Spirit & Soul

[PASTOR MHG]

What about before Abraham? Are you saying there were no earthly or spiritual blessings before Abraham? You have just eliminated every Gentile who found favor with God (Able, Noah, Enoch, etc.) because they are not Abrahams seed.

I will address your scriptures regarding the soul in a later thread.

Please address the issue of "not commiting sin" from the scripture...

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

What part of my being does not commit sin?

It is clearly not my body.
It is clearly not my spirit.

I still think you need to reevaluate your definition of "spirit" form the scripture. Get the solid definition as has been pointed out, and then develop your doctrine. It certainly seems that you have a preconcieved idea about the spirit and soul and you have developed a system to fit.

Are you unwilling to address the scriptures I posted about the definition of the spirit?

Please don't take offense to this question... I just dont think we will make any progress if you will not be willing to consider these scriptures. Our discussion will be a waste of time in the future.

Thanks,

Max

 

[J. Jump]

Please address the issue of "not commiting sin" from the scripture...

Again I'm the only one that has to address questions. Why is that?

I still think you need to reevaluate your definition of "spirit" form the scripture.

I still think your definitions violate Scripture. Again I can take a Scripture from here and there and prove just about any point that I want to, that doesn't make it true.

I have said that while the spirit may have a will in that it desires to do good, that doesn't make the spirit the seat of "the" will as you suggest. The idea that the spirit is the seat of the emotions is in no way proven by the Scriptures you listed. All of the Scriptures you listed if I remember correctly showed the spirit in action not feeling something.

Now again why can't you answer any of my questions?

As far as I John is concerned I am going to look into that.

 

[PASTOR MHG]

Here we go with one of your "proof texts" about the soul...

1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
--To possess faith/trust -- that is in Christ the odject of the faith -- this is something I have or possess, and because of this possession I can rejoice in spirit (or express the joy of being full of glory/glorified)...

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
--This is the explanation of how I received what I have... literally it is "obtaining the result of my faith" which is the salvation of my soul...

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace thatshouldcome unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
-- This is the job I now have...gaurding my spirit/mind (biblical definition, by the way) yielding to the Holy Spirit, being cleansed and renewed daily by the washing of the word of God.

1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, seethatye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
--Once again, in harmony with the text the making pure/perfecting of my soul was done in the past/at the new
birth. This was done by "obeying the truth" (that is "being obedient to the requirements of the truth") to which the requirement even in context and in harmony with the whole of scripture, is "believing."

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.

Thank you for reminding me of this scripture which supports my argument perfectly.

Max

 

[J. Jump]

Thank you for reminding me of this scripture which supports my argument perfectly.

So you believe in a works based salvation then? Because the verse says they purified their souls not that it was done to them. Again it doesn't prove your point in the slightest. Why didn't you address the other two?

And in verse 9 it is talking about saved people receiving in the present, not something done in the past. Again nothing here proves your point.

 

[PASTOR MHG]

So you believe in a works based salvation then? Because the verse says they purified their souls not that it was done to them. Again it doesn't prove your point in the slightest. Why didn't you address the other two?

And in verse 9 it is talking about saved people receiving in the present, not something done in the past. Again nothing here proves your point.

The purifying of the soul came from obedience to the truth...pretty clear from the pasage.

Nothing in the passage or my arguments is about a works based salvation. You have now started accusing me of heresy to try to divert the attention away from your flawed position...nice try again!

As far as verse 9... you need to study the words used in the verse, it will help you understand the meaning. It is literally interpreted "to obtain the result of your faith." That result is the saving of the soul. That is the reason for the rejoicing of verse 8.

You need to work on your exegetical skills.

I will address the other scriptures as I have time.

Max

 

[J. Jump]

You have now started accusing me of heresy to try to divert the attention away from your flawed position...nice try again!

If I need work on my exegetical skills you need equally if not more work on your command of the English language. When a group of words is ended with a ? then it is not an accusation it is called a question.

So there is not an accusing or diverting, but there was a question that was asked of you.

As far as verse 9... you need to study the words used in the verse, it will help you understand the meaning. It is literally interpreted "to obtain the result of your faith." That result is the saving of the soul. That is the reason for the rejoicing of verse 8.

Here again you are proving my point for me. You say it is literally interpreted "to obtain," so the question is why does a group of saved individuals still have "to obtain" something they already have. This is not a past action. It is in the present. Therefore it means their souls were not saved when they were "saved."

If their souls were saved then it would read that you have obtained the result of your faith the salvation of your souls. Or your souls have been saved, because you have received the result of your faith.

Again it does not prove your point as much as you want it to.

The purifying of the soul came from obedience to the truth...pretty clear from the pasage.

Exactly that is my point, and that is why I asked if you believe in a works based salvation. This is speaking of obedience that was required of the Jews. He is speaking to a saved group of Jews. If you go back and read the Gospels you will see that the offer of the kingdom (which this has to do with not eternal salvation) was based on faith and obedience.

So if you are still saying that this is speaking of our past salvation then the only conclusion that you can come to is a works based salvation. That's the only option.

 

[skypair]

Again please show me with Scripture where it says that your soul is what is justified at the moment you believe on the Lord Jesus.

Heb 10:39 "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. " Jas 5:20 "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death,..." 1Pet 1:9 "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

So you can just will yourself from Point A and end up at Point B as Jesus did. Man I must have been skipped over on the glorified body. Skypair there is not Sriptural evidence that you are now living in your glorified body.

The evidence was already given you. You either believe it or, like the Corinthians Paul was chiding, look only for the resurrection after death.

You just said we were in our glorified bodies. Which is it? Are we in our glorified bodies or are we in our corruptible bodies? They aren't the same thing.

"TERRESTRIAL glory" is still corruptible. Jesus could be slain, right? Don't confuse "terrestrial" with "celestial" glory.

skypair

 

[skypair]

[/B]I Corinthians 2 says that the natural (soulical) man can not understand the things of God. And it tells us why. Becuase they are spiritually discerned.

One of you problems is you ain't gonna find 'soulical' cause there ain't such a word! :laugh: 1Cor 2 compares the "spiritual man" with the "natural man" but you don't DARE use the word "spiritual," do you? Cause that would be like admitting that it Is our spirit that comprehends spiritual things and the mind of God or Christ!

Our spirit can't be in the "process" of being saved or we wouldn't be able to understand...

Our spirit is the seat of knowledge. Of course, we would be knowing how to "complete the process." As we study scripture and fellowship, we'll learn these things just as you are now.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Adam and Eve died soulically.

There's that bogus word again. But just to help you back away from that word -- both the soul and spirit are "spirits" just like God and the Holy Spirit are. So every mention of spiritual or spirit doesn't necessarily apply to the soul nor necessarily to the spirit.

Their ability to relate to the physical world was never taken away.

Spiritual doesn't mean you turn into a spirit.

I guess you could say it like this. The spirit contains a will that is new, but the soul contains the old will. It is this old will that we are to die to moment by moment and day by day.

See, we see both as "lively."

Again I have said this three times now and neither you nor skypair have addressed this. If the soul is already saved, and there is nothing else left, then why does Hebrews 10, James 1 and I Peter 1 tell us that the soul is not completely saved?

Huh? Jas 1 -- "receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." If you receive the gospel, your soul and spirit will be saved. Heb 10:39 -- "but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." Did you believe? Then you saved your soul, jump. Not "are saving" your soul -- you are saved! 1Pet 1:9 same.

You seem to have this preconcieved notion (which none of us find in the scriptures you offered) that the soul isn't saved immediately in these passages. Why are you reading it the way you do?/

skypair

 

[skypair]

max,

You're doing a great job, bro. I think one of the "issues" with jump is that he/she has this website with lots of good information based on his/her delineation of soul and spirit. Imagine having to reconstruct such a prodigious amount of information if it turns out not to be right?

skypair

 

[J. Jump]

1Cor 2 compares the "spiritual man" with the "natural man" but you don't DARE use the word "spiritual," do you? Cause that would be like admitting that it Is our spirit that comprehends spiritual things and the mind of God or Christ!

What are you talking about. You don't have a clue. Have you even been reading my posts? I said it is the spirit that needs to be made alive so that we can commune with God in understanding as the Holy Spirit teaches us and communicates with us through our spirit. And then you make a comment accusing me that I don't believe what I have posted. Nonesense.

The word used for "natural" man is the word for soul. It is the soulical man, or the man operating within his own reason, agenda and emotions that can not understand God, becuase God is Spirit and He must be worshipped in spirit and truth.

Your idea of the soul already being saved is contradicted with just this one verse alone. This is saying that the man that allows his soul to dominate can not understand God. The soul is still assoicated with the darkness and therefore can not commune with God.

There's that bogus word again. But just to help you back away from that word -- both the soul and spirit are "spirits" just like God and the Holy Spirit are. So every mention of spiritual or spirit doesn't necessarily apply to the soul nor necessarily to the spirit.

Okay you have to make up your mind is the soul and the spirit are the same thing or if they are different. Which is it?

God is not a Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a Spirit, so your statement does not hold up to the test. God is a tri-part being not a bi-part being. The soul and the spirit are not the same thing.

Huh? Jas 1 -- "receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." If you receive the gospel, your soul and spirit will be saved.

So why was James telling saved folks to do something that would result in something they already had? That doesn't make a lick of sense.

Heb 10:39 -- "but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." Did you believe? Then you saved your soul, jump. Not "are saving" your soul -- you are saved! 1Pet 1:9 same.

Brother there are no past tense words in these three verses. That's why your arguments don't hold water. These are not past completed actions, but are present things that are being told to saved people.

You seem to have this preconcieved notion (which none of us find in the scriptures you offered) that the soul isn't saved immediately in these passages. Why are you reading it the way you do?

Because that's the way the Bible lays it out. We can either believe it or we can try to rewrite it. Most of Christendom has done a tremendous job of rewriting Scripture to fit their own agendas unfortunately

think one of the "issues" with jump is that he/she has this website with lots of good information based on his/her delineation of soul and spirit. Imagine having to reconstruct such a prodigious amount of information if it turns out not to be right?

You really just don't have a clue do you?

"TERRESTRIAL glory" is still corruptible. Jesus could be slain, right? Don't confuse "terrestrial" with "celestial" glory.

Why would you hammer away on me because of my use of the word soulical, when you use a pair of words that I have never seen in Scripture either. What's good for the goose just isn't good for the gander is it?

If you and Max want to continue to believe the way you do that is fine. Our conversations are becoming pointless as you seem to already have your mind made up. And I know you will say the same thing about me, so the profitability has come and gone I believe.

 

[PASTOR MHG]

Skypair,

I think your right about his refusal to change. It requires a great deal of humility when you find out you have to redevelop your whole theology.

This seems like it is becoming a waste of time.

My suggestion to all...start believing what the Bible says on the page in black and white...quit believing what you think the bible says in order to fit your theology.

Just for the record, JJump, you may need to spend a little more time reading and studying the scriptures before you make ridiculous accusations like that of skypair using words not found in the bible...

1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Thank you for the enjoyable debate.

Keep on studying,

Max

 

[Amy.G]

So you believe in a works based salvation then?

JJ, get a new line. You accuse everyone of this who disagrees with you.

 

[Sularis]

Analogy

Here's a simple analogy

Our body is a kick ass computer capable of doing great things
Our spirit is the OS
Our soul is the user

The OS is corrupted - and anybody knows someone who uses a sloppy OS gets used to it eventually and will start doing sloppy things themselves some OS' can even damage the hardware.

So when we get saved our OS gets upgraded - but the user is still used to doing things the old way, and has to learn how to do things the new way

 

[J. Jump]

I think your right about his refusal to change. It requires a great deal of humility when you find out you have to redevelop your whole theology.

You know it just continues to amaze me at the arrogance of some. Neither of you two have ever met me. You don't know me. You don't know my background. You don't know my theological background, but yet you two think you are smart enough to know why I won't change my views. It really does amaze me.

I will tell you like I told skypair you don't have a clue about me. If you really did you wouldn't make such an absurd statement as that.

The problem is you haven't proven your point. You have addressed the issues I brought up other than to try and rewrite what is already written.

This seems like it is becoming a waste of time.

I would agree. You two have your minds made up. You want people to believe you based on what you say and you throw out a couple of Scriptures to back up what you say, but yet you can't answer other Scriptures that contradict what you say. So basically you just want people to believe you because you say so. And that's pretty typical.

Just for the record, JJump, you may need to spend a little more time reading and studying the scriptures before you make ridiculous accusations like that of skypair using words not found in the bible...

Well I stand corrected and must eat some crow. Skypair please accept my apology. I will have to go back and re-read his post to try to get a handle on what he was saying.

See there I have aboslutely ZERO problem admitting when I am wrong. I just don't do it when someone can't prove their point. You proved your point that I spoke out of place. However, you have not proven your point regarding the soul and the spirit.

 

[J. Jump]

JJ, get a new line. You accuse everyone of this who disagrees with you.

Amy I guess you and Max need to take the same English class. It's called a question not an accusation. Why not try to make a productive post instead of a silly one that accomplishes absolutely nothing.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy I guess you and Max need to take the same English class. It's called a question not an accusation. Why not try to make a productive post instead of a silly one that accomplishes absolutely nothing.

Ok, you ask that "question" of everyone who disagrees with you. And my post wasn't silly, it's true.

 

[J. Jump]

And my post wasn't silly, it's true.

It was beyond silly and pointless. It served no purpose what so ever. And I do not ask that question of everyone that disagrees with me.

If you want to make a point regarding the soul and/or the spirit, but you serve no purpose making a comment such as that.

 

[skypair]

You know it just continues to amaze me at the arrogance of some. Neither of you two have ever met me. You don't know me. You don't know my background. You don't know my theological background, but yet you two think you are smart enough to know why I won't change my views. It really does amaze me.

As Rick Warren says, "It's not about YOU." It's about scripture. Your perspective on the issues of soul and spirit do not seem to be founded on good exegesis and I was suggesting the max that it would take something beyond scripture to convince you otherwise.

I don't want to cut off the discussion -- I'm sure you will hear the Spirit in our words and God sends all things forth to accomplish His purposes.

The problem is you haven't proven your point. You have[n't(?)] addressed the issues I brought up other than to try and rewrite what is already written.

You do seem to take the same verses and see them differently. Perhaps viewing them from your perspective, you are seeing a "double negative" (your saved in spirit is our saved in soul) that we see supporting our argument as well. I don't know. It might be helpful if you would try to see what we are saying.

I would agree. You two have your minds made up. You want people to believe you based on what you say and you throw out a couple of Scriptures to back up what you say, but yet you can't answer other Scriptures that contradict what you say. So basically you just want people to believe you because you say so. And that's pretty typical.

Pretty cynical diatribe, JJ. You're not "projecting," are you?

Well I stand corrected and must eat some crow. Skypair please accept my apology. I will have to go back and re-read his post to try to get a handle on what he was saying.

Thanks, JJ. I'd be glad to expand on anything you have a question about.

See there I have aboslutely ZERO problem admitting when I am wrong. I just don't do it when someone can't prove their point. You proved your point that I spoke out of place. However, you have not proven your point regarding the soul and the spirit.

I'm not a theologian -- perhaps you are. But even in the OT, a laymen told Israel, let's send the choir out before the army -- and God gave the victory!

I rather think we are all out to defeat Satan -- not each other. Perhaps you, as a teacher, would be even more effective if your points were easier to see, no?

skypair

 

[J. Jump]

As Rick Warren says, "It's not about YOU." It's about scripture.

Not a huge Rick Warren fan, but Max Lucado has a book out with that title And that's what I've been trying to say all along. That's why at some point these discussions become circular because we start saying the same things.

You do seem to take the same verses and see them differently.

I don't know that I would agree with you. I don't think it's about seeing Scripture any other way than the way it is given to us. That's why when it is talking about something in the present we must deal with what that means instead of saying I know the text is a present tense text, but it's talking about a past action.

(your saved in spirit is our saved in soul)

I do see that a little bit all though I don't know if they are exact equal trade offs. But I believe it is important to speak the same langauge as I think that has caused a great deal of trouble in Christendom unfortunately.

Pretty cynical diatribe, JJ. You're not "projecting," are you?

No but unfortunately my son is Not feel well . . . oh wait that wasn't what you were talking about was it

I'm not a theologian -- perhaps you are.

I don't know that I would classify myself as a theologian as much as I just want to know God and Who He is as revealed by Himself through His Words.

I rather think we are all out to defeat Satan -- not each other.

I don't want to defeat another brother or sister in Christ. And I apologize if that is the way I have came across. However I don't think we can just sit by and not stand up for what we believe to be right. And then we continue to grow and learn and we continue to find out what's right and sometimes we have to modify what we once thought was right. I have recently had to do that as little as a year ago.

Perhaps you, as a teacher, would be even more effective if your points were easier to see, no?

Well in some of the things that I discuss the Bible says that one must have eyes to see and ears to hear, so unless the Holy Spirit opens up ones understanding they aren't going to see matters even if I was the best teacher in all of the world.

I try to make things as clear as possible and I try to clarify when asked to, but at some point it is a matter of the Holy Spirit taking what is presented and making it alive and real to that person. I just try to die to self as much as possible and let Him share His Truth through my members.

 

[skypair]

JJ,

I enjoyed reading your post.

Perhaps I could take another tack. Which part of God is His body? Jesus, right?

Which part of God is His Spirit? The Holy Spirit, no? The Holy Spirit, we all know, "leads us into all knowledge," is "the mind of Christ." He is also "the Comforter" -- sympathizing or having empathy with and loving us (i.e. emotions of God). He leads us into God's will, does the Spirit not? God has all these Himself but He MANIFESTS them through His Spirit to us. That's about as simple as I can get in showing what our spirit is if we are made in God's image. What changes in salvation is that we endeavoe daily to have the mind of God and not our own mind, emotions, and will. We call this "sanctification."

So that leaves? God - the "soul" of God, no? And God is too pure (of conscience) to see sin, which is why He resides in the 3rd heaven until He creates the New perfect Earth. But God is everywhere, right? Yes, everywhere any man is. That is because He IS our conscience.

We are not just a higher form of animal life because we are aware of self. No, we are a higher form because we are aware of God. Therefore, we know how to understand what is "fair" or just. Even where we don't know God, we develop our societies, work groups, etc. according to our collective conscienciousness (3rd dispensation) of right and wrong (Rom 2).

Does this get us out of the "circular reasoning" phase?

skypair