Sure they do. Since Jesus used a program of His own design.
It is not an either or scenario. Because in your anecdote no one you have come across had made disciples until they met you does not mean having a program was the problem.
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Starting a Men's ministry
- Thread starter milby
- Start date
Sure they do. Since Jesus used a program of His own design.
It is not an either or scenario. Because in your anecdote no one you have come across had made disciples until they met you does not mean having a program was the problem.
Great thanks I will check them out.
What was that program? Could you explain the program Jesus used.
Programs do have a place but they do not solve everything. They do not solve personal issues of a deeper nature.
Too often churches are about many things and personal discipleship is for a small "select" group.
Jesus did not say leave the 99 and go after the one. Jesus did not say have children, but don't disciple them. God equips each person who has children to be a parent and He equips each parent to make disciples.
The arrogance in this statement is staggering. I almost vomited when I saw it. There are other reasons why people (not just men) hate going to church. What about the fact that the Church has wounded and hurt many people very deeply? To tell you the truth, after growing up in an oppressive, moralistic church, and after reading statements like this, I don't blame those who say they love Jesus, but aren't crazy about his followers.
I am a former member of Baucham's former church. He's a solid guy, but I wouldn't trust his teaching on the familiy as far as I could throw him, which isn't far, cause he's a big dude.
The biggest thing that men need to learn is basic Christian theology. Check out Mark Noll's Turning Points. Christian men (and women) are sorely lacking in knowledge of Church history. Don't bother with any male-specific stuff.
Where does that put you? Godly men would not like going to an ungodly church.Does that mean they unregenerate?
Correct me if I am wrong but you appear to believe that if you add the word "program" to something it imposes a lack of intimacy or individual discipleship. If this is the case I must disagree with you. Individual, one on one discipleship is a program. And a discipler can as effectively disciple multiple people as Jesus did as they can single individuals. Jesus discipled twelve.
As a pastor I disciple an entire church both from the pulpit and by way of leading the church to function scripturally.
I am discipling 6 deacons to fulfill their scriptural responsibilities.
I am discipling one on patients at his request.
I am discipling a woman who is about to get a divorce from an unfaithful and abusive non believing husband who wants to work things out.
All of the above is both discipleship and programs.
We need to be careful where it is we lay blame on problems in the church. Programs are not always the problem. The hearts of people always are.
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David Lamb
Well-Known Member
To me , this seems the obvious sort of question to ask and answer before getting into possibly long exchanges, not only on the matter of "programs", but generally. So many times we see on the BB instances where confusion arises because two or more people use the same word or phrase to mean different things.
A recent example of this was the use of the term "free grace" in the thread "Lordship Salvation vs Free Grace"
Actually, it's no different than what the Bible teaches.
Wow. There's some irony for you.
Why do you say this?
Jesus spent time with each individually too. It is not just about intimacy but effectiveness. Jesus met people where they were spiritually. I think you need three ways to be the most effective: individually, small groups, and corporately. I see programs as giving everyone exactly the same thing. I do not see Jesus' interaction with His disciples as always giving each of them exactly the same things all the time. He did not deal with people on a one size fits all approach.
I see programs as dealing with people as much the same thing as putting dishes in a dishwasher. If you do the same thing to all of them, they will come out the same and that is simply not the case. Every person is different and has different issues with God. Some of those cannot be dealt with in a small or large group.
The people I meet with range from zealous doers to zealous intellectuals. We know which one can easily hide in a group setting in a Bible study.
I meet with a pastor's son who thinks reaching people is all about a Bible study. I also meet with another man who is much more about relationships and reaching people, and not so much about studying the Bible. The man who is a pastor's son has failed to reach anyone on a deeper personal level. Apparently he has been taught that preaching is the all important thing. So I am spending time with him to help him through the issues that keep him from reaching people. One of the things I just found out is that by his talking he thinks he is helping people to learn more so I showed him Bloom's taxonomy and pointed out his effectiveness at the cognitive level. So now I am working with him to help him get past some issues that have kept him from reaching people.
I seldom meet with women. That is what women are for. We have the same thing in the church I pastor and the women are meeting with her. The last thig I want is for anyone to think that I have any kind of helping relationship with her. Counseling is one thing, but discipling a lady is quite another.
I think programs are often a part of the problem because they are a one size fits all way of doing things. While programs may be great in certain cases it does little to get down to the root of problems people deal with in their heart. People can hide in groups. It is very hard to hide in a one on one situation. When I teach a small group I do not go around and ask each person to share their problems and give advice to help them. If you have 15 people in a small group and spend five minutes with each person that is 75 min. but only five minutes on each person.
Because of what I have practiced and experienced I disagree. I have seen God use a message to reach the hearts of individuals who then come to know Jesus as Lord and Savior, make decisions to answer God's call on their lives, and any number of other things.
The last time I preached at a youth conference several hundred came forward during the week but I did not follow them up. God used the message to get their attention but the hard work of working with the sheep had to be done at their home.
When I was involved in a prison ministry years ago so many men told me about how they went to church and Sunday School but fell through the cracks. It was much the same story repeated many times.
Most of the people I have met with personally over the years were doing little or nothing in churches before I started meeting with them. They could not point to one person who was making disciples because of their life. While some could say they had led someone to Christ. As I began to ask them about how each one was doing the vast majority had to say that the person was doing very well today. Most of the people I have met with over the tears are pastors, missionaries, and leaders in churches. So much for the effectiveness of programs.
Currently I meet with some other pastors in the area teaching them to make disciples. Every week they discuss with me some of the issues they are faced with and I give them help on what to do. Each of them are trying to turn around dead churches. All of them want their churches to grow but they do not know how to reach people outside of programs.
Effective spiritual reproduction is much more than a call to action.
At the church I am at now I was asked to come in to turn the church around. The first thing I did was to start meeting personally with the most teachable man. He is now reaching men who are reaching men. All in a period of about four months. The church has been plagued with antagonists and troublemakers who had their own ideas. A number of them are graduates of a Bible school. Not one of those graduates is reaching anyone. Yet they continue to tell me how a program would work well. The people that are reaching others and praying for them are those who meet with people personally. They are leading the prayer and outreach groups.
With the leaders we are standing fast on the idea that nobody will lead anything until they prove their leadership by leading at least one person. Those who are not actively reaching others have been put on the shelf now. The people who are reaching people personally have begun to notice how the former "teachers" in the church are not. It was those same people who gave the last pastor trouble and have given me some too. When they do I just ask them to tell me about the people who are living for Jesus Christ because of their life. The answer has been the same from each one.
gb93433 said:
Isn't that a program?
Program.
Program.