Spirit Through Pentecostals

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
I never called you a liar.

Originally posted by Lorelei:
I have done a lot of research

Originally posted by Mike McK:
You haven't done a lot of research.

Well, I said I have done a lot of reasearch and you said I have not. So was I telling the truth or were you?

Originally posted by Mike McK:
When you're asked for proof and you present a group that's not even Christian in nature and then claim that they speak for all Christian tongue speaking groups, it's perfectly reasonable to say that you have not reasearched this properly.

No, it's not reasonable to assume anything off of one statement. Which is Why I clarified in the next post that "I have done a lot of research" on the subject. I was telling you that I am familiar with several charismatic groups. You assumed I was not telling the truth based off of one statement I have made. That is not reasonable and would not hold up in a court of law. If you are going to profess that you know how much research I have done, then get some evidence behind you.

Originally posted by Mike McK:
Given the problems you're having understanding the diversity of tongue speaking groups, the non-essential nature of tongues, and the most basic of Christian doctrines from the heretical views of the UPC, I think that would be wise.

I am not having any problems, and if you would like to continue being so adamant that you are right, please quote for me from "mainstream" charismatic groups their doctrinal beliefs that you are insisting that they hold. I have shared two quotes from two different charismatic groups and even though on other doctrinal issues they are completely different, on the issue of tongues they are very similiar. Let me clarify again, these are NOT the only two groups I am familiar with, these are just the two I have quoted. Do not be so rash to think that I know of no other charismatics that believe this way. The Church of God does as well, as well as many independant and non-denomination no name charismatics. I could find others, but there should be no need to continue to defend myself. I could find 50 that agree and it appears that you probably wouldn't care or admit that you were wrong.

Note too, I am the one that has been discussing this from a scriptural viewpiont. I have been addressing what charismatics believe against what the Bible says. Your only argument seems to be that I don't know what I am talking about but you have not offered one shred of evidence, merely your opinion and experiences. My Bible doesn't tell me I have to believe Mike, It tells me that I must believe the Word and do what IT says.

Attacking a poster's knowledge on a subject is a very popular ploy to get the thread off of the subject at hand and away from the fact that the poster has no scriptural or other proof as to what they are saying.

I know I said I wouldn't post any longer, but you I wanted a chance to "defend" myself one more time since you continue to attack my knowledge and character. Now, how about speaking about "The Spirit through Pentecostals" rather than me? Which topic do you have more knowledge about? Me, whom you have never met and rarely discussed any topic with, or pentecostalism which you supposedly have experienced and research tremendously? Why not stick to what you know, because you surely do NOT know me.

The Bible says what the fruits of the Spirit are and I am still amazed that people don't realize that people professing to have the gifts seem to display so little of the fruits.

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by JesusisGod2:
it is written that "he that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself" 1 cor 14:4

The word unknown was not in the original texts. It was added in by the translators, that is why when you see the word it is in italics.

Also note that you cut out half of this verse. If you don't keep scripture in context you can make it mean whatever you want to.

1 Cor 14:4
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
(from New International Version)

The word but is in the text because Paul is comparing and contrasting two different gifts, tongues and prophesy. He is saying that prophesy is better because it edifies the church. So, a person who speaks in tongues is edifying himself and therefore NOT edifying the church. What does Paul say you SHOULD do?

1 Cor 14:12
12 So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
(from New International Version)

The self edification is an example of what NOT to do with your gift.

Context is everything.

~Lorelei

PS. You do need to define if you are Bapticostal or Pentecostal. Non-Baptists cannot post in this forum.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
The self edification is an example of what NOT to do with your gift.

Lorelei,

Amen! The self edification of which Paul spoke was nothing more than self glorification. It was one man building himself up by flaunting his ability to speak in foreign languages.

By the way, what the Scripture says about "tongues" has nothing to do with what Pentecostals/Charismatics practice because what they practice is nothing more than nonsensical babble. It may be instigated by some "spirit" but it is not the spirit of the Lord.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
Well, I said I have done a lot of reasearch and you said I have not. So was I telling the truth or were you?

I was. I'm sure you thought you did a lot of research but all you did was to find a heretical, non-Christian group and tried to use their beliefs to demonize a completely unrelate Christian group, which does hold to orthodoxy.

Then, in a pinch, you went to the AoG's website, the AoG, which also holds to orthodoxy, and tried to use their beliefs on a non-essential matter to demonize an entire group which may not share those views.

You may very well have done "research" but, at best, it was incredibly sloppy research and, at worst, it was a disingeuous straw man argument meant to misrepresent those who disagree with you.

No, it's not reasonable to assume anything off of one statement. Which is Why I clarified in the next post that "I have done a lot of research" on the subject.

If you had done a lot of research, then how did you not know that the UPC wasn't even a Christian group to begin with and why was that the best example you could come up with?

I was telling you that I am familiar with several charismatic groups.

Yes, you told us you were familiar but you showed us that you were not.

You assumed I was not telling the truth based off of one statement I have made.

Actually, I never said you weren't telling the truth.

[qb

If you are going to profess that you know how much research I have done, then get some evidence behind you.[/qb]

Your ignorance of the UPC, your inability to distinguish the most basic of Christian doctrines from heresy is my evidence.

I am not having any problems,

You are having problems, otherwise you wouldn't have tried to pass the UPC of as an example.

[q]

if you would like to continue being so adamant that you are right, please quote for me from "mainstream" charismatic groups their doctrinal beliefs that you are insisting that they hold.

It is not my responsibility to demonstrate what is common knowledge. You're the one making claims that contradict mainstream charismatic Christian thinking, therefore, it's up to you to demonstrate your claims. You're the one who accused them orf heresy and false teaching so it's up to you to demonstrate these things.

I have shared two quotes from two different charismatic groups

Yes and, of those two, one wasn't even a Christian group so we can't accept them as being reresentative of the charismatic movement.

The other was a group that holds to orthodoxy and you still haven't demonstrated what they teach that is heretical.

I could find others, but there should be no need to continue to defend myself.

OK. What you've said so far speaks volumes.

I could find 50 that agree and it appears that you probably wouldn't care or admit that you were wrong.

Perhaps you could but, again, the fact that you've only been able to produce one (and then failed to demonstrate what they taught that was heretical) speaks volumes and the fact that you don't understand that the charismatic movement is not a monolith, that there are as many views on this as there are charimatics, themselves, further calls into question your "research".

Note too, I am the one that has been discussing this from a scriptural viewpiont.

Yes and there is a reason that I hven't gotten into scripture on this matter. It's a non-essential issue that believers on both sides of the issue have the liberty to disagree on and I refuse to cause divison concerning a non-essential issue.

If you have noticed, the point of my posts has not been the perpetuity of the spiritual gifts (which I strongly believe in) but the gifts as they are commonly practiced in the church.

My Bible doesn't tell me I have to believe Mike, It tells me that I must believe the Word and do what IT says.

I agree.

Attacking a poster's knowledge on a subject is a very popular ploy to get the thread off of the subject at hand and away from the fact that the poster has no scriptural or other proof as to what they are saying.

And accusing one who calls your "facts" into question is nothing but a cheap redux of the Clintonista "vast, rightwing conspiracy" ploy.

You don't know the answer so you turn on the one who points out that you don't know the answer, hoping that if you cry loud enough and long enough, no one will notice that you don't know the answer.

I know I said I wouldn't post any longer, but you I wanted a chance to "defend" myself one more time since you continue to attack my knowledge and character.

Yes, you've made the false accusation that I've attacked your character before but you still haven't backed it up.

Now, how about speaking about "The Spirit through Pentecostals" rather than me?

Which topic do you have more knowledge about? Me, whom you have never met and rarely discussed any topic with, or pentecostalism which you supposedly have experienced and research tremendously? Why not stick to what you know, because you surely do NOT know me.

Because of the years I spent within the charismatic movement, I know the charismatic movement.

Because of what you've presented here, I know that you do not.

The Bible says what the fruits of the Spirit are and I am still amazed that people don't realize that people professing to have the gifts seem to display so little of the fruits.

And what fruit were you displaying when you took UPC beliefs and tried to apply them to mainstream, Christian charismatics in order to demonize them? Whatkind of fruit are you displaying when you falsely accuse me of attacking your character and calling you a liar?

Lorilei, this is getting tiresome. I'll pray for you, but I won't respond to you again.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by Patriot:
Does the Holy Spirit really make some members of the Pentecostals to speak in tongues?

G'day & welcome Patriot

IF the Holy Spirit does give that gift, He also arranges someone to interpret. I attended "charismatic" Churches for 4-5 years or so, in that time I saw a bit of "tongues" (also chooks, Red Indians, hyenas...but that's another story), however I never saw an interpreter.

BTW, I mainly use the term "charismatic" for them instead of "pentecostal" because I hate seeing good words hijacked

Pete

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
It is not my responsibility to demonstrate what is common knowledge. You're the one making claims that contradict mainstream charismatic Christian thinking,

I take that as you have no proof. You should do some research yourself, you might find it useful the next time you need defend a statement you make. Attacking me as a person doesn't prove your point.

~Lorelei

 

[Trotter]

One of these days I will learn to just sit down and be quiet...but not today.

Lorelei, you are, and have been, on the money. Good job

.

Now, I cannot agree with the idea that the Pentecostals (or whoever) are the only (or main) ones with the Spirit. The little Baptist church I attend is not a high-flying, rock-loose-the-foundations, fire-and-brimstone congregation, but it is one of the prayingest churches to be found anywhere. We may not have people falling out at the altars, but when someone goes to the altar, almost half the church goes with them. And what does that have to do with all this? The power of the Holy Spirit meets you as you walk into the church. You can feel His presence when you pull into the parking lot. The Lord just pours out His blessings in the services (sometimes our pastor never even gets to take the pulpit).

Now, I'm not claiming that our church is perfect, or that we have a corner on the Spirit. But we are a Baptist (Southern Baptist) church that is open and sensitive to the leading, presence, and power of the Holy Spirit. We are not "Bapticostal", as some have mentioned, just in love with our Lord.

But I have a question- Why does everyone (myself included) automatically assume that when one speaks of the gifts of the Spirit, that "tongues" are the first to come to mind?

As I have stated elsewhere, the "tongues" practiced in churches today have nothing to do with the Spirit, but rather are of the flesh (or someone/something more sinister). Tongues (as used in the Bible) were real languages spoken by real people in the vicinity other the one to whom the gift was given, not "angelic" gibberish. And, besides, even if someone was to actually speak forth a prophetic message, which would you (the reader) give weight...the message or God's revealed Word? Just something to think about.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Ben W]

I speak in tounges, and I can tell you right now that I love the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart, I know plenty of other people who also speak in tounges and use various Spiritual Gifts. Hence from my own experience I can tell you that Cessationism is not right.

I think that people are afraid of Spiritual GIfts and do not want to use them. I think that the same fear causes people to want to control the Spiritual lives of others.

For all the Sledging of Pentecostals, bear in mind that they have a number of good points and are mostly genuine commited Christians serious about getting other people saved. And that is what it is all about. The Pentecostals lead the worlds churches in getting people saved, That is the type of friut that we should be inspecting from churches.

People that slege others when their own church is not getting people saved, should go think about evangalism and how to apply it to their church rather than throw stones at others.

 

[bobby c]

I have never heard anyone explain(to my satisfaction) 1 Cor 13:9-12 when that which is perfect has come then that which is in part will be done away. Jesus has not come back (perfect) so tongues must still be
active?

 

[Mitsy]

Wow...I've been away from the board for a while and am amazed at how many threads/posts there are now.

The word "Pentecostal" certainly caught my eye. I attended a United Pentecostal Church for over a year and a half. Never having been raised in that faith, I was the oddball in the group. I attended there only because I had a few friends there and the group was small. The people treated me really well and I loved the fellowship which lacked in any previous churches I'd attended. The UPC people really do believe that the Holy Ghost is exhibited ONLY by the speaking in tongues. However, what I heard was babble and not a language as such. These people used the music as a way to "frenzy" people into making spectacles of themselves. I never bought their doctrine on that issue. My definition of what "saved" is comes from a Baptist background. That much of my belief never wavered. The UPC bases salvation on a works-based faith instead of the sovereign grace of Christ's blood covering ALL of our sins. Many sermons were on ACTS 2:38 and none were from Corinthians where it talks about the whole "tongues issue" in more depth. It was a very legalistic group overall, but it took me a while to really see that. I still miss the people but not their slanted view of what the scriptures say.

Do I believe that there are sincere Christians who do get this gift? Sure, I do. I just don't base anyone's salvation on whether they have it or don't and that was the dividing line between the UPC and myself. In many circles the UPC (and those that believe similarly) are deemed a cult. I will say, that I believe they were cultish in their view that they were the ONLY ones saved. I found this narrow and far from what Christ's message was all about.

 

[Kent Witcher]

I have never heard anyone explain(to my satisfaction) 1 Cor 13:9-12 when that which is perfect has come then that which is in part will be done away. Jesus has not come back (perfect) so tongues must still be
active?
________________________________________________________________


That which is perfect is speaking of the perfected or rather completed Word of God. The Bible as we know it today.

 

[Trotter]

Let's look back at the original question, shall we?

Patriot: "Does the Holy Spirit really make some members of the Pentecostals to speak in tongues?"

Personally, I do not know. I have stated my opinion as far as the practice of "tongues" is concerned, but I do not have the absolute answer to the question.

Most Pentecostals (or those who have spoken in their "angelic language", the 'haves') will tel you that, Yes, it is the Holy Spirit making them do it. If asked to explain it, you are pointed to Acts 2:4, 10:44-46, 19:6, 1 Corinthians 12:10, 13:1, 14:2. When pressed that these verses are out of context, and that the rest of the facts that the verses are a part of has been omitted, every one will fall back to the same reason, which Ben W stated above, "Hence from my experience ..."

The question that is pestering me (and has been for some time, to put it honestly) is this: What are we to use as our measure? Are we to use the Bible, God's revealed Word, that is available for all, and (according to translations read) says the same thing? Or are we to use subjective experience, something that one has felt (but not all), and is different for each individual at any given time?

Take a moment and think this through...if we took the experiences of individuals as absolute truth, how would things be? Would adultery be wrong if it felt good? Would stealing be against the law if you profitted from it? Would murder be permitted because the person killed "really ticked me off"? What would become of freedom, democracy, society, mankind, if we used subjective experience as the measure of right and wrong?

Thank God we don't have to. We have the revealed will of God, the revealed Word of God. We have the most accurate measuring tool ever known. And, no, I am not discounting the Holy Spirit, for without His work through the Scriptures, we would only have a large collection of unhappy fairy tales and a bunch of rules and regulations that no one can keep.

We are to measure and judge each and every thought, deed, and word, according the God's Word. But we must be careful not to try to "proof-text" the Bible (I have proven many times over that one can make the Bible say anything...if you edit carefully enough). The truth of God's Word must be allowed to speak for itself, and it must be interpreted by itself (allow the Bible to explain the Bible). I have seen and heard too much "soft logic" being touted as "Thus sayeth the Lord", and it is no substitute for sound exegesis and research.

I do not mean to sound as though I am all-knowing (only God is). Nor do I mean to be hurtful, and I am not attacking anyone. But I am asking all to stop and think just what you are using to measure truth, and what you are using to "test the spirits".

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Ben W]

Lets check our grammer,

The Word is Jesus Christ, re John 1:1.

The word is the Bible, There is no perfected Word. Jesus is the Word, and He is already Perfect.

 

[bobby c]

So Jesus is the word, and He is perfect He hasn't
returned then gifts of the Spirit are still active.
we still see see in part don't we.

 

[bobby c]

If the perfect is God,s word then we should see no longer partialy. We should know all things but we don't if we did we woulden't need this board. [sorry for the spelling but im an old street boy who God rescued not very well educated. But the more I see what the educated are doing to the faith maybe thats
not a bad thing.]

 

[Kent Witcher]

....shall lead us into ALL truth.

and again

....you have no need that any man teach you....

 

[bobby c]

We need teachers and thank God for great teachers. The greatest pastor i ever had was an old country preacher. Not well educated no siminary but He preched the cross. And you could see the love of jesus in His life and His concern for people and where they were going to spend eternity. We will never know all things till Jesus returns a few things are for sure 2 of them [1] Jesus is the only way to heaven [2] the Christian life must allways be lived in humility and Love.

 

[Omega]

Originally posted by Patriot:

"Does the Holy Spirit really make some members of the Pentecostals to speak in tongues?"

From what I see in the Word of God, the answer is No.

I do not speak, pray or sing in tongues, or more correctly babble in some unintelligible speech. In I CORINTHIANS 14:7 “And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?” A Great example Paul is giving us here, if the enemy is about to give battle and the Trumpeter cannot sound out the alarm, what are the men going to do?
It is the same thing when you speak, or type for that matter. Example: Ooooolalalaoejjagg alalalowowow Beee Ooyoopoak. Does speaking, praying, singing or typing like this serve any purpose? I CORINTHIANS 14:9 “So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.”

I CORINTHIANS 14:5 “ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.” What could be plainer what could be clearer? Paul does not separate these two he puts them together, when I pray or sing I know what I’m saying. I see the sign gift of tongues (“Wherefore tongues are for a sign”) as just that, a sign gift, who’s time came and pasted. Well first off what was tongues for??? Did God have a reason or plan for this gift? The tongues crowd will scream, shout and cry that it’s a sign we believers got’s the BAPTISM!!!” I will be the first to say “Yes tongues are for a sign!!!”.
I CORINTHIANS 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.” Please note: TONGUES ARE NOT A SIGN FOR BELIEVERS!!! and there goes a lot of Holy Roller theology right down the tubes. If not a sign for BELIEVERS, what was it for? When Paul puts in a “Wherefore” or a “Therefore” it’s there for a propose. It ties us into what proceeded. 21 “In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.” This is a reference back to ISAIAH 28:11 “For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.” The Jews would know ISAIAH, remember when the Lord: Luke 4:16 “…went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.” The Jews would know the prophecy when they heard it, for they knew ISAIAH. This SIGN gift was meant for them, just as Paul says “Wherefore…….”


In I CORINTHIANS 13: 8 “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” I have looked at these verses, and read a few commentaries on them. In Vine’s expository dictionary of New Testament words, I found the following on page 856 “of things, complete, perfect, Rom 12:2 ; I Cor. 13:10 (referring to the complete revelation of God’s will and ways, whether in the completed Scriptures or in the hereafter)” . Others have pointed to “that which is perfect” as the Scriptures and I agree. But noticed something, he said “whether there be tongues, they shall cease” and tongues did cease. I would love to see someone rattle a speaking in tongues chain from today back to the days of the Apostles. But the tongues movement of today started in TOPEKA, KANSAS at the beginning of the last century.

I have been in Holy Rollers services and seen them fall down “slain in the spirit, twitching and babbling” telling me that the Spirit had taken control!!! Well … I CORINTHIANS 14: 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.” The Bible says you have CONTROL, if you need more proof than that I don’t know what it would be. I CORINTHIANS 14: 33 “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” If you have seen Holy Rollers in action, is not confusion the word that best fits?

There are Charismaniacs in most mainline denominations, Charismatic Presbyterians, Charismatic Methodists, Charismatic Roman Catholics, Charismatic Episcopalians ect… It is sad but true that we Baptist, a Good Bible believing people, are infested by this Charismania plague too. Some would say that this is a latter day pouring out of the spirit, others (myself included) see this as nothing but false teaching that has come into the church. I would caution against any Bapticostal (Baptist/Pentecostal) or (Pentecostal/Baptist) church mix, a Bipolar church that would like to be both Pentecostal/Baptist. I would recommend to all a Good Bible Believing Baptist Church (as oppose to a Bipolar one).

I hold no malice for people with the opposite view, but would love to see them come back into an OLD Fashion Bible Believing Baptist Church.


Your friend Omega

 

[Omega]

I have to say it, Lorelei GREAT JOB!!!! I really enjoy your posts. After reading your posts, I can see that you have done your homework on this subject.

Your friend Omega

 

[Ben W]

We have currently about 148 different Baptist Denominations, I dont see that even one of these can lay claim to being the original Baptists.

Baptist groups have splintered over and over again and the pentecostal issue is only one of many that divides us, there are Bible Believing Baptist Churches that teach Pre Trib, there are Bible Beliving Baptist churches that teach Post Trib, then we have Cessationist's and non Cessationists. How about Calvanists and Armanian's? I could go on on on about the different views of "Bible Based Baptist Churches". The fact remains that it is the Pentecostal - Charasmatic groups that are getting people saved while numbers of those who are sledging them are not.

Go to a Bible Based Church for sure, there are many of these that are Pentecostal. Yet go to one that is carrying out the final instructions of Jesus Christ and bringing people into His Kingdom, not a group running around sledging others.