? For with authority and power He commands the unclean spirits and they come out.…"
As I said in several other comments to you, be careful where you let your lips tred, what comes out of your mouth will surely be used to judge you in the end!
I meant it when I said I love you, and I forgive you for being you, because you can't help what you believe...still, you can help using your mouth to draw ugly, ungodly comparisions to me and Satan and Benny Hinn....and for that you should be ashamed! If I were in the Beeny Hinn camp, I could simply blow on the computer keyboard and cause you to come under the spirit and fall on your face! Be thankful I don't believe in that stuff.
If you want to call me names and draw unfair comparisons, please PM me! But try to keep from being so ungracious on line!
To be honest with you sister....I've been more than gracious toward you. And I've tried to extend spiritual courteousness to you in light of all the names you have illuded to or reverted, especially in the past few posts.
Let me remind you that with the comments I highlighted above, you have broken in one way or another the following Forum rules:
3. Show grace to the other posters. When someone disagrees with you, discuss it; but be slow to offend, and eager to get into the Word and find the answers. Remember, when discussing passionate issues, it is easy to go too far and offend. Further, if we are "earnestly contending for the faith" it would be unrealistic not to expect at times to be misunderstood or even ridiculed. But please note that your words can sometimes be harsh if used in the wrong way. The anger of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
4. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. ....We encourage personal problems with other members be resolved privately via email or personal messaging.
I've always believed that when a person reverts to name calling and comparing someone to someone or something else, that is a sure sign they are loosing grip of the topic!
Let me also remind you that the Jewish leadership did something comparable to you when you said I make Satanic claims:
John 8:48-50, "The Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?" Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. "But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.…"
Luke 4:34-36, ""Let us alone! What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are-- the Holy One of God!" But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet and come out of him!" And when the demon had thrown him down in the midst of the people, he came out of him without doing him any harm. And amazement came upon them all, and they began talking with one another saying, "What is this message? For with authority and power He commands the unclean spirits and they come out.…"
As I said in several other comments to you, be careful where you let your lips tred, what comes out of your mouth will surely be used to judge you in the end!
I meant it when I said I love you, and I forgive you for being you, because you can't help what you believe...still, you can help using your mouth to draw ugly, ungodly comparisions to me and Satan and Benny Hinn....and for that you should be ashamed! If I were in the Beeny Hinn camp, I could simply blow on the computer keyboard and cause you to come under the spirit and fall on your face! Be thankful I don't believe in that stuff.
If you want to call me names and draw unfair comparisons, please PM me! But try to keep from being so ungracious on line!
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A Parting Note on this Topic! <3
:type: I realize that this post has kicked up a lot of disagreements, and that is okay, because this is a debate forum [that is what youa'' tell me all the time]. Still, you've had your say, I've had mine, and this post is absolutely the last one I will make on this topic...
First of all, let me apologize if in any way this post offended you. It was only to see if anyone individual or their church had come to accept the gift of tongues...
Secondly, I have some strong opinions, and so do you, But let's leave it as said and done and move on!
Third, I am not going to change my mind any more than you are going to change your minds. Of course, I must add that I am a work in progress, God is the potter, and I am merely a clump of clay, and I do not know what tomorrow will bring, so I can never say that I will always hold to the beliefs I currently hold to any more than you folks should profess, because God is and will always be working at refining our faith and our thought processes through this life!
None of us are finished growing, and for sure God is not finished growing us!
Fourth, regardless of how strongly you feel about the things I shared; I do not judge you any differently, and I hope you do the same with me! After all, we are all cut from the same thread, so to speak, and He is still the author of our life, and through His blood, we are all one, even with different holdings, theologically speaking!
It would be ashame and a terrible loss for any of us to allow something as silly as speaking in tongues, believing in freewill vs predestination, or once saved always saved, to separate us, as we are all sojouners on the same path, and it is not up to one group to knock another off that path. After all, Jesus spoke words in Matthew 7:1-3 (KJV) that I try hard to ive by, and I hope you do too! In closing let me remind you of those words, and that they should be our guide in this lifetime if we are going to escape judgement in eternity.
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
As I said in many other OP's, heaven would be a very, VERY dull place if it consisted of only one denomination. I believe that all this denomination stuff may serve a purpose to some of you, but the truth is, Jesus said we must be born-again, and those who are born-again will be there, regardless of the errors and mistakes made in their earthly doctrinals stands.
Doctrines will not keep anyone who is born-again of faith, from entering heaven. However, doctrines will be the one thing that is judged in heaven. IMHO! So keep that in mind.
I have never advocated to anyone on this board that you must have tongues to please God, be used of God, and to serve Him. To me, tongues is trivial, and it just happens to be my personal trivia. It has never stopped me from crossing over denominational lines, and I pray that what you hold to don't keep you from advancing the hand of fellowship over the lines and beyond the walls of denominationalism!
Shalom, and know I love you all, even those that disagree with me! Disagreement is excepted in my camp. Judgement isn't! :thumbs:
:type: I realize that this post has kicked up a lot of disagreements, and that is okay, because this is a debate forum [that is what youa'' tell me all the time]. Still, you've had your say, I've had mine, and this post is absolutely the last one I will make on this topic...
First of all, let me apologize if in any way this post offended you. It was only to see if anyone individual or their church had come to accept the gift of tongues...
Secondly, I have some strong opinions, and so do you, But let's leave it as said and done and move on!
Third, I am not going to change my mind any more than you are going to change your minds. Of course, I must add that I am a work in progress, God is the potter, and I am merely a clump of clay, and I do not know what tomorrow will bring, so I can never say that I will always hold to the beliefs I currently hold to any more than you folks should profess, because God is and will always be working at refining our faith and our thought processes through this life!
None of us are finished growing, and for sure God is not finished growing us!
Fourth, regardless of how strongly you feel about the things I shared; I do not judge you any differently, and I hope you do the same with me! After all, we are all cut from the same thread, so to speak, and He is still the author of our life, and through His blood, we are all one, even with different holdings, theologically speaking!
It would be ashame and a terrible loss for any of us to allow something as silly as speaking in tongues, believing in freewill vs predestination, or once saved always saved, to separate us, as we are all sojouners on the same path, and it is not up to one group to knock another off that path. After all, Jesus spoke words in Matthew 7:1-3 (KJV) that I try hard to ive by, and I hope you do too! In closing let me remind you of those words, and that they should be our guide in this lifetime if we are going to escape judgement in eternity.
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
As I said in many other OP's, heaven would be a very, VERY dull place if it consisted of only one denomination. I believe that all this denomination stuff may serve a purpose to some of you, but the truth is, Jesus said we must be born-again, and those who are born-again will be there, regardless of the errors and mistakes made in their earthly doctrinals stands.
Doctrines will not keep anyone who is born-again of faith, from entering heaven. However, doctrines will be the one thing that is judged in heaven. IMHO! So keep that in mind.
I have never advocated to anyone on this board that you must have tongues to please God, be used of God, and to serve Him. To me, tongues is trivial, and it just happens to be my personal trivia. It has never stopped me from crossing over denominational lines, and I pray that what you hold to don't keep you from advancing the hand of fellowship over the lines and beyond the walls of denominationalism!
Shalom, and know I love you all, even those that disagree with me! Disagreement is excepted in my camp. Judgement isn't! :thumbs:
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