Good because I was getting a bit lost and thought my mind was slipping more than usual.I am questioning and answering you as we are posting, but I type like a turtle.
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Spiritual Death II
- Thread starter Aaron
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Well okay...this is a tragic mistake and not scriptural. No wonder you cannot solve the puzzle as to where spiritual death actually occured, because you deny it, even though you admit men are spiritually dead???
Iconoclast pauses to get another coffee as he cannot get his mind around JonC and his musings.
I was not talking about consequences of that CONDITION but the nature of that condition whether it was physical or spiritual.
You ignored my direct questions. Will you please answer my questions directly? I asked the following:
then will you admit that "dead in tresspasses and sins" is descriptive of the SPIRITUAL CONDITION/STATE of that spirit as described in Ephesians 2:2-3; 4:18-19 or are these descriptions of the PHYSICAL STATE/CONDITION of the human body?
Remember, the CONDITION being described was remedied by quickening! Can you include the physical anatomy as part of what was quickened?
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Too late, it's getting ready to close.....time to join the fun and try to get that last jab in before anyone can respond.*Sees that this has become a mess of cataclysmic proportions, and bows out*
It's a BaptistBoard tradition.
Let me ask you on this....I already said man has a human spirit. But I also said that this human spirit is not spiritual life because this Life is only in Christ.
Keep up Iconoclast....you're falling behind
ADAM before sin has a spirit. was it a dead spirit, or was it alive and able to have fellowship with God before sin and death??
Not the Holy Spirit...but a brand new human spirit without defect,without sin, but untested.
Original righteousness in fellowship with God, but yet untested.
I know how spiritual death exists as defined in Scripture. I also know how your tradition believes spiritual death occurred.Well okay...this is a tragic mistake and not scriptural. No wonder you cannot solve the puzzle as to where spiritual death actually occured, because you deny it, even though you admit men are spiritually dead???
I've been arguing to see how you would defend your position (and if you, in fact, knew how much was actually in the biblical text).
I told you before - I once held your view. I once understood Scripture from the same position that you now stand (theologically). Back then I was no less a Christian and no less a disciple of Christ than I am now. So I know that you are a brother and even though I argue pretty strongly I also know that you will not be persuaded to look at Scripture apart from those theories because I would not have been persuaded either.
I wish that I could explain to you the depth of Scripture you are missing. But I know that ten years ago I would have fought tooth and nail against my explanations. It took God to reach through my own traditions (in a rather unpleasant way) for me to even try to study His Word apart from the false narrative I had adopted. And even now I know that this is beyond the gospel itself. You know Christ and serve Him faithfully. But will you ever see past the lens you have chosen? I doubt it. And it really does not matter here so much because I do not argue for your benefit. Participants in an argument are never open to change.
But perhaps another may read these arguments and decide to see for themselves - not by studying theology, philosophy, or a certain tradition but by abandoning any presuppositions and turning to Scripture. That is the outcome I hope will occur. Our churches need a revival and a turn towards God's Word. The more we continue the more I believe this will include a shift from Tradition and a man-made narrative towards Scripture or it will not occur here at all.
Unlike Iconoclast....I type fast.Hey...I deleted that post.
I thought better of it and decided not to say anything...but since you brought it up...
*bows out, fast*.
(sorry, I must have replied as you were deleting)
No one denies there are physical consequences but it is not the consequences that was "quickened" but the "spirit" (Jn.3:6).
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: {blindness: or, hardness }
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
So again, are these descriptions of their SPIRITUAL CONDITION/STATE or of their physical condition? Again, we are not asking about the plethora of consequences but the CONDITION of the spirit as cause of such consequences which is also the object of quickening.
I believe that Adam had a human spirit, not one that Scripture qualifies as possessing "Life" but one that was made "upright" (innocent). That said, I do believe that Scripture is consistent throughout, not just after the Fall. So I believe that Adam's transgression shows how a human spirit aligns with God. Even though man is created in the image of God, man is also created short of God's glory. This, I believe, was evidenced in the Fall. We inherit that same human nature which is never enough.
It is definitely a state of the heart, which would be the state of the spirit (a human spirit).
As I told Iconoclast, though, my objection was not that man lacked a human spirit (I acknowledged that quite a bit back). My objection is that this human spirit constitutes "spiritual life".
the 900lb elephant in the room
Better question is HOW did spiritual life enter:
7`Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT
"The Spirit where He willeth doth blow". You think God operated differently then than He does now? I don't.
As far as 'Christ in you' that was a major major mystery revealed with the incoming of the Gentiles 'into the fold':
26 even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints,
27 to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col1
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10
Not a doubt in my mind that 'Christ in you' was the defining characteristic of 'the other sheep' (Gentiles), that had been hidden for 'ages and generations' before the revelations of the new covenant.
I find this very confusing....aligns with God? in what way?
Was Adam able to fellowship with God....was his spirit alive to God before the fall.
okay I like that you explain how you are where you are. I have not fully answered you yet. Biblicist in the nature of man thread put on a seminar that I found consistently biblical.
I would further develop the Image bearer doctrine.
With everything you have posted , your view on .how spiritual death was passed on to all men through Adam is not existent, and .consequently I do find it to be defective and do some damage to the gospel
JonC you can only answer what you can, same as the rest of us. God allows us to understand, or He withholds understanding from people for His reasons.
I really do not think you have found something that somehow everyone on the planet has somehow missed.
Have you come across anyone, anywhere who has offered similar speculation, or is it just you?
I really do not think you have found something that somehow everyone on the planet has somehow missed.
Have you come across anyone, anywhere who has offered similar speculation, or is it just you?
EXACTLY!!!!!
And that is what separates theology from philosophy.
Philosophy asks how did spiritual death originate. This is not actually addressed in Scripture (the Bible speaks from the point of mankind post-fall)
Theology asks how did LIFE enter into the world of spiritually dead men.
But you have a pre- versus post quickened state of the same spirit. If the latter constitutes spiritual life then the former must constitute spiritual death.
But, I see a deeper problem to your view. Adam had to enter into the state of being "spiritually dead" from a previous state where his spiritual condition could not be characterized by what these texts constitute as spiritual deadness.
His "spirit" came directly from God's own being and you can't believe that anything derived spiritually from God does not consitute spiriutal life. Death entered with his sin, and that had to include being "spiritually dead" or else there is no source for that CONDITION of spirit.
Of course I have not discovered a new idea. I am repeating a VERY old idea, but one that is foreign to your tradition.
That was one of my points. When we come up with something new we can be pretty darn sure it is not correct.
If you would like to study what other Christians have held throughout history then there are many starting points. I doubt you would consider any of my recommendations, so I'll withhold them. But just know that there are other ideas other than expressed in your tradition that are at least as old.
It should be obvious, it did not enter by Adam's sin as that is called "death" and that had to be the condition of Adam's spirit when he sinned. Thus prior to his sin his condition of spirit could not be characterized as "dead." To imagine that God created his spirit in anything other than the condition that characterizes life is not only unthinkable, as his very spirit came from God's own being and any spiritual condition derived directly from God must be characterized as LIFE as nothing but LIFE can characterize God. The answer here is starring everyone in the face, his SPIRIT LIFE was MUTABLE and the conditions are set forth in clear langauge that he would "die" at the point of sin and death entered at that point. Conditions made his life conditional and thus his spirit, body and soul were all mutable with regard to life received directly from God.
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