Spiritual Death II

[The Biblicist]

We have the same human spirit as Adam. I agree. Where we disagree is I believe this spirit is not renewed but recreated. I believe God yanks that old sucker out and gives us one which is of God.

He gives us a "new" spirit alright but not a DIFFERENT spirit as it is the same spirit "dead in tresspasses and sins" that is quickened and thus "renewed" (Tit. 3:5) in the image of God. Paul says we are "alienated from the life of God THROUGH IGNORANCE THAT IS IN THEM" and new birth is being "renewed in the knowledge of God" not replacing the spirit of man.

 

[The Biblicist]

Regeneration is expressed metaphorically as speaking light into existence (2 Cor. 4:6) but it is the "light of the knowledge of God" whereas spiritual death is described in opposite terms "alienated form the life of God THROUGH IGNORANCE THAT IS IN THEM" (Eph. 4:18). Hence, there is no removal and replacement of human spirit, but removal of ignorance with replacement of knowledge which comes by an effectual call just as it was an effectual call that called light into existence.

Its the handwriting upon the OLD HEART that makes it a NEW heart rather than removal of the heart and giving another heart. It is the union of the Spirit of God with the human spirit that makes it alive rather than replacing it with another spirit. Making it alive simply changes its SPIRITUAL CONDITION from a "being evil" to being "upright."

Adam was created with a spirit that was "upright" which was in communion with God and did not need quickening until his spirit became "dead in tresspasses and sins." His spiritual life was MUTABLE and CONDITIONAL whereas our spiritual union with God is immutable and unconditional - that is the only difference.

 

[JonC]

We know his spirit became "dead in tresspasses and sins" at the point death entered the world and that is an EXISTING SPIRITUAL CONDITION, therefore it transitioned to that state from a state OPPOSITE from "death" and the ONLY state the Bible provides that is OPPOSITE of death is LIFE. There are NTHER BIBLICAL OPTIONS. Scripture only contrasts death to life there is no other option and your view requires another option or complete cessation of the spirit which contradicts plain explicit scriptuers (Eph. 2:1-3; 4:18-19).

Scripture is about God revealing Himself to fallen man. Redemption history begins with God breaking through the ANE milieu with a revelation of Himself and culminates in the fullest revelation of God Himself in Christ Jesus.

I’ve been dragging out this argument to see how philosophical it would (perhaps could) go. It went far (in circles, but in big ones).

Yes, I agree (again) that man has a human spirit. No, I will not indulge the philosophical by looking for a “back door” to discover truths about pre-fallen man. I am not interested (that is philosophy).

Scripture teaches that there is life ONLY in Christ. IMHO this is an eternal truth.

We can argue about whether this relates to the body, the soul, the spirit, etc. but it really does not matter. That is the trajectory of man, not the direction Scripture takes.

I was kind of having fun here because I had already made it very clear that any theory about God that goes around Christ is, IMHO, philosophy rather than theology. But now that the thread is closing I see post after post after post quoting me and to which I will not respond (because time will not allow – I’m going to bed and in the morning will close the thread).

Y’all can, of course, have the last words. Quote some John Gill or Joel Beeke…maybe Osteen if y’all feel like it.

Perhaps we can start another thread in the future that will be more edifying…..maybe less fun….most of the edifying stuff is less fun.

 

[JonC]

Adam prefall did not need a new heart before the fall.as in ezk36....it was not tainted by sin .

Say it taint so.

 

[The Biblicist]

Scripture is about God revealing Himself to fallen man. Redemption history begins with God breaking through the ANE milieu with a revelation of Himself and culminates in the fullest revelation of God Himself in Christ Jesus.

I’ve been dragging out this argument to see how philosophical it would (perhaps could) go. It went far (in circles, but in big ones).

Yes, I agree (again) that man has a human spirit. No, I will not indulge the philosophical by looking for a “back door” to discover truths about pre-fallen man. I am not interested (that is philosophy).

Scripture teaches that there is life ONLY in Christ. IMHO this is an eternal truth.

We can argue about whether this relates to the body, the soul, the spirit, etc. but it really does not matter. That is the trajectory of man, not the direction Scripture takes.

I was kind of having fun here because I had already made it very clear that any theory about God that goes around Christ is, IMHO, philosophy rather than theology. But now that the thread is closing I see post after post after post quoting me and to which I will not respond (because time will not allow – I’m going to bed and in the morning will close the thread).

Y’all can, of course, have the last words. Quote some John Gill or Joel Beeke…maybe Osteen if y’all feel like it.

Perhaps we can start another thread in the future that will be more edifying…..maybe less fun….most of the edifying stuff is less fun.

Simply put, your theory is completely and irrefutable repudiated by Scripture and so you run as fast as your little legs can carry you to your fake accusations of philosophy when in fact you are the only one using philosophy to defend your theory and even philosophy fails you.

FACT: The human spirit does not cease to exist when death entered this world
FACT: The spiritual condition of Adam's spirit prior to the fall is not a condition of DEATH
FACT: The Bible knowls of no other condition of spirit other than LIVING to DEAD- none, nada!
FACT: The human spirit in its dead condition (sinful condition) is the direct object of quickening as an existing spirit
FACT: It is not replaced but MADE ALIVE "renewed" (Tit. 3:5) by transitioning between "ignorance" that "alienated them from the LIFE of God" to being "renewed in the knowledge of God (Eph 4:24; Col. 3:10).
FACT: Adam's spirit at creation was received directly from God and was in spiritual communion with God and was not in a "dead" condition and there is no other option provided in scripture to a "dead" spirit than a living spirit.
FACT: His LIFE in body, soul and spirit was CONDITIONED and MUTABLE and the tree of knowledge proves that. Hence, he existed in a STATE OF LIFE in body, in soul and in spirit until "death" entered the world.

These are all facts that clear explicit scriptures demand as scriptures provide NTHER OPTIONS, NTHER ALTERNATIVES.

Your position is based WHOLLY upon philosophical inferences that have no scripture for support.

 

[Iconoclast]

Say it taint so.

What filthiness, or idols did he have before he sinned? He did not have a sinful heart at this point.
He did not even have a knowledge of good and evil yet.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[JonC]

Thread is closed.