Still waiting on a answer....

[skypair]

JN 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

They didn't recognize Him as God. That doesn't mean they didn't hear His gospel.

MT 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

"Sevrets of the kingdom" does not mean that the gospel is a secret, friend. You're getting the gospel mixed up with what Paul called the "hidden wisdom" of God which only the "perfect" could understand, 1Cor 2!

2 Cor 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.

Yep. THEY've let the "god of this world blind them." They would see -- Rom 1 says they did see at one time -- but they were blinded by not believing.

skypair

 

[webdog]

Yes, you do a good job of that. Again, if you do not want a biblical answer, get someone to make one up that appeals to you.

You pull a verse out of context to support another verse totally unrelated...and you have the gall to say I do that?
What is that saying about people who live in glass houses?

It's also in the Bible "...there is no God". Can I use that "biblical answer" to support atheism?

 

[Blammo]

The bible is the greatest story ever told.

Amen

The ones we use are not heard why do more Blammo?

Like, for instance, this one?

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This verse usually ends after unbelief when you quote it. Then you go on to say it proves ''God is the author of sin'', which clearly the verse does not say. It says "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he may have mercy upon all."

It is not the verse that we do not hear, it is your interpretation of the verse that we reject.

 

[johnp.]

Anyone can pull a "biblical answer" out of context to answer another question.

Anyone can say that.

If man is created for destruction, as calvinism implies, what "eternity" has been placed in their hearts...the desire to burn forever?

To live forever webdog.

john.

 

[webdog]

I asked you who said the veil was over the Israelites eyes? Moses wore it.

Are you saying God saved HIS people from the egyptians...so He could blind them? Of course you are...you believe God authors sin!

Where is it then? Show me on the map.

:laugh:

 

[webdog]

To live forever webdog.

john.

So are you saying that God did indeed create the reprobate with the desire to live forever? For what purpose?

 

[skypair]

All of them. However, I find this one particularly interesting because it says "the Gospel is veiled [to whom?] to those who are perishing".

This raises a lot of questions for me. Aren't we all perishing before we're saved? So it is speaking of everyone?...

I had the same thought, npeterely.

And we all were -- as the very next verse says -- in "unbelief" before we believed. Ergo, we were all "perishing." To say that only the "perishing" are "veiled" does seem contradictory to the context, doesn't it?

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

You pull a verse out of context to support another verse totally unrelated...and you have the gall to say I do that?
What is that saying about people who live in glass houses?

It's also in the Bible "...there is no God". Can I use that "biblical answer" to support atheism?

Webdog, do I need to go back and show you what you asked?

webdog asked;

Well...if the veil was already there, why was it put there in the first place? If we are born "dead", why the need for a veil?

I answered;

Ummm........ cause the Potter has the right.

It is because God has the right to make any vessel as He sees fit. The veil is there to keep them from seeing, and is the reason they are a corpse. We are all born with the veil. He removes the veil for those that He makes unto honor.

I'm sure you don't like the answer, but that does not surprise me. You can say that anything is taken out of context... but that does not mean it is so. You just don't like the answer webdog. Find someone to give you a non biblical answer.

 

[skypair]

Sure :thumbs:

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.

If man is created for destruction, as calvinism implies, what "eternity" has been placed in their hearts...the desire to burn forever?

There is GREAT hope for man in that verse, as you say, web! Everyone has an "inner witness" of God, don't they. We can ALL understand eternal "justice" as soon as we realize that it is wrong for someone else to steal or cheat or harm us, can't we!

That's a good one for Calvinists to ponder when they think that we some people cannot hear or know God.

skypair

 

[webdog]

It is because God has the right to make any vessel as He sees fit. The veil is there to keep them from seeing, and is the reason they are a corpse. We are all born with the veil. He removes the veil for those that He makes unto honor.

So you are basically saying God does things that make no sense to even God. If God creates "corpses" and then veils them to keep them from seeing the Gosple, He must not have that much confidence in Himself or what He has created. This is foolishness.

God being able to do whatever He wishes (sovereignty) does not mean it actually supports your position that He does things that make no sense. Something an elder at my church once said really stuck..."God is smart". God doing what you state He does doesnt' make Him very smart, now, does it?

 

[reformedbeliever]

So you are basically saying God does things that make no sense to even God. If God creates "corpses" and then veils them to keep them from seeing the Gosple, He must not have that much confidence in Himself or what He has created. This is foolishness.

No, that is what you are saying.

 

[johnp.]

skypair.

They didn't recognize Him as God. That doesn't mean they didn't hear His gospel.

If they didn't recognise Him as God then they didn't hear the message did they?

"Sevrets of the kingdom" does not mean that the gospel is a secret, friend. You're getting the gospel mixed up with what Paul called the "hidden wisdom" of God which only the "perfect" could understand, 1Cor 2!

Wow! Strange to think Peter and that lot being perfect enough to understand God's secrets. Whatever next?

MT 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Now you are saying the Jews were perfect because Jesus had to speak in parables so they could not understand God's secrets that way?

Yep. THEY've let the "god of this world blind them." They would see -- Rom 1 says they did see at one time -- but they were blinded by not believing.

That was answered by reformed wasn't it? The conscience is such a givaway isn't it?

PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
Rom 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Rom 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...

From the time of Moses and the Israelites the world was more or less abandoned to Hell with a few noted exceptions.

john.

 

[webdog]

No, that is what you are saying.

webdog asked;

Quote:
Well...if the veil was already there, why was it put there in the first place? If we are born "dead", why the need for a veil?


I answered;

Quote:
Ummm........ cause the Potter has the right.

Sounds exactly what you are saying.

 

[Blammo]

It is because God has the right to make any vessel as He sees fit. The veil is there to keep them from seeing, and is the reason they are a corpse. We are all born with the veil. He removes the veil for those that He makes unto honor.

I'm sure you don't like the answer, but that does not surprise me. You can say that anything is taken out of context... but that does not mean it is so. You just don't like the answer webdog. Find someone to give you a non biblical answer.

RB, I have heard you and others say God has chosen some to save, and the others were not chosen for hell, but simply passed over. However, this argument you are making seems to suggest that God actually fears that some will get saved against His will, so He must blind them to keep it from happening. In other words, He HAS chosen some for hell, and has to make sure they get there.

It's actually a very wierd argument. Man has the abiblity to hear and understand the gospel, so, God must put a veil on their eyes to protect Himself against them getting saved.

Maybe I am missing part of your argument.

 

[reformedbeliever]

RB, I have heard you and others say God has chosen some to save, and the others were not chosen for hell, but simply passed over. However, this argument you are making seems to suggest that God actually fears that some will get saved against His will, so He must blind them to keep it from happening. In other words, He HAS chosen some for hell, and has to make sure they get there.

It's actually a very wierd argument. Man has the abiblity to hear and understand the gospel, so, God must put a veil on their eyes to protect Himself against them getting saved.

Maybe I am missing part of your argument.

Blammo, He has chosen to not remove the veil from some, or to open the ears or hearts of some. Mark 4: 1. He began to teach again by the sea. And such a very large crowd gathered to Him that He got into a boat in the sea and sat down; and the whole crowd was by the sea on the land.
2. And He was teaching them many things in parables, and was saying to them in His teaching,
3. "Listen {to this!} Behold, the sower went out to sow;
4. as he was sowing, some {seed} fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate it up.
5. "Other {seed} fell on the rocky {ground} where it did not have much soil; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of soil.
6. "And after the sun had risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
7. "Other {seed} fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop.
8. "Other {seeds} fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold."
9. And He was saying, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
10. As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, {began} asking Him {about} the parables.
11. And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,
12. so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."

This is called the Messianic secret Blammo. Jesus plainly says that some are not allowed to hear in a saving way.

edited to add; He has not chosen some for hell, but has chosen some for salvation. He allows the rest to remain blind. You might say that he has chosen some for hell, but I say that He has left them to their blindness. He has that right. He is the Creator and may dispose of His creation as He sees fit. I can not appologize for God. He is big enough to take care of Himself. Just showing you what this verse of scripture says in Mark 4.

 

[Blammo]

Blammo, He has chosen to not remove the veil from some, or to open the ears or hearts of some. Mark 4: 1. He began to teach again by the sea. And such a very large crowd gathered to Him that He got into a boat in the sea and sat down; and the whole crowd was by the sea on the land.
2. And He was teaching them many things in parables, and was saying to them in His teaching,
3. "Listen {to this!} Behold, the sower went out to sow;
4. as he was sowing, some {seed} fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate it up.
5. "Other {seed} fell on the rocky {ground} where it did not have much soil; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of soil.
6. "And after the sun had risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
7. "Other {seed} fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop.
8. "Other {seeds} fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold."
9. And He was saying, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
10. As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, {began} asking Him {about} the parables.
11. And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,
12. so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."

This is called the Messianic secret Blammo. Jesus plainly says that some are not allowed to hear in a saving way.

edited to add; He has not chosen some for hell, but has chosen some for salvation. He allows the rest to remain blind. You might say that he has chosen some for hell, but I say that He has left them to their blindness. He has that right. He is the Creator and may dispose of His creation as He sees fit. I can not appologize for God. He is big enough to take care of Himself. Just showing you what this verse of scripture says in Mark 4.

That is way better than what I thought you were saying. The idea that some unbelieving sinner, deserving of hell (as we all were), does not get the benifit of grace, and is not enabled to hear and understand the gospel, is a whole lot easier to accept than what I thought you were saying.

 

[MB]

This was in the OP of another thread that is now closed. It has been like pulling teeth to get somone for the free will side to say what John 1:9 means...yet they like to claim it as "their verse".



ALL men are given light. or..lighteth.

This word "lighteth"....what does it mean in context?




King James Version
1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

The true light is Jesus Christ and He gives His ligth to every man. You seem to think this supports your view as a Calvinist. Although all Calvinist believe that everyman is totaly depraved and there is no good in Him. Isn't the light of Christ Good? And if Christ has given it to all men then all men must have some part of that light with in, Right?
MB

 

[reformedbeliever]

That is way better than what I thought you were saying. The idea that some unbelieving sinner, deserving of hell (as we all were), does not get the benifit of grace, and is not enabled to hear and understand the gospel, is a whole lot easier to accept than what I thought you were saying.

I'm not sure what you thought I was saying. I disagree with John in that God predestines some to hell. There are several verses of scripture that seem to say that He does though. I'll list them if you like. Jude 4 is one of many.

I prefer that God leaves some people to themselves, and changes some to be able to hear and see in a saving way. I certainly do understand where John is coming from however. I just don't like it... and when tested with other scripture, seems to *maybe* not be double predestination. I tend to waver back and forth on the issue of double predestination.

My heart of hearts wants God to save them all. I intend to ask Him why He didn't some day. This problem is not only a Calvinist problem however.... as has been pointed out many times... just not addressed by the free will side. God allows people to come into existence knowing they would never believe. Does He predestine them to hell by doing such?

 

[webdog]

Blammo, He has chosen to not remove the veil from some, or to open the ears or hearts of some. Mark 4: 1. He began to teach again by the sea. And such a very large crowd gathered to Him that He got into a boat in the sea and sat down; and the whole crowd was by the sea on the land.
2. And He was teaching them many things in parables, and was saying to them in His teaching,
3. "Listen {to this!} Behold, the sower went out to sow;
4. as he was sowing, some {seed} fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate it up.
5. "Other {seed} fell on the rocky {ground} where it did not have much soil; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of soil.
6. "And after the sun had risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
7. "Other {seed} fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop.
8. "Other {seeds} fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold."
9. And He was saying, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
10. As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, {began} asking Him {about} the parables.
11. And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,
12. so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."

This is called the Messianic secret Blammo. Jesus plainly says that some are not allowed to hear in a saving way.

edited to add; He has not chosen some for hell, but has chosen some for salvation. He allows the rest to remain blind. You might say that he has chosen some for hell, but I say that He has left them to their blindness. He has that right. He is the Creator and may dispose of His creation as He sees fit. I can not appologize for God. He is big enough to take care of Himself. Just showing you what this verse of scripture says in Mark 4.

Does your Bible end at verse 12?

Mar 4:13 And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?
Mar 4:14The sower sows the word.
Mar 4:15And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them.
Mar 4:16And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy.
Mar 4:17And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.
Mar 4:18And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word,
Mar 4:19but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
Mar 4:20But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."

This "messianic secret" hardly says some are not allowed to hear! Not even close! In fact it shows that all do hear, and it's what they do with the truth that determines the outcome.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Does your Bible end at verse 12?

Mar 4:13 And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?
Mar 4:14The sower sows the word.
Mar 4:15And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them.
Mar 4:16And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy.
Mar 4:17And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.
Mar 4:18And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word,
Mar 4:19but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
Mar 4:20But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."

This "messianic secret" hardly says some are not allowed to hear! Not even close!

Webdog says so!