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Astralis

New Member
Psalms,

What you're saying is too much. The NT hadn't even been written yet when Jesus said that.

What did Jesus say is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth? The Bible? He didn't even say the OT was, which was written then, he said it was The Church.

[ August 18, 2002, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Astralis ]
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Astralis:
Have we? Teaching has always been correct. Human discipline hasn't. Let's look at what Jesus said. Paul and Christ himself warned us that there would be a few ravenous wolves among Church leaders (Acts 20:29; Matt. 7:15).
T h e "C r i m e s" o f W i l l i a m T y n d a l e . . .
First: He maintains that faith alone justifies.
Second: He maintains that to believe in the forgiveness of sins and to embrace the mercy offered in the Gospel, is enough for salvation.
Third: He avers that human traditions cannot bind the conscience, except where their neglect might occasion scandal.
Fourth: He denies the freedom of the will.
Fifth: He denies that there is any purgatory.
Sixth: He affirms that neither the Virgin nor the Saints pray for us in their own person.
Seventh: He asserts that neither the Virgin nor the Saints should be invoked by us.

In England alone, more than 1,000 people were burned between 1400 and 1557 for the sake of the Gospel. Tyndale?s books and tracts (or "pestilent glosses" as his enemies referred to them) were smuggled into England wrapped in bales of wool or cloth, or sacks of flour by fellow "Lollards".

This is the way the Catholic Church has preserved their idea of "truth," while condemning others for preaching what is the Truth. This is the Catholic's idea of "wolves in sheep's clothing."
DHK
 

Astralis

New Member
That isn't the teaching of the Church. That is discipline.

Again, let's look at what Jesus said. Paul and Christ himself warned us that there would be a few ravenous wolves among Church leaders (Acts 20:29; Matt. 7:15).

BTW, these atrocities goes both ways or do you disagree with this too?
 

Ps104_33

New Member
What did Jesus say is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth? The Bible? He didn't even say the OT was, which was written then, he said it was The Church.
Jesus didnt say that, Paul did. ;)
 

Astralis

New Member
I meant Paul, sorry. Now are you saying that Scripture isn't inspired? You'll do anything to prove your point.

[ August 18, 2002, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Astralis ]
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Astralis:
That isn't the teaching of the Church. That is discipline.
Isn't that the height of hypocrisy? Discipline is based on doctrine (teaching). Without doctrine (as posted above) there would be no discipline. He was disciplined because of his doctrine or teaching. How say you "That isn't the teaching."
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Astralis:
Discipline can be abused.
Again, the Church is not just for the elect.
William Tyndale was obviously one of the elect. He was the one who was largely responsible for giving to us our King James Bible. Who are you to say that he is not one of God's elect? That again is the mark of a cult. Tyndale dared to defy the teaching of the church and was burned at the stake. There was no religious freedom, no soul liberty. That is not discpline; it is uncivilized barbarity. It was Tyndale who held to the Truth of God's Word and died for it. The Catholic Church "disciplined" (sic) him for not agreeing with their heresies. This example shows how the Catholic church does not have the correct interpretation of the Bible, and never did. They killed innocent and God-fearing men.
DHK
 

Astralis

New Member
DHK,

I'm not going to defend some of the leaders of the Catholic Church for the wrong that happened.

Some of the leaders have done wrong, but like Jesus said, that is expected. This does not compromise, at all, the integrity of the Catholic Church.

Just like the local Baptist Church minister here in Houston who was just arrested for sexually abusing boys in his church, shall we cast a millstone around his neck or around all Baptist Churches? If it's Catholic, I know what you would do.

I can also bring up many atrocities by Protestant leaders against Catholics but that doesn't prove anything except that we are sinners.
 

Astralis

New Member
What about the Fundamentalist churches in the South who use the Bible to defend segregation?

They use doctrine against honest, God-fearing, innocent Christians.
 

jasonW*

New Member
Originally posted by Astralis:
I can also bring up many atrocities by Protestant leaders against Catholics but that doesn't prove anything except that we are sinners.
The point is, you can't prove much of anything. You can't prove the CC is the pillar, you can't prove Peter was the first pope and you certainly can't prove that the gates of hell haven't prevailed against the CC. What you are espousing is faith in a heirachy which is unbiblical, belief in a system which adds requirements to salvation and blind adoration to a history which is unChrist-like. I, for one, will not believe in such and organization anymore than I would the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses or Muslims. All those systems fail the test of Christ and Scripture as does the Catholic system.

If you choose to believe this system, go ahead. But don't expect us to stop trying to talk you off that ledge. As Christians, it is our job to see that everyone is aware of the true Christ, the true God. We cannot sit idly by as someone washes themselves with unholy blood just because "someone told them it was right". We, as Christians, must do everything we can to get our brothers and sisters out of all such cults (Mormons, JW, Muslims and Catholics).

The simple fact is you have faith in the system for some reason, some personal reason. That is fine, we might even be able to respect that even though we can't understand it. But for you to twist scripture and Christ to point to the CC as THE church spits in the face of Christ and not only irritates Christians, it makes us foam at the mouth in anger. Don't poke the bear and don't swat the hive.

In Christ,
jason
 

jasonW*

New Member
Originally posted by Astralis:
What about the Fundamentalist churches in the South who use the Bible to defend segregation?

They use doctrine against honest, God-fearing, innocent Christians.
It is reprehensible. What is your point? Oh I know, the common character attack. Well, no one should use a character attack when trying to either defend to proclaim a position so if a some non-catholic did, I am sorry.

Simple fact is, we are all sinners, but the burden of prove is upon catholics to prove that their CC is the pillar and that the gates of hell have not prevailed.

In Christ,
jason
 

Astralis

New Member
Simple fact is, we are all sinners...
Good. We're in agreement.

The burden of prove is upon catholics to prove that their CC is the pillar and that the gates of hell have not prevailed.
I think it would be news for most Catholics to learn that the Gates of Hell have prevailed against His Church nullifying Jesus' promise.

Perhaps you can show how this has happened, then we can move from there.
 

Dualhunter

New Member
Originally posted by Astralis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Simple fact is, we are all sinners...
Good. We're in agreement.

The burden of prove is upon catholics to prove that their CC is the pillar and that the gates of hell have not prevailed.
I think it would be news for most Catholics to learn that the Gates of Hell have prevailed against His Church nullifying Jesus' promise.

Perhaps you can show how this has happened, then we can move from there.
</font>[/QUOTE]You're assuming that the Catholic interpretation of that verse is correct.
 

CatholicConvert

New Member
What? Is there some secret meaning we Catholics are unaware of?

Suppose YOU interpret it for us. I'd like to see it how it should really read.

Cordially in disagreement,

Brother Ed
 

Dualhunter

New Member
Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
What? Is there some secret meaning we Catholics are unaware of?

Suppose YOU interpret it for us. I'd like to see it how it should really read.

Cordially in disagreement,

Brother Ed
The Catholic church's interpretation is based on the faulty belief that it is the Church, but the Church is the body of believers in Christ (ie. if you are in Christ you are in the Church as opposed to if you are Catholic you are in the Church), it is not an organization of this world as the Catholic church is. The Gospel is still being preached 2000 years after Christ, but the Catholic church is not the one preaching it. Since the Gospel of Christ is still being preached by believers in Christ, the gates of hell have not prevailled over the Church, though it can be said that they have prevailed over the Roman Catholic church.
 

Ps104_33

New Member
Once again it all boils down to semantics. All our terms have different meanings. To a Protestant(or a Baptist) the Church is an autonomous body of believers. To a Catholic the Church is a body of men in black located in Rome that tells them what and how to think. A protestant prays to God and a Catholis says prayers to God. Grace, Justification, sanctification, priest, etc. all mean different things.
 

sov. grace

New Member
You all are mixed up. Read your Bible.The church began with John the Baptist. It is the REAL BRIDE OF CHRIST, not a worldly Babylonian harlot which worships idols and following after the traditions and doctrine of men. Revelation 17 the entire chapter, especially verse 9. Doth not Rome set upon seven hills. And what whore hath made herself drunken with the blood of the saints and espoused the whorish doctrines of Baal or Babylon more than Rome. Vs.16 Be assured this whore shall fall for broad is the way that leadeth unto destruction and many there be that go in there at. Might does not make right, nor just because a large number espouse a certain belief does it make it true. Scripture and Scripture alone.
 

Astralis

New Member
Sov. Grace,

Nice, but you'll have a hard time finding an intelligent Protestant to believe in your myths.

You should find more persuasive arguments to attack Catholics rather than from Jack Chick comic books.
 
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