Still waiting on a answer....

[skypair]

What is my private interpretation? Could you please post what I have said this means?

Well, I offered private interpretation as an alternative to your seeming inability to understand John. My real concern (knowing your theology) was that you knew but were trying to steer the discussion into your idea that the gospel hasn't gone to the whole world but only to the "elect." And I would have just said that but I was trying to answer your question sincerely as I could.

Perhaps my "editorializing" was out of line. Sorry.

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

By the way, how many verses do Calvinists find 'interesting'?

Romans 9:13-9:23, a couple verses in John 6 and 8, a few of the verses in the Psalms, a couple snippets from Ephesians.

There are over 31,000 verses in the Bible, how many support your theology? 25, 50, 75, 100, 200? I suspect you will say "31,000". I would ask, then why do we only hear (over and over again) the same few verses?

Lol Blammo. I'm guilty of saying much of the time "I love this verse of scripture". I love all of scripture... even those which teach human responsibility.

 

[npetreley]

By the way, how many verses do Calvinists find 'interesting'?

All of them. However, I find this one particularly interesting because it says "the Gospel is veiled [to whom?] to those who are perishing".

This raises a lot of questions for me. Aren't we all perishing before we're saved? So it is speaking of everyone? The context implies that it isn't speaking of everyone. Why are these particular people perishing? Because the Gospel is veiled to them? Or is the Gospel veiled to them because they're perishing? And so on...

 

[reformedbeliever]

Certainly not that verse!

Why put a veil over a corpses heart or eyes?

The reason they are a corpse is because the veil was already there.

 

[Blammo]

All of them. However, I find this one particularly interesting because it says "the Gospel is veiled [to whom?] to those who are perishing".

This raises a lot of questions for me. Aren't we all perishing before we're saved? So it is speaking of everyone? The context implies that it isn't speaking of everyone. Why are these particular people perishing? Because the Gospel is veiled to them? Or is the Gospel veiled to them because they're perishing? And so on...

Did you read the next verse?

 

[webdog]

The reason they are a corpse is because the veil was already there.

Well...if the veil was already there, why was it put there in the first place? If we are born "dead", why the need for a veil?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Well...if the veil was already there, why was it put there in the first place?

Ummm........ cause the Potter has the right.

 

[webdog]

Good non answer

 

[reformedbeliever]

Good non answer

If what the Bible says is a non answer... I'm sorry. Would you like me to make one up for you?

 

[webdog]

I don't recall the Potter "making" the clay...but forming the clay that was already there. You seem to think the potter created the clay for destruction, when the text states simply He formed what was already there....some for honor and some for dishonor. The "why" and "how" is where we disagree. This has nothing to do with "veiling" in the first place, and that text (potter) was not in reference to "veiling".

 

[johnp.]

Why put a veil over a corpses heart or eyes?

Why hide the tree of life and put a guard on it? Is it a case of dead men walking webdog? ...who said the veil was over the Israelite's eyes? LA 3:65 Put a veil over their hearts, and may your curse be on them!

Well...if the veil was already there, why was it put there in the first place?

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Gen 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

So if our gospel be hid it be also guarded by one with a point and a mark to make if any approach the tree of life alone.

john.

 

[johnp.]

By the way, how many verses do Calvinists find 'interesting'?

The bible is the greatest story ever told.

I would ask, then why do we only hear (over and over again) the same few verses?

The ones we use are not heard why do more Blammo?

john.

 

[webdog]

Why hide the tree of life and put a guard on it?

I don't recall the tree being "hidden"...but guarded. Why guarded? Because these "dead" people could walk up to it and eat of it's fruit. Why guard anything from a corpse?

who said the veil was over the Israelite's eyes? LA 3:65 Put a veil over their hearts, and may your curse be on them!

Does the text say "eyes" or "hearts"? Who was doin the talking in La. 3:65?

So if our gospel be hid it be also guarded by one with a point and a mark to make if any approach the tree of life alone.

Here's this whole "hid" thing again. It does NOT say the tree was hidden, nor is the Gospel ever hidden.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I don't recall the Potter "making" the clay...but forming the clay that was already there. You seem to think the potter created the clay for destruction, when the text states simply He formed what was already there....some for honor and some for dishonor. The "why" and "how" is where we disagree. This has nothing to do with "veiling" in the first place, and that text (potter) was not in reference to "veiling".

You asked, I answered with a biblical answer webdog. Sorry if you did not like it.

Yes, the potter made the clay also in this instance. God made the dirt.

I never said that the potter created the clay for destruction. Where did you get that? We all come from the same lump of clay. God creates some as vessels of honor, some not.

Where does the text state that God used what was already there? I fail to see that in the text. Again webdog, God made the clay too. See Genesis.

Yeah you are right. We disagree on the why and how. It seems we disagree on the fact that God made to clay also.

 

[webdog]

Anyone can pull a "biblical answer" out of context to answer another question. This thread is not about Romans, clay or potters.

 

[skypair]

Just curious. By what means? Through their conscience? Through the evidence of creation?

Yes, both and more. I believe there are "7 spirits of God" gone out unto all the world, Rev 5:6. They are the 7 dispensations or revelations of God regarding Himself. They have operated throughout His-tory but in varying degrees of emphasis.

I agree that observing creation can lead to the suggestion of a creator. But how does it lead to a knowledge of the gospel?

Good question. Here would be my summation of it -- man sees God in creation or His spirits. Man, by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, is convicted of his own failures toward God. Man turns to God's light (whatever God gives him) and God grants once and forever "justification" (which ends in eternal salvation when one sees Christ).

If the Romans 1 passages mean what you say they mean, then let's bring home all the missionaries, for we have no need for them, because everybody already has the gospel.

That is true -- however they cannot enter Christ's kingdom in this lifetime if they don't hear the gospel of this church age. And they are quite easily persuaded by Satan and self to "draw back" (Heb 10:38) without ever being believing and being justified. Rom says they are "without excuse" but that doesn't mean that they don't have to pursue ("seek" after) the light they have been given.

If the gospel truth is known to all men, then we really don't need preachers and sermons and personal witnessing any more.

Rom 1 again tells us that when they knew God, they should have 1) glorified Him, 2) thanked Him, and 3) not become foolish in their vain imaginations. This is, to me, the essence of "drawing back," isn't it? He seeks us but we need to seek Him as well. Preaching doesn't make sense but it brings truth to a fine point called a "decision."

Yes, I know Jesus commanded us to preach the gospel. Yes, I know Paul said in his first letter to the church at Corinth that it pleased God to save through the foolishness of preaching. So.......uh.......well, I guess that makes my point.

Which is the hyper-Calvinist motivation for mission, plain and simple, right? They don't have to convert them -- they just have to identify the "elect" so the "elect" can live a better life, right?

In truth, there is a point of decision that all men must come to regarding what they will do with their "light." So that although ALL hear the gospel and ALL are without excuse, ALL do not choose life, do they? That would be the free will thought.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I think it is very clear - ALL mankind (inclusively and without exception) has a "God awareness" (light that lighteth every man) or a God consciousness. Sin has perverted how man "worships" the "God awearness". This is witnessed throughout all of history when every people group in history worshiped "a diety or dieties" in different (pagen) ways. Sin has perverted the TRUE worship, but this doesn't negate the fact that all men have a "light" of God. Only by the Holy Spirit can we worhsipin in spirit and in truth.

Man perverts, God CONVERTS

I like that, IBF! Got anymore?

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

Anyone can pull a "biblical answer" out of context to answer another question. This thread is not about Romans, clay or potters.

Yes, you do a good job of that. Again, if you do not want a biblical answer, get someone to make one up that appeals to you.

 

[johnp.]

Does the text say "eyes" or "hearts"? Who was doin the talking in La. 3:65?

I asked you who said the veil was over the Israelites eyes? Moses wore it.

Here's this whole "hid" thing again. It does NOT say the tree was hidden, nor is the Gospel ever hidden.

Where is it then? Show me on the map.

john.

 

[webdog]

I like that, IBF! Got anymore?

skypair

Sure :thumbs:

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.

If man is created for destruction, as calvinism implies, what "eternity" has been placed in their hearts...the desire to burn forever?