Spiritual Death II

[JonC]

It appears that you do believe that God bruised or crushed him but not that He struck Him. I don't know what you mean; I only know what you write.

I believe what I wrote.

I believe that God offered His Son as a guilt offering for us, that He was "pleased to crush Him", that God did not spare His own Son.

Insofar as your quote "I will strike the Shepherd", I am not entirely sure that you have thought this through. At least, it seems probable that you have taken it very much out of context.

Matthew 26:31-35
31 Then Jesus *said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.'
32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee."
33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away."
34 Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times."
35 Peter *said to Him, "Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You." All the disciples said the same thing too.

Where you err is in thinking that God was being wrathful towards Christ by offering His own Son. You would do well to include in your studies examples of Abraham offering Isaac. This is, IMHO, a type of what was to come.

Look, MartinM, we are just not going to agree. There are too many passages that deny God was wrathful towards Christ when He offered Him (when He did not spare His own Son) to accept your eisegesis of a few passages.

You wonder how I could view God as not being wrathful to Christ while also believing it "pleased God to crush Him". You wonder how I could view agree with the passage "I will strike down the Shepherd, and the flock shall be scattered" yet still hold that God was not wrathful towards Christ (that the cross was not the Father "striking" the Son in the context of wrath). I know this. I know it does not make sense to you.

 

[JonC]

Do you believe that man is at least composed of material and immaterial substance? Do you believe the immaterial substance is "spirit" and thus "spiritual" in nature?

I guess we would have to define "spiritual". I believe that man has a soul (and that soul is not physical) if that is what you are talking about.

 

[JonC]

What I see is what the text says: that 'God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son' to be stricken and crushed and tortured and killed to make propitiation for our sins. 'He who did not spare His own Son.....' How it must have wrung the Father's heart and how we should rejoice and praise God for His wonderful grace!

But that is not what you have been saying.

I agree with that text (and actually what you write here). What you have been adding, however, is that God was wrathful towards Christ, God separated from Christ, etc. That is a very different matter from the passages we both agree upon.

 

[The Biblicist]

.

Do you believe his spiritual substance is "dead in tresspasses and sins" or does that refer to his material substance and it was his material substance that was quickened (Eph. 2:1)?

 

[The Biblicist]

I guess we would have to define "spiritual". I believe that man has a soul (and that soul is not physical) if that is what you are talking about.

If it is not "physical" then of what is it composed?

 

[The Biblicist]

I guess we would have to define "spiritual". I believe that man has a soul (and that soul is not physical) if that is what you are talking about.

Assuming you believe the immaterial aspect of human nature is "spirit" with regard to substance, and assuming that you believe "dead in tresspasses and sins" refers to the CONDITION of this spirit substance as described in Ephesians 2:2-3 which is the object of quickening rather than their physical bodies, then will you admit that "dead in tresspasses and sins" is descriptive of the SPIRITUAL CONDITION/STATE of that spirit as described in Ephesians 2:2-3; 4:18-19 or are these descriptions of the PHYSICAL STATE/CONDITION of the human body?

 

[JonC]

Assuming you believe the immaterial aspect of human nature is "spirit" with regard to substance, and assuming that you believe "dead in tresspasses and sins" refers to the CONDITION of this spirit substance as described in Ephesians 2:2-3 which is the object of quickening rather than their physical bodies, then will you admit that "dead in tresspasses and sins" is descriptive of the SPIRITUAL CONDITION/STATE of that spirit as described in Ephesians 2:2-3; 4:18-19 or are these descriptions of the PHYSICAL STATE/CONDITION of the human body?

I do believe men are dead in their sins. I lean towards this being primarily a spiritual state (although I can see how the physical consequences of sin are included).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Where you err is in thinking that God was being wrathful towards Christ by offering His own Son.

How many times do I have to tell you that God was NEVER, EVER AT ANY TIME wrathful towards Christ? Do you ever read my posts? Have you read this? Do you understand? God's wrath is against sin, and Christ was (willingly) made sin for us, so God's wrath against sin and His judgement upon sin fell upon Christ instead of against us, so that He might be just and the justifier of the one who believes on Jesus. CHRIST NEVER EVER CEASED TO BE THE BELOVED SON. If you don't understand this after about three years of posting, words fail me! I wrote it in post #52 in this very thread and referenced you.

 

[JonC]

If it is not "physical" then of what is it composed?

If it is not physical then I am not sure we can measure or determine its "composition". What is a soul made of? What is a spirit made of? What is a nature made of?

This is what I mean by philosophy. I loved it as an undergrad but the older I get the less I enjoy such things.

 

[JonC]

How many times do I have to tell you that God was NEVER, EVER AT ANY TIME wrathful towards Christ? Do you ever read my posts? Have you read this? Do you understand? God's wrath is against sin, and Christ was (willingly) made sin for us, so God's wrath against sin and His judgement upon sin fell upon Christ instead of against us, so that He might be just and the justifier of the one who believes on Jesus. CHRIST NEVER EVER CEASED TO BE THE BELOVED SON. If you don't understand this after about three years of posting, words fail me! I wrote it in post #52 in this very thread and referenced you.

I know you believe God lovingly poured out His wrath on Christ (targeting our sins). But if you look back it has only been withing the last 6 months you've emphasized the focus on our sins and not Jesus (not that it matters).

By "wrathful" I mean the pouring out of one's wrath upon another. I do not mean emotionally enraged.

Are you now saying you DO NOT believe God laid our sins on Christ and poured out His wrath (the punishment reserved for us for our sins) on His Son and for 3 hours Christ experienced this separation from God??!!!!

Fantastic! It is always good to see a brother abandon his traditions for Scripture. Welcome to the club.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I know you believe God lovingly poured out His wrath on Christ (targeting our sins). But if you look back it has only been withing the last 6 months you've emphasized the focus on our sins and not Jesus (not that it matters).

It does matter and it isn't true. I have been correcting you on this for at least two years.

By "wrathful" I mean the pouring out of one's wrath upon another. I do not mean emotionally enraged.

The Scriptures never say that God was wrathful towards Christ because He never was. God's wrath is against sin. You have bragged that you understand the Doctrine of Penal Substitution, but you haven't got a clue. But I tell you this: if God's righteous anger and holy fury against your sins and mine has not been propitiated by those sins being laid upon Christ (Isaiah 53:6) and by Him bearing that anger and the punishment due instead of us, then we shall bear that wrath and punishment ourselves.

 

[Iconoclast]

The interaction continues

4] Are you suggesting God created man with a dead spirit/soul?
Here is what you said in the other gnostic thread;

Scripture teaches that spiritual death never occurred. It teaches this not by stating the negative (requiring such is a logical fallacy) but by explaining the meaning of spiritual life.

This is your theory that is without merit.
So you ignore that Adam had a human spirit that had life and could fellowship with God..You keep trying to say that life is only found in Christ, that is by the indwelling Spirit of God.

You ignore that Adam lived with a human spirit that had life. It was brand new. There was no defect, there was no sin, there was no death.....it was a new living spirit/soul, unaffected by sin.

.

I am suggesting that God gave Adam the breath of life and made Adam a living soul.

ok
At this point, he was not spiritually dead. Nothing suggests spiritual death, or any death existed.
However, in your theory, Adam could not be alive in this original righteous state as he was not said to be sealed in Christ, who was not named as of yet.

Adam was, however, did not merit in himself the glory of God (Adam’s state did not equate to Spiritual Life as defined in the Bible)

.
According to your explanation and definition which is an NT.. based explanation.

Adam was created as man. This state of creation is evidenced by how Adam behaved under God’s command (see James 3; John 11, 14; and 1 Corinthians 15).

This is quite vague in this way you really say nothing about Adam having a spirit at all. You suggest there is an absence of The HOLY SPIRIT which gives eternal life, so Adam had a spirit, [that did nothing? it was neutral?] I do not know you do not say.


5]

If Adam had a "spirit/soul" that was alive and able to commune with God, Did any EVENT happen that changed the status of the non-material part of Adam, his spirit, or soul?

???? no answer really
next you say this;

Adam did not have a “spirit/soul”,.Adam did have a soul.

I am a dichotomist so if he had one[soul] he had the other[spirit].
. Are you suggesting he did not have a human spirit.?

Scripture indicates God gives man a spirit;
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I think Biblicist caught on to this and you dismissed him when he called you on it.

But Scripture does not define “spiritual life” or “of the Spirit” as “having a spirit/soul.

According to your misunderstanding, but everyone else besides you sees it. Adam had a human spirit....it was not injected into mankind later on after the fall.

What Scripture tells us is that there was a change in Adam.

yes there was....

He became “like God” in knowing good and evil. Scripture does not speak of a change in Adam’s nature or as Adam dying spiritually [/QUOTE]

Sure it does.....

(Biblically this would be God dying in Adam or, at best, Adam defeating God as the Spirit worked to do good and Adam chose evil).

This makes no sense. If Adams human spirit died, why would that be God dying in Adam?

 

[Iconoclast]

If it is not physical then I am not sure we can measure or determine its "composition". What is a soul made of? What is a spirit made of? What is a nature made of?

This is what I mean by philosophy. I loved it as an undergrad but the older I get the less I enjoy such things.

A yet it is not philosophy, but scripture;

Man has a human spirit; 1 cor2:
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

6] is there any event that left Adam with a dead spirit?

[QUOTE]Not biblically. There are a few philosophical ideas out there about two human natures (a pre-fall nature and a post-fall nature). But the Bible does not actually speak of these theories[/QUOTE].
It sure does....according to you, Adam was born a child of wrath? If he did not have a spirit, he would be born hostile and a hater of God.

The Bible presents possessing spiritual life as Christ dwelling in that person and God putting His Spirit in that person. So if we stick to the Bible the answer is simply that God did not create Adam a spiritual being,

That is what you are posting here, although now you will deny it.

but a human being that would need to be reborn (like a seed that must fall to the ground to become what it was ultimately meant to become). (see 1 Corinthians 15; Genesis 3, James 3)

So when created before sin, Adam was born a guilty rebel is what I am reading.

7] how are ALL MEN spiritually dead?

Natural man is not created “in Christ”. Christ IS the Life. Adam was created “of the flesh”. Adam is the representative of natural man where as Christ a life giving Spirit. Spiritual life is Christ living in us.

(John 1, 3; 1 Corinthians 15; 2 Corinthians 13Romans 5, 8)

 

[JonC]

It does matter and it isn't true. I have been correcting you on this for at least two years.

The Scriptures never say that God was wrathful towards Christ because He never was. God's wrath is against sin. You have bragged that you understand the Doctrine of Penal Substitution, but you haven't got a clue. But I tell you this: if God's righteous anger and holy fury against your sins and mine has not been propitiated by those sins being laid upon Christ (Isaiah 53:6) and by Him bearing that anger and the punishment due instead of us, then we shall bear that wrath and punishment ourselves.

You are making a false accusation against me, I suspect to tame down what you have stated in the past (but only you know).

God could not look with favour upon Christ as He hung upon the cross.'

Christ is made sin, and God's righteous anger against sin is poured out upon Him.

He was not made a sinner- He was never that- but He was made the very epitome of sin and suffered, willingly (John 10:17-18; Hebrews 12:2), the full wrath of the Father.

I have never claimed that you believe God was wrathful towards Christ in any other way but making Christ the epitome of sin for us and pouring out wrath towards that sin.

But you try to wiggle out by a play on words.

Here is what you have claimed:


1. God could not look on favor upon Christ as He hung on the cross.

2. God’s righteous anger against sin is poured out on Christ.

3. Jesus was made the very epitome of sin and suffered the full wrath of the Father.


That is what I mean by “wrathful”.

 

[JonC]

A yet it is not philosophy, but scripture;

Man has a human spirit; 1 cor2:
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

I already said man has a human spirit. But I also said that this human spirit is not spiritual life because this Life is only in Christ.

Keep up Iconoclast....you're falling behind

 

[JonC]

That is what you are posting here, although now you will deny it.

I won't deny it (careful about false assumptions, they'll make....liars....of us if we are not careful). God did not create Adam a spiritual being. I am perfectly comfortable stating that. Adam is "of the flesh".

 

[Iconoclast]

I already said man has a human spirit. But I also said that this human spirit is not spiritual life because this Life is only in Christ.

Keep up Iconoclast....you're falling behind

I am questioning and answering you as we are posting, but I type like a turtle.

 

[The Biblicist]

If it is not physical then I am not sure we can measure or determine its "composition". What is a soul made of? What is a spirit made of? What is a nature made of?

This is what I mean by philosophy. I loved it as an undergrad but the older I get the less I enjoy such things.

Does the Scripture use the term "spirit" to describe the non-physical aspect of human nature? If so, it is not philosophical speculation to determine it is "spirit" if Scripture uses that term to describe it is it?

Now, if I had asked you what is spirit made of, that is another question altogether but I never asked that did I?

Shall we agree the Biblical term for the immaterial aspect of human nature is called "spirit" by God's Word? If not, I can sure throw lots of scripture to challenge any kind of denial.

Now, lets proceed. Does "dead in tresspasses and sins" describe the physical material body of the Ephesians or does it describe the condition of their spiritual nature? If you say the body, then you must take the position that the human body is the object of quickening? Obviously Jesus contradicts when he says "what is born of Spirit IS SPIRIT." (Jn. 3:6).

Now, lets proceed. Is that condition of the human spirit further described in Ephesians 2:2-3 and 4:18-19 or is Paul describing the condition of their physical anatomy? Is he describing a their SPIRITUAL STATE/CONDITION?

 

[JonC]

Six hour or plus warning....get 'yer licks in before the thread closes!!!

Last call for wrath-ahol

(seriously, the thread has reached that point and will be closed sometimes tomorrow. If there is a legitimate conversation left in the mess then please feel free to start another thread).