Spirit Through Pentecostals

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
"So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air." Mark Osgatharp

Continue reading the rest of the chapter. You'll see that you have yet again ripped a passage out of context. Others on the board who wish to see where Mark messes up can read the entire passage.</font>[/QUOTE]Scott,

I have read the rest of the passage and it only confirms the fact that Paul was castigating people for talking in a tongue that no one in their hearing understood. And I repeat, Paul was talking about real tongues; and if what he said applied to real tongues how much more to the ridiculous abominations practiced by Pentecostal/Charismatics. As it is written:

"If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned or unbelievers, will they not say ye are mad?"

Therefore it is perfectly Biblical to charge Pentecostals/Charismatics with behaving as if they were utterly nuts!

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
"If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned or unbelievers, will they not say ye are mad?"

Therefore it is perfectly Biblical to charge Pentecostals/Charismatics with behaving as if they were utterly nuts!

So then, which one are you: unlearned or an unbeliever?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
"If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned or unbelievers, will they not say ye are mad?"

Therefore it is perfectly Biblical to charge Pentecostals/Charismatics with behaving as if they were utterly nuts!

Mark Osgatharp [/QB]

Again, you're skipping over entire passages! The verse mentioned is why he set the rules of having only one or two people - at the most three - speaking in tongues, and ALWAYS having an interpreter, when tongues are spoken in church.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Patriot:
According from what I have learned, it is possible for someone to speak angelical tongues through the Holy Spirit

The Bible does NOT say that it is possible to speak in an angelic tongue. There is only one verse in the entire Bible that mentions "tongues of angels" and it does not suggest that anyone HAS done or WILL do so. It merely says that IF a man did, without love the gift would be worthless.

1 Cor 13:1-3

13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
(NIV)

We can NOT prove from this passage that Paul spoke in the tongues of angels because we do know that he never offered up his body to burned or physically moved mountains. Paul used these analagies in this section of scripture for a reason. Paul was making a point about the abuse of gifts in the church. To do so, he used the extreme, that no matter how great or awesome your gift, without love, it's meaningless. Love should be the motivating factor for any gift. Not love of self but love for God and His body of believers.

1 Cor 12:7-8

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
(NIV)
1 Cor 14:11-12
12 So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
(NIV)

There is no scriptural basis anywhere that says there is a tongue of angels. The word tongue simply means "language" the word "unknown" was never in the original texts, so Paul NEVER called a tongue "unknown." That term was added in by translators to "supposedly" help give one a better understanding of the verse, but it was never intended by the original authors. Tongues are languages known to men. There is no biblical evidence that can be proven otherwise.

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Patriot:


It also says that the speaking of tongues edifies the person itself, but not the church:

Yes, but who does Paul say we should edify, the church or the self?

1 Cor 14:12
12 So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
(NIV)

Yes, it edifies self, but the entire point of spiritual gifts is to edify the church.

~Lorelei

 

[Omega]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
The Bible does NOT say that it is possible to speak in an angelic tongue. There is only one verse in the entire Bible that mentions "tongues of angels" and it does not suggest that anyone HAS done or WILL do so. It merely says that IF a man did, without love the gift would be worthless .

That’s exactly right!!! It is an “IF” a hypothetical.

Your friend Omega

 

[Patriot]

If there is an interpreter, it will edify the church. If you speak it on your own, it edifies yourself.

 

[Ben W]

More and more Baptist Churches are becoming "Bapticostal". Not neccesaraly a bad thing.

I note that some people are quick to suggest that the tounges spoken in the pentecostal churches is all mindless babble, A, that is a sweeping statment that genralises a number of groups, and B, only somebody who is gifted with the Spiritual GIft of Interpreting Tounges would be even in the ballpark to make such a statement.

As much as people want to knock down the Pentecostal movement, consider that they lead the way in the modern church for getting people saved.

If that is the "Fruit" of the Pentecostal Movement then it is a good thing and to be encouraged.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Ben W:
A, that is a sweeping statment that genralises a number of groups,

No, it comes from documentation from their own doctrinal statements. They do not profess that their tongues are known languages, but an "angelic" tongue. That is NOT scriptural.

Originally posted by Ben W:
and B, only somebody who is gifted with the Spiritual GIft of Interpreting Tounges would be even in the ballpark to make such a statement.

EXACTLY! So you think that God put us at the mercy of the person with the gift of tongues and the person with the gift of interpretation? We must take their word for it and not have any way to prove if they are indeed filled with the Spirit of God or if they are false spirits and false apostles that are masquerading as Christians? That is very dangerous ground indeed. When you have no way to check the authority of a gift or doctrine against the Word of God then it isn't from God, for He calls us to stay away from such false teachings, therefore we must have a way to hold them accountable!

In Acts chapter 2, the crowd heard the apostles speak in tongues in their own languages. They could understand what they were saying. 1 Corinthains 14 is clear that we must UNDERSTAND what is being said.

A tongue speaker is never at the mercy of the interpreter.

1 Cor 14:13

13 For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says.
(from New International Version)

Originally posted by Ben W:
As much as people want to knock down the Pentecostal movement, consider that they lead the way in the modern church for getting people saved.

When we are saved we are filled with the Holy Spirit who leads us into all "Truth". That truth is that the Holy Spirit gave us all we needed for life and godliness at the moment we were saved. We do not have to ask for anything more. He doesn't give us useless gifts for self edification, but gave us power to be witnesses and to uplift the body. Salvation should not lead one into a false belief about the Holy Spirit that is indwelling you. If you are asking for what you are supposed to already have, if you are asking for things He has not promised you, if you are experiencing things that are not from Him, are you sure that these people are being saved? What Christ are they believing in? The one that died for them to give them life or the one that died for them to empower them to do signs and wonders? Isn't it an wicked and adulterous generation that seeks after signs? I wouldn't be so quick to embrace a movement that holds so many false beliefs about the Spirit of God.

~Lorelei

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
No, it comes from documentation from their own doctrinal statements. They do not profess that their tongues are known languages, but an "angelic" tongue. That is NOT scriptural.

But, as I've pointed out to you, the source you cited was from one, abberant group.

The UPC is a cult and cannot be considered Christian to begin with so how can you take their doctrine and apply it to a host of Christian groups who do not share their views?

We must take their word for it and not have any way to prove if they are indeed filled with the Spirit of God or if they are false spirits and false apostles that are masquerading as Christians?

This is precisely why their words are checked in light of scipture.

When we are saved we are filled with the Holy Spirit who leads us into all "Truth". That truth is that the Holy Spirit gave us all we needed for life and godliness at the moment we were saved. We do not have to ask for anything more.

But now you're committing the same error you claim tongues speaker make. How do you know it's the Holy Spirit if you don't test it in light of scripture?

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Lorelei:

.


[
EXACTLY! So you think that God put us at the mercy of the person with the gift of tongues and the person with the gift of interpretation? We must take their word for it and not have any way to prove if they are indeed filled with the Spirit of God or if they are false spirits and false apostles that are masquerading as Christians? That is very dangerous ground indeed. When you have no way to check the authority of a gift or doctrine against the Word of God then it isn't from God, for He calls us to stay away from such false teachings, therefore we must have a way to hold them accountable!

The same could be said of any preacher or teacher - surely you're not denying there should be preaching and teaching today? No; the same rules apply - all Christians have a duty to weigh what is being brought prayerfully against the light of Scripture, whether what is brought is tongues-interpretation, prophecy, word of knowledge, preaching or teaching. There must be accountability, both 'horizontally' within the congregation, and also 'vertically' to the minister(s) and elders. That's how the whole Body functions and is edified.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
But, as I've pointed out to you, the source you cited was from one, abberant group.

I have done a lot of research and know people involved in several different charismatic denominations. They come in all shapes and sizes, but the majority of them believe these three things. Tongues are an "angelic" or "spiritual" language, not a human one. All of them, though they admit we should use tongues to edify the church, will say it's ok for self-edification "at home" although the context of 1 Corinthians 14 is the church, not home. All of them also say that tongues are evidence of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" that must be sought after and asked for. (some say it's a sign of salvation others say it comes later, both call it the baptism of the Holy Spirit.) The Bible says:

1 Cor 12:13
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free-and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
(NIV)

It was the Spirit that baptized us into the body of Christ at salvation.

Eph 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory.
(NIV)

Tongues are not the evidence of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" and 1 Corinthians is clear that we do not all get the same gifts. Though charismatics distinguish between the "gift" and the "evidence" the scripture never does so.

I HAVE tested the charismatic doctrine against the scripture and found it lacking validity. These things, taught by them, are WRONG. I don't need to hear an interpretation of their false tongue to verify that. Their tongue could not be valid since it's entire doctrine is NOT found in scripture.

I know what charismatics believe and I know doctrinally they are wrong. The AOG for one believes everything I have stated here and they believe in the Trinity. The fact that these tongues that are supposed "gifts of the Spirit" are spoken in such abberant denominations should be a warning flag to you about the doctrine, not something to over look when it is done by people who profess to believe in a Triune God.

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
The same could be said of any preacher or teacher -

No it couldn't. I can UNDERSTAND what the preacher and/or teaching is saying and verify if it is scriptural. Someone speaking in tongues could be cursing God and I wouldn't know the difference. I would have to take their word for it that they are glorifying God.

That is why I look at their doctrine as a whole. They say there are two types of tongues, the Bible does not. They let women speak in tongues, the Bible does not. They say we should ask and seek for tongues and that every christian can do so, the Bible does not. They say the Holy Spirit didn't baptize us at salvation, the Bible says He did. They say tongues can be used for self-edification when the entire point Paul was making was that they should not do so. I don't need to look much further than that. They are already in violation of scripture before they speak in tongues, I don't need any more proof than that.

~Lorelei

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
I have done a lot of research and know people involved in several different charismatic denominations.

You haven't done a lot of research. So far, all you've shown us is one heretical, non-Christian group and tried to paint a Christian group that is not monolithic with one broad, misguided brush.

They come in all shapes and sizes, but the majority of them believe these three things.

I'm sorry but you're wrong.

Tongues are an "angelic" or "spiritual" language, not a human one.

Actually, you said angelic. Don't try to backpeddle now and say angelic or spiritual because angelic and spiritual are not the same thing.

All of them, though they admit we should use tongues to edify the church, will say it's ok for self-edification "at home" although the context of 1 Corinthians 14 is the church, not home.

Once again, a sweeping generalization when all you have shown us is a statement by one non-Christian group.

All of them also say that tongues are evidence of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" that must be sought after and asked for.

Once again, a sweeping generalization when all you have shown us is a statement by one non-Christian group.

(some say it's a sign of salvation others say it comes later, both call it the baptism of the Holy Spirit.)

If "some say..." then it's not "all", is it?

You also conveniently left out that majority of the group who believes that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is nothing more than the empowering for ministry that every believer recieves at the time of his salvation.

It was the Spirit that baptized us into the body of Christ at salvation.

No one is arguing otherwise.

Tongues are not the evidence of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit"

I agree and the mainstream tongue speaking groups do not teach this.

and 1 Corinthians is clear that we do not all get the same gifts.

I agree and the mainstream of tongue speaking groups do not teach this.

Though charismatics distinguish between the "gift" and the "evidence" the scripture never does so.

[/quote

I disagree and, going by your previous posts, you do, too. You're starting to contrdict yourself now.

I HAVE tested the charismatic doctrine against the scripture and found it lacking validity...I know what charismatics believe and I know doctrinally they are wrong.

And I don't believe that you do know what they believe.

Consider that, so far, you've misrepresented mainsteam charismatic teaching on a number of issues and the only evidence you've given was from the UPC, which isn't even a Christian group.

If you can't even tell the most basic of Christian docrines from heresy, then how much credibility do you really have to discuss the finer points of a doctrine which is a secondary, in house debate and with whch Christians on both sides have the liberty to disagree?

The AOG for one believes everything I have stated here and they believe in the Trinity. The fact that these tongues that are supposed "gifts of the Spirit" are spoken in such abberant denominations should be a warning flag to you about the doctrine, not something to over look when it is done by people who profess to believe in a Triune God.

Actually, the AoG adheres to orthodoxy and is not an abberant group.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Matt Black:
The same could be said of any preacher or teacher -

No it couldn't. I can UNDERSTAND what the preacher and/or teaching is saying and verify if it is scriptural. Someone speaking in tongues could be cursing God and I wouldn't know the difference. I would have to take their word for it that they are glorifying God.

</font>[/QUOTE]Which is why tongues should always be interpreted. Surely you can weigh the English interpretation against Scripture?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
You haven't done a lot of research. So far, all you've shown us is one heretical, non-Christian group and tried to paint a Christian group that is not monolithic with one broad, misguided brush.

Actually, the AoG adheres to orthodoxy and is not an abberant group.

Quotes from the Assembly of God's official website

http://ag.org/top/beliefs/baptism_hs/baptmhs_04_privatepublic.cfm

Tongues is the same evidence today when believers are baptized in the Spirit. All believers, when they are baptized in the Spirit, will speak in tongues. However, not all will exercise the spiritual gift of tongues in the church assembled for worship. All will have the evidence, but not all will exercise the public gift of tongues which requires the additional operation of the gift of interpretation of tongues


http://ag.org/top/beliefs/baptism_hs/baptmhs_04_privatepublic.cfm

Praying in tongues during private devotions is an additional ministry of the Holy Spirit. Many believers today testify that praying in tongues greatly enriches their spiritual lives.

http://ag.org/top/beliefs/baptism_hs/baptmhs_17_conscious.cfm

The point is clear: there was a dramatic human response to this divine visitation. From outward appearances it was as if these Spirit-filled believers were inebriated. Similar behavior is sometimes seen today when people are filled with the Spirit, but believers' experiences vary widely. Some have been filled with little or no emotional stirring, and yet the experience has been authentic and real. Others have been so overcome that they have been "lost in the Spirit" and oblivious to their surroundings for a time.

That was my point, though the AOG professes trinitarian and other such believes, their beliefs are similiar to other Charismatics on these issues.

You basically called me a liar and now I am showing you proof from a group of christians that you claim are orthodox. Please do not tell me what research I have and have not done, you cannot possibly know and name calling is not going to prove your point. If you wish to continue to discuss doctrine then that is fine, but if you going to make false accusations and character assinations against me I will refrain from posting any longer.


~Lorelei

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
You basically called me a liar and now I am showing you proof from a group of christians that you claim are orthodox.

I never called you a liar.

The AoG is does hold to orthodoxy and, again, this is just one group out of many.

Please do not tell me what research I have and have not done

When you're asked for proof and you present a group that's not even Christian in nature and then claim that they speak for all Christian tongue speaking groups, it's perfectly reasonable to say that you have not reasearched this properly.

Like I said before, if you can't even differentiate a Christian doctrine from non-Christian, then how much credibility do you have to speak out about the finer points of what is a secondary, non-essential, in house debate withing Christianity?

you cannot possibly know and name calling is not going to prove your point.

I think you have me confused with someone else. I've never called you names.

If you wish to continue to discuss doctrine then that is fine, but if you going to make false accusations and character assinations against me

Again, I think you have me confused with someone else. I haven't made any false accusations against you and I haven't questioned your character.

I will refrain from posting any longer.

Given the problems you're having understanding the diversity of tongue speaking groups, the non-essential nature of tongues, and the most basic of Christian doctrines from the heretical views of the UPC, I think that would be wise.

 

[JesusisGod2]

Hey Mike McC,

Good post brother, I too believe that tongues are a gift that is as genuine today as it was at pentecost.

I agree that if there is no interpretation within the church then they should cease speaking.it is written that "he that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself" 1 cor 14:4

now look in vs 15 Paul says he will pray along in the spirit with understanding of what he is praying for . He didnt say stop praying he said pray along with understanding. and by the way it says the one praying in the tongue is edified. but if in the church there is no interpretation then pray in your spirit to God.

there are a lot today that dont believe tongues are for today and thats too bad. Because one things for sure God wont force them on you.

I started going to a Pentecostal Church about 4 months ago and I'll tell ya, there is power coming from the pulpit and the membership. Now they speak in tongues but not out of turn as some who abuse this great gift.

I myself dont speak in tongues and dont know if I ever will that is up to God. This dont mean I havent been baptised in the Holy Spirit it just means that I dont speak in tongues.

Why do I believe in them then you might ask? Because the bible says they are real and I dont believe there are any mistakes in the bible.

These will disappear when the perfect comes not whwn the book of revelation was complete and unless I missed it, The perfect (Jesus) hasn,t come yet.

God bless

 

[Omega]

Hello JesusisGod2

I noticed in your profile that you do not claim to be Baptist (a Good Bible believing people). Also from the following I take it you may be Pentecostal, I do not know:

"I started going to a Pentecostal Church about 4 months ago and I'll tell ya, there is power coming from the pulpit and the membership. Now they speak in tongues but not out of turn as some who abuse this great gift."

There are BaptistBoard rules posted at the top of this forum section, this is a (Baptist Only Area):

"This is a forum for: Baptists Only. Only Baptists may post a topic or even respond. There are many other areas on the BaptistBoard for non-baptists to post to your heart's content. Topics should be only those that "don't fit" in any of the specific Forums. IF they can be moved to a more fitting place, they will be! Civility will be the norm, not "attack". Focus on the issue not the individual. Debate is encouraged! This is not just touchy-feely fellowship, but a place where every facet of an argument should be held aloft for all to see, understand, and respond to. No "hit-and-run" posts (spam) by folks not interested in sticking around and discussing the issues raised will be allowed."

It may be best to look at this section of the board as a Baptist family talk area. That being said perhaps you may wish to check out a Baptist Church in your area, you may find truth just flowing from that pulpit and a friendly membership too.

Originally posted by JesusisGod2:

"I myself dont speak in tongues and dont know if I ever will that is up to God. This dont mean I havent been baptised in the Holy Spirit it just means that I dont speak in tongues."

I agree with you on not speaking in tongues, and yet being "baptized in the Holy Spirit." But some Holy Rollers would disagree, to quote the AOG:"Speaking with tongues serves as the initial physical evidence of the baptism in the Spirit." Before some of the Charismaniacs jump on me for not stating all that these people believe, I do not plan on copying their L-o-n-g drawn out gobbledygook and posting it. But for the weaker ones, I will post a little bit of their junk.

Again from AOG
"Since the Bible teaches and demonstrates that tongues are the initial evidence of receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit, the Church cannot confirm the opinion of individuals until they actually speak in tongues. But neither can we depreciate a person’s special experience of the presence of the Holy Spirit of God. Such an in-between time might be described as involving a process that is completed only when the person speaks in tongues."

Ok, this Holy Roller group says: "evidence of receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit, the Church cannot confirm the opinion of individuals until they actually speak in tongues." Then they say: "Such an in-between time might be described as involving a process that is completed only when the person speaks in tongues." So such individuals are in a kind of LIMBO. A Pentecostal Limbo who would believe this? Not me and I hope not you, from what I read in your post.

In COLOSSIANS 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:"
This idea of theirs is wrong, that though you may have received Christ in Salvation, you haven’t got it all. You have to have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, evidenced by tongues!!! Brother when you received Christ in Salvation you got it all.

Originally posted by JesusisGod2:
"These will disappear when the perfect comes not whwn the book of revelation was complete and unless I missed it, The perfect (Jesus) hasn,t come yet."

DHK posted the answer all ready:

Originally posted by DHK:
A sound exegesis of 1Cor.13:8-13 gives us "where." Tongues ended when "that which is perfect was come," which I believe to be the completed Word of God, completed in 98 A.D. with the Book of Revelation. The Old English word "perfect" simply means "complete," as it also does in the Greek. The Bible was complete at the end of the first century.
"When that which is perfect." The pronoun "that" is in the neuter gender. It cannot refer to Jesus Christ, for then it would have been in the masculine gender. It refers to the Word. The context of the three chapters 12-14 are the discussion of spiritual gifts. In this context Paul shows how love is greater than all the spiritual gifts put together in chapter 13:1-7. In 13:8 to the end of chapter 14 he continues his discussion with spiritual gifts, this time in particular reference to those gifts which have direct bearing on revelation. All three of the gifts mentioned in 13:8 have to do with the revelation of God's Word. The discussion of tongues and prophecy in chapter 14 has to do with the revelation of God's Word. This is the context now. When the revelation of God's Word is complete we will no longer have need of these spiritual gifts mentioned in 13:8. They are temporary; love is not. Love endures forever. It is a contrast. They ended when the Word was completed. Love continues forever, though the Word is completed. Faith and hope mentioned in 13:13 are not as great as love for they also will end. They will end when we see Christ. We walk by faith and not by sight. When se see Christ we will have no more need of faith. Christ is our hope. When Christ comes, we will have no more need of hope. But these temporary sign gifts ended before then--when the Word of God was completed. They are contrasted as being of less value than faith, hope, and love, for they ceased far before the time that faith and hope will cease, and love never ceases.
DHK”

Your friend Omega

 

[Ben W]

The5re are Stacks of Pentecostal Baptists, that is why we are called "Bapticostal".

Plenty of good Bapticostal Churches to visit, here is a link to a good one of which I hold an international membership, along with being a member of the Seventh Day Baptist Church, the Pentecostal Freewill Baptist Church.

http://www.pfwb.org/main.htm