Featured Spiritual Death II

In Deuteronomy Israel actually pronounces the person cursed.

Stay focused.

You stated ignorance in terms you did not grasp how there could be more than two ways of viewing Christ's death - it was either God showing favor to Christ or God showing wrath to Christ.

Personally I am a bit surprised that you think God showing favor was an option, but whatever.

My point is that your limiting it to those possibilities is ignorant of several other theories that view the Cross as God's will but man (not God) as the perpetrator.

I am not suggesting you need to go to a bible college or seminary before engaging these types of posts. But you should at least educate yourself prior to making asinine assumptions that can be disproven by a simple search of opposing views of Atonement.

There is a popular level book, The Nature of the Atonement: Four Views that may help illustrate other ideas you apparently do not know exist. These are not new views, but may be outside of your tradition.

Good luck. Prepare yourself, learn a bit more outside your tradition, and then lets have a good conversation.

JonC

 

What verse are you speaking of (Jesus sweating great drops of blood")?

 

Deuteronomy 21:22-23
“If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.

Are you suggesting that man controls God like a voodoo witch???!!!!! Hang someone and they are cursed by God.

I think you may need to study a bit more here. Hanging did not make one cursed but was a sign Israel had found the guy guilty of such a crime as to be cursed of God.

Read Deuteronomy 21. Then read Psalm 22 right afterwards. Who estermen Jesus stricken and cursed? Hint - the wicked men for whom He died....not God.

Try again.

 

Figures you would refuse to rephrase to make your question center on God and use biblical language instead of man-centered. That is why I called your question philosophy rather than theology. You look to man in your questions and pretend the answer you imagine is of God.

I know you will object but - What does Scripture say?

1. There is no spiritual life ourside of Christ (you add "except Adam")

2. Spiritual life is everlasting (you add "except with Adam")

3. Spiritual life is God's Spirit in us by which He causes obedience (you add "except with Adam")

4. Christ IS that Life (you add "except with Adam" indicating God died in Adam).

5. Scripture says God made Adam a living soul and contrasts this with Christ a life giving Spirit (you add "but Adam was also spiritually alive")

Get the picture. ALL you have is the philosophical idea Adam had to have been alive in order to be spiritually dead. But Scripture presents Adam (natural man) as simply not having a spirit that is spiritually alive. Was Adam created this way? If James 3 is correct, then yes, he was. He was created "of the flesh" and not "of the spirit" and even Adam needed to be born again as evidenced by Adam eating the fruit.

Your "what if's" and "how was Adam before he sinned" IS philosophy by definition. Stop trying to wiggle out of it and pretend it's theology. It is not. It's humanistic philosophy - period. It is trying to go around Christ and God's revelation to discover other "truths".

There is Icon and there is Scripture.

Your idea that Christ who IS the spiritual Life, God's own Spirit in us, was in Adam and Adam experienced His death is nonsense.

Contrary to your narrative Scripture teaches that spiritual life is "Christ in us". God is not inept.

Think about Who this Life is (not your philosophy about what this life is but Who Scripture say IS this Life before you trample over God by claiming He died when Adam sinned.

And MAKE NO MISTAKE Icon - when you claim one is alive spiritually you are claiming God's work described in Ezekiel applies to them (as Paul put it, "Christ in us"). When you claim this was "undone" then you make God a liar. Spiritual life is everlasting because God is that Life.

 

No. Read the passage. It meant the criminal committed a paticular set of crimes and were considered cursed of God because of the sins committed. Israel made the derermination based on the offense.

Your better argument would be that Christ became a curse for us. At least there you are not committing a logical fallacy. I suppose the only problem would be that I actually agree Christ became a curse for us. I even belueve Christ suffered the wages of sin, although he never sinned.

Nice try, though.

 

I did not read seven questions asked. (I don't know what you are talking about). I am on a phone and when the post looks to be rambling I skim over it.

Ask them (just the questions, skip the diatribe) and I will answer. I only answered the one by having Scripture address the error.

(And one color, preferably black. I usually skip over the words not in black.....exceot for Jesus 'cause we all know He used red ink).

 

1]Did Adam not have a spirit? Scripture teaches that whatever Adam was he did not possess “spiritual life”. I would say that Adam had a human spirit, but not what the Bible calls spiritual life (i.e., the indwelling of God). Many have debated the meaning of “soul and spirit”. I tend to shy away from this philosophy and stick to the Bible. (see 1 Corinthians 15; James 3; Romans 6, 8; 1 John 4; John 6,8, 11, 14, and 17).

2]Did Adam not have a soul? Yes, Adam had a soul. (see Deuteronomy 4, Psalm 61, Jeremiah 6; Joshua 23; and 1 Corinthians 15)

3] If Adam had a spirit, pre-fall was it a dead spirit? Not applicable. Per Scripture Adam had what it was to be man, but not “spiritual life” as defined by the Bible (see the answer to the first question along with the passages noted)

4] Are you suggesting God created man with a dead spirit/soul? No. I am suggesting that God gave Adam the breath of life and made Adam a living soul. Adam was, however, did not merit in himself the glory of God (Adam’s state did not equate to Spiritual Life as defined in the Bible). Adam was created as man. This state of creation is evidenced by how Adam behaved under God’s command (see James 3; John 11, 14; and 1 Corinthians 15).

5] If Adam had a "spirit/soul" that was alive and able to commune with God, Did any EVENT happen that changed the status of the non material part of Adam, his spirit, or soul? Adam did not have a “spirit/soul”. Adam did have a soul. But Scripture does not define “spiritual life” or “of the Spirit” as “having a spirit/soul. What Scripture tells us is that there was a change in Adam. He became “like God” in knowing good and evil. Scripture does not speak of a change in Adam’s nature or as Adam dying spiritually (Biblically this would be God dying in Adam or, at best, Adam defeating God as the Spirit worked to do good and Adam chose evil).

6] is there any event that left Adam with a dead spirit? Not biblically. There are a few philosophical ideas out there about two human natures (a pre-fall nature and a post-fall nature). But the Bible does not actually speak of these theories. The Bible presents possessing spiritual life as Christ dwelling in that person and God putting His Spirit in that person. So if we stick to the Bible the answer is simply that God did not create Adam a spiritual being, but a human being that would need to be reborn (like a seed that must fall to the ground to become what it was ultimately meant to become). (see 1 Corinthians 15; Genesis 3, James 3)


7] how are ALL MEN spiritually dead? Natural man is not created “in Christ”. Christ IS the Life. Adam was created “of the flesh”. Adam is the representative of natural man where as Christ a life giving Spirit. Spiritual life is Christ living in us. (John 1, 3; 1 Corinthians 15; 2 Corinthians 13 Romans 5, 8)


Do you define "spiritual life" as "Christ living in us" (Romans 8)?