preacher4truth
Active Member
Exactly. :thumbs:
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Spiritually dead, yet not guilty?
- Thread starter webdog
- Start date
Exactly. :thumbs:
Because he is a sinner and a satisfactory payment credited to his account has not been made. Not believing doesn't change the reason man has the sentence of death.
When he believes, he becomes justified and it thus no longer guilty. The payment has been made by Christ on the cross. He is "condemned already" meaning the reason for being condemned is already there. Christ came not to condemn(man is already condemned) but to save.
It will be because the atonement wasn't credited to his account. It was not efficient to him.
"He will die under condemnation" for his sin.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
"Abraham believed and it was credited to his account as righteousness." Thus, what you just said is the exact same answer I gave, actually the answer scripture gave: "Because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." Had he believed righteousness would have been credited to his account.
It's the ONLY reason that he remains under that sentence and goes to hell. I agree that he is born under condemnation, that is not the point I'm debating.
Yes, we are in agreement here.
True and no one has denied that. But he still has that sentence because he's a sinner.
It's like if you were in the court house and I saw you there. I go up and ask you why you are there. You say that you owe $400 for running a stop sign. I say Skan, I'll pay for that. You reject my offer. Why do you owe the $400? Because you ran the stop sign. The original reason is still there. The reason you have to pay it is because you owe it and rejected my offer to pay it for you.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
But he only remains under that sentence because of unbelief, not for lack of God's gracious provision of atonement, love, choice etc.
Try this one instead...
Suppose the judge paid a fine I could never afford to pay and then says to me, "Skan, your fine has been paid in full and you can go free if you'll just admit your wronging and apologize." Instead of admitting anything, I rebel against the Judge and his gracious provision and say, "Forget you!" He sends me to jail.
Why did I go to jail? If you say because I committed the crime and couldn't pay the fine you'd be incorrect because those two hurdles were overcome by the judge. The only reason I went to jail was because I rebelled against his gracious provision and refused to repent.
would in your story the payment be effective to your account?
psalms109:31
Active Member
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Verses like the above takes me to verses like this one
Romans 10:14
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
Until we realize we are sinners in need of Christ, to see Him high and lifted up and us at His feet. We would have no reason to come to Jesus.
Jesus did come to save sinners and which I am the worse and He made us who believe His witnesses and messengers
Alcoholic will never seek help until the first accept they are an alcoholic. You can tell them over and over and they might not believe, but one day something might happen that brings them to realize the help they need and seek it, because they have the message.
When that day comes they will remember the message.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Verses like the above takes me to verses like this one
Romans 10:14
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
Until we realize we are sinners in need of Christ, to see Him high and lifted up and us at His feet. We would have no reason to come to Jesus.
Jesus did come to save sinners and which I am the worse and He made us who believe His witnesses and messengers
Alcoholic will never seek help until the first accept they are an alcoholic. You can tell them over and over and they might not believe, but one day something might happen that brings them to realize the help they need and seek it, because they have the message.
When that day comes they will remember the message.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Well all analogies fall short on some point and since there are no "accounts" in my story this particular point doesn't carry over. The point is that the provision was made. As the synod of Dort said, "No one perishes for lack of atonement." (or something like that)
Calvin said virtually the same thing. The provision for salvation is made for all. The only impediment to being saved is unbelief.
But, for the sake of the argument, let's suppose there is an account and the judge DOES apply the payment for the fine to that account. Now, if he places a condition for my release, such as "repent" (apologize), on me and I refuse to comply there is nothing keeping him from choosing to throw me in the slammer. It's like the analogy of the debtor where the man is originally forgiven a great debt but later when he refuses to forgive a lessor debt the original debt is reinstated. Jesus tells that analogy and then goes on to say, "So it is with your Father in heaven."
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IF Skan is biblical correct, then people perish for their rejection of the truth, so why would the church witness, knowing that brings condemnation to those who reject Christ?
Why not keep them "in the dark' and still reconciled to God?
IF one holds to original Sin though, and that we are born as sinners, than we would still have the obligation to atone to God for the spiritual death we all inherited from Adam!
IF born in state of seperation, then only faith in jesus brings us reconciliation, but problem is sinners cannot do that in and by themselves!
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
They remain under wrath and thus will perish ONLY because of their rejection of the truth. I've told you all a thousand times that I affirm the doctrine of Original Sin. My view is not that complicated and it is very common. In fact, it is consistent with the scholars who wrote the baptist faith and message. You really should know it by now.
convicted1
Guest
Brother, you need to go by the name "hammer", because you are continually nailing it!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Finite man can never repay an infinite God (atone) for the crime committed against Him! This leave Him eternally unpaid and justice stomped on. This is like a judge accepting Bernie Madhoff repaying those he stole millions from with tootsie rolls.
It leaves the sinner in the realm of second death,continuing in sin,and continuing to pay theprice for his sin and rebellion.
I gave my Super Bowl ticket analogy two years ago, I'll give it again.
Suppose I looked up every current member of BB and went out and purchased a ticket for the next Super Bowl for every one of them.
Then I post a thread "Free Super Bowl ticket for every member of BB!"
In the thread I tell all of you I have already purchased a ticket for the next Super Bowl. It is a done deal. Now, if you will simply give me your name and address I will mail it to you for free.
Those who do not believe me will not contact me with their name and address and will not get a ticket, even though it has been paid for.
Those who do believe me and give me their name and address receive the free ticket.
Those who might believe, but never bother to contact me with their personal information will not receive a ticket.
Now, did those who believed and gave me their information earn the gift? NO. I am the one who paid for it, they did no work at all.
Did I provide a ticket for those who did not believe? YES, but they failed to believe me, or were too busy with other things to apply for it.
This is how I see it.
Suppose I looked up every current member of BB and went out and purchased a ticket for the next Super Bowl for every one of them.
Then I post a thread "Free Super Bowl ticket for every member of BB!"
In the thread I tell all of you I have already purchased a ticket for the next Super Bowl. It is a done deal. Now, if you will simply give me your name and address I will mail it to you for free.
Those who do not believe me will not contact me with their name and address and will not get a ticket, even though it has been paid for.
Those who do believe me and give me their name and address receive the free ticket.
Those who might believe, but never bother to contact me with their personal information will not receive a ticket.
Now, did those who believed and gave me their information earn the gift? NO. I am the one who paid for it, they did no work at all.
Did I provide a ticket for those who did not believe? YES, but they failed to believe me, or were too busy with other things to apply for it.
This is how I see it.
he CANNOT pay the price regardless of being in hell for eternity, the finite cannot repay the infinite! This leaves God eternally unpaid for a crime committed against him.
Sure...that is why they stay there...the seperation is the payment for their sin...it keeps on and on.....because they remain that way...
The horrendous part of hell is there is no way out. Otherwise man could pay for sin,[works....like purgatory,to burn off sins]...and the cross would not be the only way....
So when is justice served and God repaid?
I thought you said above man is paying for his sin
Justice is served when the criminal is found guilty and punished for his crime.
Where do you get that God is ever "repaid"? The wages of sin is death. Is that what you mean?
From the levitical system dealing with the atonement.
That is the punishment, but that doesn't deal with restitution. When Christ said it is finished, restitution was completed for mankinds offenses against God.
This is why particular redemption is correct....not all mankind is restored.
At the white throne the final seperation happens.