Spiritual Death II

[JonC]

Adam was certainly not a divine being, but had he not fallen into sin, his body would not have become 'dust' (Genesis 3:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:47-49) because he would not have died. But of course, he did and he has, and so have all his progeny.

Adam is quite unable to give life to his fallen seed; only the Lord Jesus Christ can do this. That is why He is described as a 'life-giving spirit.' But Christ's body before His resurrection was just the same as Adam's (Hebrews 2:14-18), except, of course, that it never saw corruption and did not became dust. And if Christ returns before we die, nor will ours (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).
This is absolutely true of fallen man; we are 'brought forth in iniquity,' and conceived as sinners (Psalms 51:5). But it was not true of Adam who was made 'upright.' 'The LORD knows the days of the upright, and their inheritance shall be forever' (Psalms 37:18). 'Whoso walks uprightly shall be saved' (Proverbs 28:18). Moral uprightness is an attribute of God (Psalms 25:8).
Try not to be silly, not to mention sacrilegious.
The reason no one dies spiritually today is that because of Adam's fall, we are all born spiritually dead. Of course He is! This is true of everyone born since Adam; there is no spiritual life outside of Christ for them. Nor, come to that, was there spiritual life for Adam apart from Christ He was formed and made by Christ for close fellowship with the triune God. But if your tradition does not enable you to see the difference between Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 5:3, then I'm really not sure that I can help you find the truth of the matter.

I never said that Adam was a divine being. I said that Adam did not posses by nature what the Bible calls spiritual Life ("Christ living in us").

Our disagreement is that simple. No need to wring out things that do not exist.

If you believe there is spiritual life outside of Christ then perhaps you should give the topic more thought.

If you believe Adam was created with "Christ living in him" and later "dying in him" (dying spiritually) then you may want to give the matter more thought.

If you believe this Life temporary then perhaps you have not thought it through (even if you believe you have).

 

[JonC]

Who has ever suggested that God esteemed the Lord Jesus stricken and cursed? God struck Him (Isaiah 53:10) and He endured God's curse on sin by becoming sin for us, but He never ceased to be the 'beloved Son' as I have explained to you at least a dozen times. It was for 'the joy that was set forth before Him' that Christ endured the cross, despising its shame. None so deaf as those who won't hear.
You certainly need to.

I NEVER claimed "God struck Him". If you are accusing me of that heresy then perhaps you need to read my affirmation of Acts 3 before making a false claim.

 

[JonC]

The crux of the issue (and the disagreement) is whether God created Adam with or without "Christ living in him".

It is a very simple question and one I believe Scripture itself answers when it describes what it means to have "Christ living in us"

So my answer is that Adam was created flesh, not "born of the spirit" and in need of a rebirth as evidenced by the Fall.

The opposing position is that Adam was created with spiritual life (with "Christ in him") and the Fall effected "spiritual death" (Adam's sin caused "Christ in him" to "die, for the Life to end in Adam).

The difference is whether it is appropriate to compare Adam's transgression with the sins of man. I contend James 3 applies here. So I view the Fall as a manifestation of man's nature in relation to God whereas the opposing view sees the Fall as bringing about a different nature in man.

Simply put, I see an eternal need for the redemption of man in Christ. I view Christ as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world and creation to have come through Him and exist for Him. So Adam always needed a rebirth if he was to enter God's kingdom which is not inherited by flesh and blood.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I never said that Adam was a divine being. I said that Adam did not posses by nature what the Bible calls spiritual Life ("Christ living in us").

Our disagreement is that simple. No need to wring out things that do not exist.

If you believe there is spiritual life outside of Christ then perhaps you should give the topic more thought.

If you believe Adam was created with "Christ living in him" and later "dying in him" (dying spiritually) then you may want to give the matter more thought.

If you believe this Life temporary then perhaps you have not thought it through (even if you believe you have).

Read my post again, please.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I NEVER claimed "God struck Him". If you are accusing me of that heresy then perhaps you need to read my affirmation of Acts 3 before making a false claim.

It was I who said God struck Christ. 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise (or 'crush') Him; He has put Him to grief.' If you believe that to be heresy then you need to have it out with God.

 

[JonC]

Read my post again, please.

I am posting as I am walking to another meeting. I may have misread your post.

If you were not accusing me of attributing to God what Scripture refers to as the actions of the wicked then ignore the statement. Yhat is why I added "if".

That said, I do not think anyone here is claiming "God struck Jesus". So it is a strawman claim.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I am. '"Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, against the Man who is My companion," Says the LORD of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd........."' (Zechariah 13:7).

 

[Iconoclast]

"JonC,

Finally some progress; I had asked JonC to answer 7 questions....I also said this-

No need to deflect by posting 5x that eternal life is In Christ. Everyone agrees. Focus on the seven questions if you would be so kind.

So now we start to see his thinking although he feels the need to mention 3x that spiritual life is In Christ one again the reason is becoming clear..

Jon you chided us as not being scriptural by speaking of "spiritual death".You said it was unbiblical. Could you show the bible verse that uses the term "spiritual life"?

 

[Iconoclast]

]1]Did Adam not have a spirit?

Scripture teaches that whatever Adam was he did not possess “spiritual life”. I

That was not the question was it? The question was, did Adam have a spirit?

would say that Adam had a human spirit,

You have to say that because the bible clearly says God gives it; Eccl12
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

but not what the Bible calls spiritual life (i.e., the indwelling of God)

Where does the bible say spiritual life? What verse uses that exact wording?
I ask this because you made this claim;

BUT Scripture never speaks of a "spiritual death". The lost do not experience a "spiritual death" because they were never "spiritually alive" to begin with.

So where does this idea of a "spiritual death" originate?

I suspect tradition as men built theory on theory to smoothe out the biblical narrative. This is, in a sense, a "Christian mythology" woven throughout biblical truths as doctrine.

So show us the exact term

. Many have debated the meaning of “soul and spirit”. I tend to shy away from this philosophy and stick to the Bible.

Yes indeed since you stick to the bible you can show us the exact bible quote of these terms,spiritual life

 

[JonC]

It was I who said God struck Christ. 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise (or 'crush') Him; He has put Him to grief.' If you believe that to be heresy then you need to have it out with God.

I think we all belueve "it pkeased yhe Lord to crush him". If you have not realized this in the past two years of conversation then there may indeed be an issue here.

You offered an interpretation which I (along with others, to include others of the Reformed Tradition) rejected for various reasons. Now you seem shocked other interpretations may exist that affirm the verse.

 

[JonC]

"JonC,

Finally some progress; I had asked JonC to answer 7 questions....I also said this-


So now we start to see his thinking although he feels the need to mention 3x that spiritual life is In Christ one again the reason is becoming clear..

Jon you chided us as not being scriptural by speaking of "spiritual death".You said it was unbiblical. Could you show the bible verse that uses the term "spiritual life"?

The term? No. Scripture was not written in English.

I have shown that Scripture refers to spiritual life as being "born of the Spirit" and this "Christ in us".

Are you denying those have spiritual life only have this life in Christ?

 

[JonC]

]1]Did Adam not have a spirit?



That was not the question was it? The question was, did Adam have a spirit?


You have to say that because the bible clearly says God gives it; Eccl12
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


Where does the bible say spiritual life? What verse uses that exact wording?
I ask this because you made this claim;


So show us the exact term



Yes indeed since you stick to the bible you can show us the exact bible quote of these terms,spiritual life

This is what I mean by you choosing philosophy over Scripture.

You should have been content with Scripture.

Do you reject the doctrine that "born of the Spirit" is only "in Christ" and the work of the spirit is "Christ in us"?

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC continues;


2]Did Adam not have a soul?

Yes, Adam had a soul. (see Deuteronomy 4, Psalm 61, Jeremiah 6; Joshua 23; and 1 Corinthians 15)
Good we agree Adam had a soul

3] If Adam had a spirit, pre-fall was it a dead spirit?

JonC answers Not applicable.


....It is only central to the discussion

In the closed Moral nature thread Biblicist showed exactly why this is applicable in post 10;

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. - Gen. 2:17

So, what aspact of human nature died "in that day"? He did not say "at some point in the future thou shalt surely die" but "in the day thou eatest".

So, again what aspect of Adam's nature died "in that day"? What is it to "die"? It was not physical death that occurred "in that day." It was not the "second death" that occurred "in that day."

Whatever died in that day ultimately is the cause of physical death, and the second death as both follow. So what is death and what died in that day?

I believe it is the only other possible alternative to physical and second death and that is "spiritual death" and therefore it was his spirit that died in that day and it is his spirit that is born again (Jn. 3:6) or quickened (Eph. 2:1, 5).

Whatever died in that day had to be alive prior to that die as something nonexistent or non living can't die. Whatever aspect that died was previously alive.

His soul did not cease to exist in that day as it was as active after that day as it was before that day. So, death cannot mean cessation of existence when it comes to the immaterial aspect of man's nature.

So what is death with regard to man's spirit? It is separation from the Spirit of God. It is certainly not separation from the spiritual world as those "dead" in this sense are very active with the spiritual world (Eph. 2:2-3; 1 Jn. 4:1; 1 Tim. 4:1b).

What died in that day was his spirit in the sense of spiritual separation from God. That is not possible unless there was spiritual union prior to that day as something non-existent can't die and something cannot be separated from what it never was in union with.

Hence, man was made in spiritual union with God and his spirit suffered spiritual separation in the day he sinned.

This is not myth or speculation, but based on the fact of scripture that death occurred "in that day" he sinned and it could not be his body and it could not be cessation of his soul and the only other possible alternative and NECESSARY inference is spiritual separation.

 

[JonC]

I am. '"Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, against the Man who is My companion," Says the LORD of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd........."' (Zechariah 13:7).

Try again:

Zechariah 13:6-9
And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will say, ‘ Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’ "Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, And against the man, My Associate," Declares the LORD of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones. "It will come about in all the land," Declares the LORD, "That two parts in it will be cut off and perish; But the third will be left in it.“And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are My people,’ And they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”

 

[JonC]

JonC continues;


2]Did Adam not have a soul?

Yes, Adam had a soul. (see Deuteronomy 4, Psalm 61, Jeremiah 6; Joshua 23; and 1 Corinthians 15)
Good we agree Adam had a soul

3] If Adam had a spirit, pre-fall was it a dead spirit?

JonC answers Not applicable.


....It is only central to the discussion

In the closed Moral nature thread Biblicist showed exactly why this is applicable in post 10;

Don't be foolish, @Iconoclast . You know very well I said it was not applicable because of the previous answers. If you treat Scripture this way there is no wander you have drifted so far from it. Just as you create your own narrative with my statements you have decontextualize the biblical text to create a mythology through which you have interpreted God's Words.

My words, like yours, are unimportant. BUT if you cannot be faithful with unimportant things how can we expect you to be faithful to the important?

 

[Iconoclast]

Per Scripture Adam had what it was to be man,

Yes indeed, A physical body, a non-physical component, spirit soul.

Now I noticed that you responded to my partial reply. This is good solid progress as it should be

lLet me add your first response here
[QUOTEThe term? No. Scripture was not written in English.

I have shown that Scripture refers to spiritual life as being "born of the Spirit" and this "Christ in us".

Are you denying those have spiritual life only have this life in Christ?][/QUOTE]

No I am not denying anything at this point. I am just showing your apparent confusion/hypocrisy in that you made a big deal that you could not find the term "spiritual death"
that is why I posted 50 of your statements where you posted contradictory statements on this while trying to hold our feet to the fire on this wording.
you called it, fables, myths, philosophy...now you want to make as if you did not do that?
Reformed mentioned this very clearly citing eph.4, col2...and you ignored him. Biblicist outlined the biblical meaning of spiritual death.and you attacked him as well.
Now you want to illustrate the biblical teaching and expect us to go with it, when you were asked to, you refused and spoke down to us as "gnostic christians".

Can you now understand what we see in your posts? This double standard?

but not “spiritual life” as defined by the Bible (see the answer to the first question along with the passages noted)

I am more than willing to use that terminology, without calling you agnostic, unbiblical, philosophical. You are the one offering philosophy....Biblicist referred to it as "hot air" as you offered no scripture whatsoever.

 

[JonC]

Yes indeed, A physical body, a non-physical component, spirit soul.

Now I noticed that you responded to my partial reply. This is good solid progress as it should be

lLet me add your first response here
[QUOTEThe term? No. Scripture was not written in English.

I have shown that Scripture refers to spiritual life as being "born of the Spirit" and this "Christ in us".

Are you denying those have spiritual life only have this life in Christ?][/QUO

No I am not denying anything at this point. I am just showing your apparent confusion/hypocrisy in that you made a big deal that you could not find the term "spiritual death"
that is why I posted 50 of your statements where you posted contradictory statements on this while trying to hold our feet to the fire on this wording.
you called it, fables, myths, philosophy...now you want to make as if you did not do that?
Reformed mentioned this very clearly citing eph.4, col2...and you ignored him. Biblicist outlined the biblical meaning of spiritual death.and you attacked him as well.
Now you want to illustrate the biblical teaching and expect us to go with it, when you were asked to, you refused and spoke down to us as "gnostic christians".

Can you now understand what we see in your posts? This double standard?



I am more than willing to use that terminology, without calling you agnostic, unbiblical, philosophical. You are the one offering philosophy....Biblicist referred to it as "hot air" as you offered no scripture whatsoever.

I see. You are arguing from ignorance.

My point was not that the words "spiritual death" did not appear in Scripture. My point was that the concept of one experiencing a spiritual death does not appear in Scripture. There are (in Scripture) two natures - the flesh and the spirit. From Adam we get the flesh - to include a non-physical part as we have fleshly desires, a will, and a soul. But according to Scripture there is only one way man is "of the spirit", and that is to be born-again, which also means "Christ in us" because Christ IS that Life.

You can deny that all you want, but what you are rejecting are those passages.

It is foolish to claim that I have "spoken down to you" by referring to you as "gnostic christians". You are blending a couple of threads together in your mind. The other thread about "gnostic chirsitans" may apply, that's up to you. I certainly did not label you as such. If you believe my description applies then it is because you are favoring your narrative over God's (revisit the post).

 

[Iconoclast]

I will add in your last response here JonC

Don't be foolish, @Iconoclast . You know very well I said it was not applicable because of the previous answers. If you treat Scripture this way there is no wander you have drifted so far from it. Just as you create your own narrative with my statements you have decontextualize the biblical text to create a mythology through which you have interpreted God's Words.

My words, like yours, are unimportant. BUT if you cannot be faithful with unimportant things how can we expect you to be faithful to the important?

JonC,
I know what you answered previously, you wanted to insert your view of spiritual life to try and avoid the 900lb elephant in the room....where did "spiritual death enter"?
You are not fooling anyone here JonC. still accusing us of "mythology" and yet expecting us to let you do..

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I NEVER claimed "God struck Him". If you are accusing me of that heresy then perhaps you need to read my affirmation of Acts 3 before making a false claim.

I think we all believe "it pleased the Lord to crush him". If you have not realized this in the past two years of conversation then there may indeed be an issue here.

I think maybe you need to sort out what you do believe..

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Try again:

Zechariah 13:6-9
And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will say, ‘ Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’ "Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, And against the man, My Associate," Declares the LORD of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones. "It will come about in all the land," Declares the LORD, "That two parts in it will be cut off and perish; But the third will be left in it.“And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are My people,’ And they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”

Try again again. The Lord Jesus applies the words I quoted to Himself. Matthew 26:31.