Come back to the Scriptures.
The curse. Who pronounces it? Is it pronounced upon those God favors, or upon those who are vessels of wrath?
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Spiritual Death II
- Thread starter Aaron
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The curse. Who pronounces it? Is it pronounced upon those God favors, or upon those who are vessels of wrath?
In Deuteronomy Israel actually pronounces the person cursed.
Stay focused.
You stated ignorance in terms you did not grasp how there could be more than two ways of viewing Christ's death - it was either God showing favor to Christ or God showing wrath to Christ.
Personally I am a bit surprised that you think God showing favor was an option, but whatever.
My point is that your limiting it to those possibilities is ignorant of several other theories that view the Cross as God's will but man (not God) as the perpetrator.
I am not suggesting you need to go to a bible college or seminary before engaging these types of posts. But you should at least educate yourself prior to making asinine assumptions that can be disproven by a simple search of opposing views of Atonement.
There is a popular level book, The Nature of the Atonement: Four Views that may help illustrate other ideas you apparently do not know exist. These are not new views, but may be outside of your tradition.
Good luck. Prepare yourself, learn a bit more outside your tradition, and then lets have a good conversation.
JonC
That's a lot to try to say the pains of death are sin.
It isn't the lash.
It isn't the thorns.
What made Christ sweat great drops of blood? Roman crucifixion? The thieves that were crucified on either side didn't sweat blood. Lesser men, non Christian, have walked into more excruciating physical pains in war than in crucifixion. I dare say that many of Christ's disciples have suffered physically more than He did. Had more vile things done them. Were defiled in sick and twisted ways more than Christ.
But those aren't the pains of death.
The pains of death aren't physical, just as you finally got around to saying.
So, elaborate. What are the pains of death?
What verse are you speaking of (Jesus sweating great drops of blood")?
Lol. You have to misquote me to argue. I said curse, not death. Cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree. Does the curse issue from God's favor or wrath?
See above. Does the curse issue from God's favor or wrath?
Man doesn't pronounce the curse. The law pronounces it, and the law was given by God.
Lol. If you'd quit revising my statements, you wouldn't have an argument.
Lol. Might I suggest to you the Pentateuch? Your reasoning therefrom leaves much to be desired, and I might suggest it's because you don't know it very well.
Hello DaveG,Gentlemen,
I see this subject as not worth arguing over.
There's no reason to accuse each other of being heretical, and no reason to be angry at one another.
I encourage you to hammer things out without getting into a fluff.
Let's all remember James 3:1-18.
It's not worth the damage.
Thanks for the reminder and caution.I think it is a battle line and quite significant. This error here leads to many errors.
You can see it in JonC not understanding the atonement correctly. JonC is a nice guy, but he likes to read all manner of things and sometimes you stand the danger of getting infected with false ideas. He is not looking for a cure at this time as he thinks he has it right and is calling the historic.faith myths and fables and traditions.
That Christ was abandoned, and received wrath for the sins of his people? I did that in the OP.
JonC,
No..it is biblical and you refuse to answer as you did about a dozen times with Biblicist.
Do you think Adam was created with a dead spirit? or a spirit that was alive?
If Adam had a spirit that was alive...can you think of any event in scripture that would have left Adam...with a dead spirit?
You keep diverting to what you want to speak about, and not answering direct questions. It is obvious you cannot answer.
What I asked you and Jon Schaff is this; let me clarify. In your false view-
1]Did Adam not have a spirit?
2]Did Adam not have a soul?
3] If Adam had a spirit, pre-fall was it a dead spirit?
4] Are you suggesting God created man with a dead spirit/soul?
5] If Adam had a "spirit/soul" that was alive and able to commune with God, Did any EVENT happen that changed the status of the non material part of Adam, his spirit, or soul?
6] is there any event that left Adam with a dead spirit?
7] how are ALL MEN spiritually dead?
Biblicist crushed you on these issues and you were unable to respond. Your false straw man about all mankind being spiritually alive and then dead is not an issue that anyone is raising so stop saying it.
We are dealing with Adam, prefall, post fall. I numbered seven specific questions so you cannot worm out like you have done on the last three threads
That is not at issue, as biblicist toasted you on this several times already. No one disputes this at all, stop diverting from the questions asked to you.
I do trust scripture despite you insinuation that I do not. I do not depart from the faith once delivered to the saints however, which you are revealing you are drifting full sail in that direction.
Yes we have all offered that to you
We do believe that, so we cannot follow you away from the safe harbor scripture gives to us.
No, it looks as if you have volunteered to offer uncle JonC's storytime and novelties instead.
No..it is biblical and you refuse to answer as you did about a dozen times with Biblicist.
Rephrase, no thanks ...that is how you avoid answering the questions
No I asked what I wanted to ask which was this:
Do you think Adam was created with a dead spirit? or a spirit that was alive?
If Adam had a spirit that was alive...can you think of any event in scripture that would have left Adam...with a dead spirit?
You keep diverting to what you want to speak about, and not answering direct questions. It is obvious you cannot answer.
Notice I did not ask you about Adams physical body[his flesh]
What I asked you and Jon Schaff is this; let me clarify. In your false view-
1]Did Adam not have a spirit?
2]Did Adam not have a soul?
3] If Adam had a spirit, pre-fall was it a dead spirit?
4] Are you suggesting God created man with a dead spirit/soul?
5] If Adam had a "spirit/soul" that was alive and able to commune with God, Did any EVENT happen that changed the status of the non material part of Adam, his spirit, or soul?
6] is there any event that left Adam with a dead spirit?
7] how are ALL MEN spiritually dead?
Biblicist crushed you on these issues and you were unable to respond. Your false straw man about all mankind being spiritually alive and then dead is not an issue that anyone is raising so stop saying it.
We are dealing with Adam, prefall, post fall. I numbered seven specific questions so you cannot worm out like you have done on the last three threads
That is not at issue, as biblicist toasted you on this several times already. No one disputes this at all, stop diverting from the questions asked to you.
I do trust scripture despite you insinuation that I do not. I do not depart from the faith once delivered to the saints however, which you are revealing you are drifting full sail in that direction.
Yes we have all offered that to you
.
We do believe that, so we cannot follow you away from the safe harbor scripture gives to us.
No, it looks as if you have volunteered to offer uncle JonC's storytime and novelties instead.
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Deuteronomy 21:22-23Lol. You have to misquote me to argue. I said curse, not death. Cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree. Does the curse issue from God's favor or wrath?
See above. Does the curse issue from God's favor or wrath?
Man doesn't pronounce the curse. The law pronounces it, and the law was given by God.
Lol. If you'd quit revising my statements, you wouldn't have an argument.
Lol. Might I suggest to you the Pentateuch? Your reasoning therefrom leaves much to be desired, and I might suggest it's because you don't know it very well.
“If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.
Are you suggesting that man controls God like a voodoo witch???!!!!! Hang someone and they are cursed by God.
I think you may need to study a bit more here. Hanging did not make one cursed but was a sign Israel had found the guy guilty of such a crime as to be cursed of God.
Read Deuteronomy 21. Then read Psalm 22 right afterwards. Who estermen Jesus stricken and cursed? Hint - the wicked men for whom He died....not God.
Try again.
Figures you would refuse to rephrase to make your question center on God and use biblical language instead of man-centered. That is why I called your question philosophy rather than theology. You look to man in your questions and pretend the answer you imagine is of God.Rephrase, no thanks ...that is how you avoid answering the questions
No I asked what I wanted to ask which was this:
Do you think Adam was created with a dead spirit? or a spirit that was alive?
I know you will object but - What does Scripture say?
1. There is no spiritual life ourside of Christ (you add "except Adam")
2. Spiritual life is everlasting (you add "except with Adam")
3. Spiritual life is God's Spirit in us by which He causes obedience (you add "except with Adam")
4. Christ IS that Life (you add "except with Adam" indicating God died in Adam).
5. Scripture says God made Adam a living soul and contrasts this with Christ a life giving Spirit (you add "but Adam was also spiritually alive")
Get the picture. ALL you have is the philosophical idea Adam had to have been alive in order to be spiritually dead. But Scripture presents Adam (natural man) as simply not having a spirit that is spiritually alive. Was Adam created this way? If James 3 is correct, then yes, he was. He was created "of the flesh" and not "of the spirit" and even Adam needed to be born again as evidenced by Adam eating the fruit.
Your "what if's" and "how was Adam before he sinned" IS philosophy by definition. Stop trying to wiggle out of it and pretend it's theology. It is not. It's humanistic philosophy - period. It is trying to go around Christ and God's revelation to discover other "truths".
There is Icon and there is Scripture.
Your idea that Christ who IS the spiritual Life, God's own Spirit in us, was in Adam and Adam experienced His death is nonsense.
Contrary to your narrative Scripture teaches that spiritual life is "Christ in us". God is not inept.
Think about Who this Life is (not your philosophy about what this life is but Who Scripture say IS this Life before you trample over God by claiming He died when Adam sinned.
And MAKE NO MISTAKE Icon - when you claim one is alive spiritually you are claiming God's work described in Ezekiel applies to them (as Paul put it, "Christ in us"). When you claim this was "undone" then you make God a liar. Spiritual life is everlasting because God is that Life.
Okay, now you're just being silly. Hanging one on a tree according to the law means one is accursed of God. And Paul links that straight to the Cross.
You can't get around it.
So now the question is, does this curse issue from God's favor, or His wrath?
No. Read the passage. It meant the criminal committed a paticular set of crimes and were considered cursed of God because of the sins committed. Israel made the derermination based on the offense.
Your better argument would be that Christ became a curse for us. At least there you are not committing a logical fallacy. I suppose the only problem would be that I actually agree Christ became a curse for us. I even belueve Christ suffered the wages of sin, although he never sinned.
Nice try, though.
Notice Jon c does not answer the seven questions as asked. No he does exactly what I asked him not to do
No JonC...I did not ask you to repeat your view of what spiritual life is...
I did ask you did Adam have a spirit?
A human spirit?
Maybe I can only ask you one question at a time so you do not confuse yourself avoiding the questions
Again, I am not asking you about God the Holy Spirit.
Did Adam have a spirit? Try that first
then we can ask the next question.Your excuses have run out my friend. It is becoming quite obvious who is going to philosophy . Your theology of man is defective if you cannot answer simple theological questions.
I did not read seven questions asked. (I don't know what you are talking about). I am on a phone and when the post looks to be rambling I skim over it.Notice Jon c does not answer the seven questions as asked. No he does exactly what I asked him not to do
No JonC...I did not ask you to repeat your view of what spiritual life is...
I did ask you did Adam have a spirit?
A human spirit?
Maybe I can only ask you one question at a time so you do not confuse yourself avoiding the questions
Again, I am not asking you about God the Holy Spirit.
Did Adam have a spirit? Try that first
Your excuses have run out my friend. It is becoming quite obvious who is going to philosophy . Your theology of man is defective if you cannot answer simple theological questions.
Ask them (just the questions, skip the diatribe) and I will answer. I only answered the one by having Scripture address the error.
(And one color, preferably black. I usually skip over the words not in black.....exceot for Jesus 'cause we all know He used red ink).
The seven questions were written in black in post 68....seven questions, looking for seven answers..Biblicist asked these questions two threads ago....in black...and yet you must have skipped over them there also
I asked in post 73 in black ink the first two questions also. Did Adam have a human spirit in Gen1:31? I am trying to get clarification on your posting.
I would like you to answer all seven questions.
No need to deflect by posting 5x that b.c. eternal life is In Christ. Everyone agrees. Focus on the seven questions if you would be so kind.
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1]Did Adam not have a spirit? Scripture teaches that whatever Adam was he did not possess “spiritual life”. I would say that Adam had a human spirit, but not what the Bible calls spiritual life (i.e., the indwelling of God). Many have debated the meaning of “soul and spirit”. I tend to shy away from this philosophy and stick to the Bible. (see 1 Corinthians 15; James 3; Romans 6, 8; 1 John 4; John 6,8, 11, 14, and 17).The seven questions were written in black in post 68....seven questions, looking for seven answers..Biblicist asked these questions two threads ago....in black...and yet you must have skipped over them there also
I asked in post 73 in black ink the first two questions also. Did Adam have a human spirit in Gen1:31? I am trying to get clarification on your posting.
I would like you to answer all seven questions.
No need to deflect by posting 5x that b.c. eternal life is In Christ. Everyone agrees. Focus on the seven questions if you would be so kind.
2]Did Adam not have a soul? Yes, Adam had a soul. (see Deuteronomy 4, Psalm 61, Jeremiah 6; Joshua 23; and 1 Corinthians 15)
3] If Adam had a spirit, pre-fall was it a dead spirit? Not applicable. Per Scripture Adam had what it was to be man, but not “spiritual life” as defined by the Bible (see the answer to the first question along with the passages noted)
4] Are you suggesting God created man with a dead spirit/soul? No. I am suggesting that God gave Adam the breath of life and made Adam a living soul. Adam was, however, did not merit in himself the glory of God (Adam’s state did not equate to Spiritual Life as defined in the Bible). Adam was created as man. This state of creation is evidenced by how Adam behaved under God’s command (see James 3; John 11, 14; and 1 Corinthians 15).
5] If Adam had a "spirit/soul" that was alive and able to commune with God, Did any EVENT happen that changed the status of the non material part of Adam, his spirit, or soul? Adam did not have a “spirit/soul”. Adam did have a soul. But Scripture does not define “spiritual life” or “of the Spirit” as “having a spirit/soul. What Scripture tells us is that there was a change in Adam. He became “like God” in knowing good and evil. Scripture does not speak of a change in Adam’s nature or as Adam dying spiritually (Biblically this would be God dying in Adam or, at best, Adam defeating God as the Spirit worked to do good and Adam chose evil).
6] is there any event that left Adam with a dead spirit? Not biblically. There are a few philosophical ideas out there about two human natures (a pre-fall nature and a post-fall nature). But the Bible does not actually speak of these theories. The Bible presents possessing spiritual life as Christ dwelling in that person and God putting His Spirit in that person. So if we stick to the Bible the answer is simply that God did not create Adam a spiritual being, but a human being that would need to be reborn (like a seed that must fall to the ground to become what it was ultimately meant to become). (see 1 Corinthians 15; Genesis 3, James 3)
7] how are ALL MEN spiritually dead? Natural man is not created “in Christ”. Christ IS the Life. Adam was created “of the flesh”. Adam is the representative of natural man where as Christ a life giving Spirit. Spiritual life is Christ living in us. (John 1, 3; 1 Corinthians 15; 2 Corinthians 13 Romans 5, 8)
Do you define "spiritual life" as "Christ living in us" (Romans 8)?
Dave, I know you mean it kindly, but you cannot possibly know how deeply I've considered this question.
Tell me I'm wrong if that's what you think, but please don't patronize me.
Adam was certainly not a divine being, but had he not fallen into sin, his body would not have become 'dust' (Genesis 3:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:47-49) because he would not have died. But of course, he did and he has, and so have all his progeny.
Adam is quite unable to give life to his fallen seed; only the Lord Jesus Christ can do this. That is why He is described as a 'life-giving spirit.' But Christ's body before His resurrection was just the same as Adam's (Hebrews 2:14-18), except, of course, that it never saw corruption and did not became dust. And if Christ returns before we die, nor will ours (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).
This is absolutely true of fallen man; we are 'brought forth in iniquity,' and conceived as sinners (Psalms 51:5). But it was not true of Adam who was made 'upright.' 'The LORD knows the days of the upright, and their inheritance shall be forever' (Psalms 37:18). 'Whoso walks uprightly shall be saved' (Proverbs 28:18). Moral uprightness is an attribute of God (Psalms 25:8).
Try not to be silly, not to mention sacrilegious.
The reason no one dies spiritually today is that because of Adam's fall, we are all born spiritually dead.
Of course He is! This is true of everyone born since Adam; there is no spiritual life outside of Christ for them. Nor, come to that, was there spiritual life for Adam apart from Christ He was formed and made by Christ for close fellowship with the triune God. But if your tradition does not enable you to see the difference between Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 5:3, then I'm really not sure that I can help you find the truth of the matter.
Who has ever suggested that God esteemed the Lord Jesus stricken and cursed? God struck Him (Isaiah 53:10) and He endured God's curse on sin by becoming sin for us, but He never ceased to be the 'beloved Son' as I have explained to you at least a dozen times. It was for 'the joy that was set forth before Him' that Christ endured the cross, despising its shame. None so deaf as those who won't hear.
You certainly need to.
37818
Well-Known Member
Adam without the tree of life in that garden was to die. And because of aquiring God's knowledge of good and evil, God prevented them from living forever in a sinful state, being finite man with the knowledge of evil (Genesis 3:22). Mankind as decendants of Adam inherit this condition, this being the cause of mankind to be spiritually dead.
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