Spirit & Soul

It is a temporal perishing. The saving or the losing of the soul has to do with whether or not we will rule and reign with Christ in His coming kingdom, which is 1,000 years in length.

If we are disobedient and unfaithful in this life then we will not be trusted to rule and reign with the King of kings and the Lord of lords in the coming age.

We are to learn to die to our agenda now so that we will be prepared to act on the behalf of the Lord in the coming age as his kings and lords.

I have some great resource material if you would like to dig deeper into the Scriptural foundation of this Truth. Just PM me and I'll send it to you.

Our spirit has been regenerated. I'm not sure our spirit is sealed with the Holy Spirit though. Most of Christendom says we are sealed with the Spirit and turn to Ephesians as the "proof" text.

However Ephesians is not written to all believers, but is written to believers that are being obedient, faithful and are overcoming the flesh, the world and Satan. So I don't think we can draw a conclusion that we are all sealed with the Spirit, especially if we are speaking of our souls.

Now I do believe the Spirit indwells all believers regardless of whether they are obedient or not, but I think sealing goes beyond indwelling. What do you think?

In my recent studies (past 12 months) it seems it is more accurate to say that our spirit is saved (past) our soul is currently being saved (present sanctification - if we are walking in the Spirit and crucifying the flesh) and our soul and bodies will be saved in the future.

However the saving of the soul is based on the cross. Everything goes through the cross. The spirit is saved based on death and shed blood. However the soul is saved based on blood and water ie the priest washing constantly before entering the Holy of Holies.

Another example would be of Peter at the footwashing ceremony. Christ said if I don't wash you you will have no part "with" me. Meaning that if Peter didn't allow Christ to wash him (the periodic washing the priests went through) that he would have no part with Christ in His coming kingdom.

Again I have some great resource material if you are interested in studying through it. I will tell you the Bible has never been more clear and make so much sense from cover to cover since discovering these Truths. And I have never been more excited to study Scripture than I have over the last 12 months.

Hope that helps clarify a little of where I am coming from. There really isn't enough time and space to do your questions justice in this format.

 

jump,

I think you missed my most important question ~

I can leave the rest of you construct alone as I understand what you mean, even if I don't think it is helpful for Christians to think of them that way. :BangHead:
I agree that most everyone does.

skypair

 

Ivey, jump,

Just a few notes to Ivey regarding your response, jump.

I like to look to Rom 5:10 -- "...we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." This really makes it clear. Watch.

We are reconciled/saved to God ETERNALLY in our souls (jump's "spirit") by Jesus death ---

We are saved DAILY in our spirits (jump's soul) by living Christ's life on earth (death to self). Do you like that?

Saved from "hell in the hereafter" by His death -- saved from spiritual "hell on earth" by His life!

skypair

 

It pleases me that this is a topic that concerns you, as it is certainly one that has been neglected in the church today. As to your conclusions...

Skypair...I believe you have done your homework and come to the right conclusions.

J.Jump...I think you are bound to your conclusion because you have determined that the spirit is the quikened, and only the spirit is quikened.

I would agree that the spirit is quikened st the moment of salvation, however, the scripture is clear that we are a new "creature" in Christ.

We are no longer the old creature (who we really were) that was created in Adam. We are a new creature (who we really are) that has been created in Christ.

The Bible goes on to say that we are, in this new person, seated positionally in heaven in Christ. That part of you that is in Christ is Perfect/Justified/Sinless. This is the NT doctrine of "you in Christ/Christ in you."

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

How can a part of our being (Tripartite) be positionally in Christ?... the operation of God called spiritual circumcision...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

The new birth brings about a soul that is a new creature in Christ (that does not sin) and a spirit that is awakened to the things of God once again.

Our spirit cannot be that part of us that is in Christ or that is a completely changed new creature because it is still said to have sin...

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Moreover, it is our spirit and our body that is still awaiting the redemption...

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

...and that becaused they have not been completely cleansed, but need a daily renewal...a daily "putting on of the new man."

That leaves our soul alone (the new creature) that has been separated (set apart unto God) from the spirit and the flesh and sealed of by the Holy Spirit of God.

I hope this helps...keep on studying.

Max

 

Max,

Thanks for the "backup." I was needing that.

Don't suppose you'd like to engage on the issue (re: 1John 3:8) whether God was One Being in eternity past (Prov 8:22-25) just as we are now and will be one being in eternity future (Rev 22:4) so that God might at last be SEEN (so far, "no one hath seen God at any time") face to face? See, I think that when everything is perfect, then He will again be One (1Cor 15:28 -- " And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.") That (New Earth), incidentally, will be His "kingdom come ... will be done on earth..."

Your 1John 3:8 provides the motive for there being 3 Persons in One -- because Satan sinned. We were, therefore, created in God's/"Our own" image (singular), right?

Well, that's another thread, another place. Good show on the "new creation" aspect being the soul.

skypair

 

I would be happy to discuss this topic if it is ok with the moderators that we do it here. If not you can start a new thread. I will post when I can.

Max

 

If you consider a person's conscience to be that mechanism that can distinguish between what the world consider's to be right and wrong then I would have to say that is contained in a person's soul. It doesn't have the capability to know whether or not something is "truly" Godly or not.

And the reason I say that it is contained within the soul is that a person can go through their whole life and be a moral person and yet eternal (spiritually) unsaved, so we know that part of a person is not dead, so it can not be connected to the spirit, because until the moment someone believes their spirit is dead.

I would agree that we are saved from eternal damnation by His death (and shed blood, but that is usually implied by His death), but I don't think that His life just saves us from spiritual "hell on earth."

I think it has a lot more to do that just that, although I think that could be one aspect of it.

 

jump,

In order to respond, I guess I'm going to have to take your view at the outset -- that the soul is the will and emotions and, now, the conscience whereas the spirit is the seat of knowledge (per page 1 of this thread).

See, to me, it is our knowledge, emotions, and will (my term "spirit") that are constantly changing day-by-day (being sanctified).

It is our conscience where we SENSE that we are right with God for eternity -- that we comprehend right from wrong and have accepted God's definitions thereof, trust that our sins forgiven, that we are "stayed upon Jehovah"/reconciled, etc.

But your definitions, though classic, would have knowedge/spirit alone as the basis for eternal salvation and will, emotions, and conscience being daily changed.

This is problematic for me. Suppose that our knowledge is flawed -- we're Muslim and "know" that we are saved despite our changeable conscience. Does knowledge alone save? Does your mind/"seat of knowledge" ever fool you into THINKING you are lost? Yet this is the "seat" where you should sense eternal salvation, isn't it?

What I maintain is "fixed," "stayed," etc. is my conscience. I will ALWAYS be aware of God. I will NEVER again (as when I was lost) take my own word or anything I "know" above what God has said or commanded.

To lump conscience together with will and emotions right away tells me that I can't know (in my "spirit" - your def.) whether I am saved nor has God established such a promise to me. I mean, I still often will to do wrong, don't you? My emotions "follow" my "good" days and "bad" days -- my sufferings or blessings -- don't yours?

I am 100% certain that YOUR assurance of salvation is NOT as changeable as your will and emotions. If you simply "flip" conscience and knowledge in your paradigm, I think you will realize the truth of what I am saying. Your saved soul NEVER changes. It is the arbiter of your whole Christian life! Your mind, emotions and will "commune directly with your flesh and change constantly but are always trying (saved again) to stay in line with what God has established -- His throne -- in your conscience.

Well, I'll let you digest that and maybe think on the "death of Christ - life of Christ" issue from this "revamped" perspective.

skypair

 

The problem is that the Bible tells us that our souls are not saved. They can be saved, but they aren't right now. It is our wills that must be constantly changing. We must be dying to our will moment-by-moment and accepting His will moment-by-moment.

Our souls are not dead, but they are in darkness and must be changed from darkness to light.

As far as knowledge goes it makes perfect sense that it would be tied to our spirit, becuase we have to "know" Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God that died and shed His blood on our behalf a sinner. If we know that then we can believe that. If we don't know that then we can't believe what we don't know.

And our eternal security is knowing what God has said about eternal (spiritual) salvation and believing what He said. He said believe and you will be saved. So once we believe we are saved.

There are a number of circumstances that leads one to doubt their salvation, but that's probably for a different thread .

Bottom line is we have to go with what the Bible says, and It says that our spirits are dead and in need of saving, which is done by believing on the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, on our behalf as sinners. When that happens our spirit is made alive so that we can start to understand God and what He has revealed to us in His Word.

At that point our spirit and soul are separated from one another (Hebrews 4:12) because light and darkness have no fellowship one with another. From that point on there is, or should be, a battle between the light and the darkness.

From that point forward it is our souls that can be in the process of being saved by mixing our faith with works (James specifically, but throughout the NT). And I Peter tells us that it is at the end that our souls will be saved.

There's a lot more Scriptural detail than what I have presented here and I would be more than happy to send you some study material if you are interested in looking into the matter in more detail.

 

Can you please post scripture for your conclusions. I attempted to enter this discussion with sound biblical support for my conclusions (and posted some scripture) but you have not yet responded.

Please show from Scripture...

1. Where the soul is still in darkness after you are "spiritually saved" or have been given the gift of "eternal salvation."

2. How the spirit (your view) that is the "new creature" can continue to sin. 2 Cor. 7:1

3. How the spirit is the only part of man that is regenerated at the new birth.

It is my opinion that you have a distorted view of the definition of "death."

Death is separation according to the Biblical definition...

Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.

So, when you talk of the spirit being dead, it is not incapable of functioning, it is only incapable of communicating with God. Unsaved man operates in the spirit world all of the time.

More latter...

Max

 

I thought I had posted this in this thread, but if not Hebrews 4:12 tells us that the soul and spirit are separated. And this is in line with picture that we are given in Genesis 1 where light and darkness are separated.

It starts with a correct understanding that Genesis 1 is not the complete story of "creation" as much is it is restoration of a ruined creation. Much more could be said, but that's for another time and thread probably.

I'm not sure I can answer this question, because I'm still fuzzy on what you are trying to say exactly.

However I can say that I think a lot of folks teach more about the "new creature or new creation" that what it really is. We are a new creation or new creature in that when we are saved we are no longer a Jew or Gentile, we are just part of the one new man in Christ. The reason for the Jews is that the offer of the kingdom has been taken away from the nation and they are no longer able to even entertain whether they want to be a part of it or not. And for the Gentiles we can not be a Gentile and be part of the kingdom, because it is said that the Gentiles have no God and that all earthly and spiritual blessings will flow through Abraham and we must be of the seed of Abraham. Again more could be said here as well. This is just a brief mention.

Here you are asking me a question that I can't answer. Salvation is of the Lord. I don't know exactly why He did things the way He did, but I must accept them still. The reason that salvation starts with the spirit is because the spirit is dead and must be made alive for someone to understand the Word of God, because it is Spiritually discerned.

It is dead to the extent that one is incapable of acting in a way that is pleasing to the Lord in the spiritual realm. That's why we have to rely on the finished works of Jesus, the Lamb of God, for salvation, because we are incapable of acting in a pleasing way in that area, and we are incapable of understanding God as well.

 

jump,

Mornin' Well, I been reading your last couple of posts and there is much truth in there but I think the framework on which is hangs is why you have questions you "can't answer."

My first point would be that it's true that the spirit is made alive in Christ -- regenerated by the Holy Spirit who indwells it. See, if the human spirit is the "mind, emotions, and will" of a man, then where would the mind, emotions, and will of Christ come to reside?

Second, the soul continues in darkness? And does not commune with the spirit? Then what sense does this verse make: "What shall it profit a man if he gain the world but lose his soul?" To say that the soul of a saved person is still lost in darkness would seem to give no hope of salvation, wouldn't it? You've got the right thoughts -- just the wrong applications.

The saved spirit (you call soul) DOES still operate in the sinful world communing with the soul above and the flesh beneath. Here is what is meant by "seated in heavenly places in Christ" -- our mind, emotions, and will are, "in the Spirit," as Christ is right now. We sit above the world/flesh in our spirits But the soul is that throne above our spirit (mind, emotions, and will)! (Whew -- sorry but there's no other way than to revert back to my contruct. I hope you can think it through.)

One point I would like to answer regarding the "new creature." Do you know that we are a "new creature" soul, spirit and body in Christ? Yeah! 1Cor 15:29-40 tells us that that our whole being is "planted"/dead with Christ and "God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him!" That body is called a body (soul and spirit) of "terrestrial glory!" That is, it lives in the earth -- it's still "flesh and blood" -- it still is imperfect -- but it has the "glory" that Christ had when He walked the earth (we being His "body" to our generation). One day we will receive our body of "celestial glory" so that we can live in heaven with God. So you see, the "new creature"/"new creation" is much more than just the new spirit!

skypair

 

Not at all. The Bible tells us there is a hope of salvation. Practically the entire NT and great portions of the OT are talking about the saving of the soul. There is great hope that our souls can be saved. But it also tells us that there is a possibility that our souls can be lost as well.

You even stated one of the verses . . . what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and yet lose his soul. The answer is there is not profit. Why would we want to gain all that this world has to offer and yet lose our souls. It doesn't make much sense, but it still happens. And it is far more prevelant than having the soul saved unfortunately for broad is the way that leads to destruction, but narrow is the way that leads to life.

This is confusing. You say the save spirit that I call the soul doesn't make sense. The soul is not saved, so I would not equate the soul with anything that is saved. Our souls should be in the process of being saved day by day and moment by moment, but its not a guarantee that they will be.

Well you are taking a verse from Ephesians and trying to make it apply to all Christians, when the book is not written to all Christians. Ephesians is written to faithful, obedient, overcoming Christians.

Our mind, emotions and will are not "in the Spirit" as you suggest or we would not be told to have our mind renewed. You wouldn't have saved folks battling depression and contemplating suicide.

There is enough evidence that this isn't true that one doesn't even have to go to Scripture to disprove this statement. So are you saying you are now living in your new glorified body? Again we are a new creature in that we are neither Jew nor Greek. We are neither male nor female. We are a part of the one new man in Christ. We still have our old fleshly bodies. We still have our old sin nature, and we still have those desires for wrong doing that are battling the desires to do the right thing.

For some reason Christendom has tried to cram more into the message of the new creation than belongs there.

Christ did not have His glory when He walked the earth. If He had then people wouldn't have been able to look at Him. Paul makes that quite evident in that he was blinded for three days.

We do not contain any glory right now. The glory does not surround the sinful flesh.

Skypair here is more church tradition that doesn't have any Scriptural root to it. There is nothing in Scripture that says we are going to live in heaven with God. And quite the opposite is actually what Scripture tells us. Revelation tells us that God leaves heaven and will dwell on the new earth amongst His people. Now I guess you could call that heaven, but it sure does muddy the waters. It would be best to just call it what Scripture calls it.

Brother what you are doing is espousing a lot of church tradition, and I would encourage you to take a close look at it, because a lot of it just doesn't withstand the test of Scripture. There are a great many reasons for that, but that's for another day and time

 

Traditionally, the church has interpreted the definition of the soul as "the mind, will, and emotions." This comes from a flawed view however. It comes from a view that does not make a distinction between the soul and spirit. It was and still is a commonly held view with many, however it was more prevelant in the past. The view has also left the confusion that exists today by stating that the soul is "the mind, will, and emotions."

Let me demonstrate how this is flawed by showing the exact opposite to be true from scripture...that is, the "spirit" is actualy equated with "the mind, will, and emotions."

1. MIND

The spirit of man = the mind of man
The Spirit of God = the mind of Christ

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The spirit is again linked to the mind in...

Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


2. WILL

The spirit is clearly linked to the will...

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

3. EMOTIONS

The spirit is seemingly linked to the emotions...

Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.

Joh 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.

Act 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.

2Co 2:13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


I trust this will help to correct some tradition and some confusion over the issue at hand.

Max

 

Max thanks for your posts, but they are very difficult to read and that is why I haven't responded to you much. So let's take this back a step so that I can get a handle on where you are coming from.

Personally I don't like to get into these disucssions, becuase already I think too much has been made on what part of the man does what and we are getting away from Scripture and getting into human definitions, which can be dangerous.

So with that being said please lay out for me what you believe when it comes to the soul, spirit and body and how that relates to salvation. How and why is each part saved.

Then we should be able to proceed. I look forward to further discussion with you.

PS - And when I was talking about Skypair reguritating church tradition I wasn't necessarily talking about his definitions, but just some of the beliefs that he has put forth. Of course all of us hold on to certain church traditions, but we must hold on to the ones that are correct and drop the ones that are incorrect. Again I'm looking forward to more discussion.

 

Jjump,

Fair enough. I am not sure what was confusing about my last post (#35).
Please let me know what you were confused about. I thought it was a clear definition, using Scripture, of the spirit(not the soul) being the "mind, will, and emotions."

Consider that post (#35) to be my definition of the "spirit" of man.

I should also point out that your idea that the "spirit" is what is presently saved (possesses spiritual salvation) is seemingly flawed according to...

1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Here it is clear that the spirit is still awaiting full salvation, and this is in harmony with the bible's teaching the the "body and spirit" are still awaiting the redemption. That is they (body and spirit) have been "bought with a price" but not yet redeemed. Consider the following...

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Let us proceed from here. If you need further clarification please let me know. This is a very important subject that we are discussing, and one that I have been studying for a long time. I believe it is necessary that we get all of our terms defined correctly in order to understand the doctrine soteriology. We should work on our "scriptural" definitions first.

I hope this helps.

Max

 

Unfortunately not at all.

I just wanted you to lay out in simple terms what, when and how we are saved. Anyone can combine various Scriptures as you have done and create their own reality, but that doesn't make it so. I am willing to continue discussion, but you are going to have to lay out in much more clear terms what it is that you believe before we are going to be able to go forward.

Spirit - What happens to the spirit at the point of salvation. How is the spirit saved. When is the spirit saved and for what purpose is the spirit saved. Is the salvation of the spirit a process or is it a one-time event?

Soul - What happens to the soul at the point of salvation. How is the soul saved. When is the soul saved and for what purpose is the soul saved. IS the salvation of the soul a process or is it a one-time event?

Body - What happens to the body at the point of salvation. How is the body saved. When is the body saved and for what purpose is the body saved. IS the salvation of the body a process or is it a one-time event?

Let's start here and see if we can move forward.

 

I'm sorry brother but I don't know how much more clear I can be. Post #35 was a clear and Scripturally supported definition of the "spirit" of a man. That is, the "mind, will, and emotions."

There is also clear evidence, as posted in my last post that the "spirit" is not fully saved yet. The "spirit" is quickened at the point of the new birth so that it is once again capable of understanding the things of God, and yeilding to the influences of the Holy Spirit(1 Cor. 2). There is a continual washing away (by the word of God) of the sins of the spirit (2 Cor. 7). Our mind and our will are shaped or renewed daily(Eph. 4) as we yield to the influence of the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8). This is the process of daily sanctification.

As to the "body," it is not yet saved. One day it will be...when it is made in incorruption and immortality (1 Cor. 15). It is presently still ruled by death (Rom. 7). It is to be brought under subjection daily, so as not to yield to the lust or motions of sin (Rom. 7) and the lust of the flesh (1 John 2). The body awaits salvation and the ultimate glorification when we "shall be like him" (1 John 3).

As to the "soul" it is the new man/new creature created in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5, Eph. 2 & 4, Col. 3). The soul (creature/creation) is what man became when God created Adam (Gen. 1) and the soul (new creature) is what man now becomes in Christ. The soul is positionally in Christ, seated together in heavenly places (Eph. 2). The soul/new man is created in "righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4) and is therefore sinless (1 John 3). This is posible by the operation of God called spiritual circumcision (Col. 2) that separates the soul from the spirit and body (Heb. 4) freeing the soul from the bondage of fleshly and spiritual sins.

Conclusion:

The soul is saved by believing.

The spirit is being saved by yeilding to the Holy Spirit.

The body will be saved at the redemption of the purchased possession.

Once again, I hope this helps!

Max

 

While you didn't really answer my questions let's deal with your "conclusions."

The soul is not what has been saved, because it is not what was in need of being saved first. Adam and Eve died spiritually (although they also died physically later), and it is spiritual death that needs to be remedied to begin with.

We can not understand Scripture, outside of salvation by grace through faith apart from works, until our spirit is made alive. That is what happens first. Then and only then can our soul be saved, because then and only then can we understand what it means to yield to the Holy Spirit.

There is no real Scriptural backing for the first two conclusions that you have drawn. It is our spirit that has passed out of darkness into the light and from death unto life, because it is the only thing that was dead.

What you are saying with your conclusions is that it is our soul that communicates with God, but that's not what Scripture says at all.

It is our spirit that is saved by believe/faith in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, on our behalf a sinner.

It is our soul that is in the process of being saved (or should be in the process of being saved), according to Hebrews 10, James 1 and I Peter 1. The soul is saved by a mixture of faith and works according to the entirety of the NT.

So bottom line your conclusions defy all Scriptural logic to what salvation is and what is accomplished in salvation, IMO.