strapless dresses

[Zaac]

Exactly. I'd say that people under 35 or so are inured to the modesty issues a lot of folks on BB struggle with. Men will see a woman with a bare mid riff and it doesn't create lust because they've been seeing it for 20 years.

I think some are forgetting how lust works. We didn't get the porn problem we have in so many churches by men looking at women and not lusting.

Porn is a problem because the men have seen a little and want to see more. Modesty standards must be upheld by the folks in the church.

Why would anyone want their kids to think that some of this stuff they see folks wearing to school is okay?

 

[Zaac]

Regarding dress, we have some very good ideas of what not to do, but it's hard to set an exact line.
So inevitably people are just not going to agree on just where to set the line, even within those who believe in adhering to Christian guidelines. Which I trust all who have posted in this thread believe in.

Even within my church, wherein people dress pretty conservatively, there are differences of opinion. I've seen some members wear clothes I personally would not be comfortable, psychologically speaking, in. And the clothes I'm speaking of aren't even that "bad", considering there's way way way worse in our culture.

My dad used to talk about how "100 years ago" my mom would have been kicked out of some towns for the dress she wore, because it went above her ankles.
Things simply vary from time and culture, and not everyone is turned on by the same things either.


I'm not one to hold it against someone for having somewhat differing views on what is and is not acceptable for dress than I do.

Quest, I think we should always ask ourselves, if I were standing in front of a Holy God, would I dress like this? It will often give us pause.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Quest, I think we should always ask ourselves, if I were standing in front of a Holy God, would I dress like this? It will often give us pause.

Thing is the answer's not the same for everyone. Our answers to that question are based on our own perceptions and preconceived notions, which may or may not be correct.

In the church I grew up in, pants on women were unacceptable. A Bible study lesson I once read that wearing pants directs the eye the the crotch, and therefore girls and women ought to wear dresses.
Guess what I wear on a daily basis now? Pants. Actually studies conclude that women wearing dresses are more likely to get raped than women wearing pants. (Because rapists are looking for clothing that's easy and quick to remove.)

And if the thing about pants directing one's eyes to the crotch were true, then as a completely straight female I'd be looking at mens' crotches all the time. Whoo.

 

[InTheLight]

I think some are forgetting how lust works. We didn't get the porn problem we have in so many churches by men looking at women and not lusting.

Porn is a problem because the men have seen a little and want to see more. Modesty standards must be upheld by the folks in the church.

Why would anyone want their kids to think that some of this stuff they see folks wearing to school is okay?

You seem to speak to what other people are thinking quite a bit. For example:

Their intent may not have been to cause folks to lust, but I'm sure it did.

Most of the folks who disagree struggle with the lust and just pretend like they don't.

I didn't say it was OK for teens or women to wear revealing clothing. I said that most men under the age of 35 have seen it all their lives, are inured to it, and it's just not lust inducing for them.

 

[corndogggy]

What do societal norms have to do with Christian women and modesty? they shouldn't be dressing like that at school either.

The little old ladies thought it was embarassing because it was unGodly and a distraction to worship.

Societal norms has everything to do with it. One of the questions posed earlier which I think you didn't understand was in regards to tribal villages in hot third world African countries. It is perfectly normal for women to walk around with no shirt on. The men think nothing of it. In fact, they have gone on record saying they don’t understand the obsession that western men have with breasts, because to them it is about as natural as a bull sucking on a cow teat.

So the question is, are these tribal women being immodest and sinning? The old ladies you mentioned are up in arms because of a form fitting blouse, so wouldn’t this be worse? It is all about societal norms, there is no universal rule for what is modest or not.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Societal norms has everything to do with it. One of the questions posed earlier which I think you didn't understand was in regards to tribal villages in hot third world African countries. It is perfectly normal for women to walk around with no shirt on. The men think nothing of it. In fact, they have gone on record saying they don’t understand the obsession that western men have with breasts, because to them it is about as natural as a bull sucking on a cow teat.

So the question is, are these tribal women being immodest and sinning? The old ladies you mentioned are up in arms because of a form fitting blouse, so wouldn’t this be worse? It is all about societal norms, there is no universal rule for what is modest or not.

In their own society they are not.

 

[corndogggy]

In their own society they are not.

So in other words, its all about societal norms.

 

[evenifigoalone]

So in other words, its all about societal norms.

Pretty much. Our ideas on what is modest or not are based entirely on the society we grew up in, after all. Although for those who grew up in Christian homes these ideas are taught to us as being straight from the Bible, the Bible seems to have little to nothing to say specifically on form-fitting clothes and the like. Which is a big reason why there are so many different opinions on whether it's acceptable or not in the first place.

 

[Thousand Hills]

I didn't say it was OK for teens or women to wear revealing clothing. I said that most men under the age of 35 have seen it all their lives, are inured to it, and it's just not lust inducing for them.

Your post made me think of this article:

I remember reading an article a few years ago where an entertainment writer was asking, “What’s next?” She wrote about how television and movies had ramped up the sexual content on the screen, first by way of innuendo and then by way of explicit display. She suggested that the next frontier might just be sexual violence, and it seems that she was right. http://www.challies.com/articles/televisions-rape-epidemic

Sadly most of us are desensitized to so much. As we go through the process of sanctification though we should be finding offensive those things that God finds offensive, doesn't mean we can change the world around us necessarily, but we can respond by teaching the next generation, etc.

 

[corndogggy]

the Bible seems to have little to nothing to say specifically on form-fitting clothes and the like.

You're exactly right, it has virtually nothing to say about the subject at all, there is that one verse (1 timothy 2:9), and people try like mad to explain it away. Without it, I'm not aware of anything at all.

 

[Zaac]

You seem to speak to what other people are thinking quite a bit. For example:





I didn't say it was OK for teens or women to wear revealing clothing. I said that most men under the age of 35 have seen it all their lives, are inured to it, and it's just not lust inducing for them.

And I say based upon the porn problem in the church and out of it,folks aren't as inured to it as you might think.

 

[corndogggy]

To me, this whole question is more about whether you look trashy in general and less about whether the lack of a strap will trigger a male response. You can look elegant in strapless dresses but look like a total piece of trash while wearing items that seemingly follow the accepted but non-existent hard rules of modesty. It's all about societal norms and virtually nothing to do with religion. The fact that somebody is a Christian or not has nothing to do with whether you will or should look like a hoochie at the prom in some people's eyes. Sorry, but you will look like such a thing to someone out there, and unless you're wearing a Sasquatch/Bigfoot/burqa suit, I guarantee that somebody is going to check you out.

 

[Zaac]

You're exactly right, it has virtually nothing to say about the subject at all, there is that one verse (1 timothy 2:9), and people try like mad to explain it away. Without it, I'm not aware of anything at all.

The Bible doesn't have to speak specifically to form fitting clothes or gstrings or short shorts or anything immodest when it has spoken to modesty.

Christian modesty should not be based in societal norms any more than anything else of Christian morality should be based in societal norms.

Man should live on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, not out of what societal norms are. And GOD has spoken to modesty.

I do wonder why in so many areas we tend to look for ways to trend toward society instead of trending toward setting ourselves apart in holiness?

 

[evenifigoalone]

Don't think it's fair to blame the legitimate problems that exist on women. (And women watch porn, too.) Sure, it's not helping, but like I said...no one is arguing for no standards at all.
Neither am I fond of dehumanizing men into some hormone driven beast who can't control his actions.

 

[corndogggy]

The Bible doesn't have to speak specifically to form fitting clothes or gstrings or short shorts or anything immodest when it has spoken to modesty.

GOD has spoken to modesty.

Please enlighten me as to what all the Bible says about modestly as it specifically relates to clothing and dress.

 

[evenifigoalone]

The Bible doesn't have to speak specifically to form fitting clothes or gstrings or short shorts or anything immodest when it has spoken to modesty.

Christian modesty should not be based in societal norms any more than anything else of Christian morality should be based in societal norms.

Man should live on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, not out of what societal norms are. And GOD has spoken to modesty.

I do wonder why in so many areas we tend to look for ways to trend toward society instead of trending toward setting ourselves apart in holiness?

Actually, the verse in Timothy on modest is not referring to sexually promiscuous clothing. If you read the whole thing of I Timothy 2:9, it says not to dress in a showy, rich manner.

We've given the word "modesty" in that verse our own meaning in our Christian subculture today.

To be clear, I'm not saying this means we should simply dress in as little to no clothing as we want. My views on proper dress in this society are still pretty conservative, actually.
I'm saying the verse is taken out of context and the Bible puts far less emphasis on these things than most Christians seem to think.

 

[corndogggy]

Actually, the verse in Timothy on modest is not referring to sexually promiscuous clothing. If you read the whole thing of I Timothy 2:9, it says not to dress in a showy, rich manner.

If you pay attention to the entire verse of 1 Timothy 2:9, it's not referring to dressing in a revealing manner.

Lets go elsewhere then.

1 Peter 3
3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.


Which part of this says that prom dresses are perfectly cool? Have you ever even been to a prom or seen people before it? Every girl there dresses in a showy, rich manner. That's the entire point of it.

 

[evenifigoalone]

1 Peter 3
3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.


Which part of this says that prom dresses are perfectly cool?

I tend to keep in mind that Paul was often speaking to and addressing specific issues.
Likely there were both rich and poor people at Timothy's church. Dressing up to show off how rich you are isn't exactly Christ-like.

At prom, everyone is dressed fancily and few people would have a hard time affording a nice prom dress. (But then I haven't ever gone shopping for one, so correct me if I'm wrong.:tonofbricks
So I don't think the verse rules out prom dresses. But that's my opinion.

Based on that verse, Menonites don't believe in wearing any clothes that draw attention to you. Like, in the extreme. T-shirts with pictures on them would be out of the question to them, to my understanding.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Which part of this says that prom dresses are perfectly cool? Have you ever even been to a prom or seen people before it? Every girl there dresses in a showy, rich manner. That's the entire point of it.

Never been to a prom myself (I was homeschooled), but saw the pictures of my friends that did on facebook.

 

[corndogggy]

At prom, everyone is dressed fancily and few people would have a hard time affording a nice prom dress. (But then I haven't ever gone shopping for one, so correct me if I'm wrong.:tonofbricks
So I don't think the verse rules out prom dresses. But that's my opinion.

I don't think these two verses has a thing to do with excluding anybody. You can read the commentaries and that isn't what they come up with.

But yes several girls have problem finding a nice prom dress. Often you can find a used one from somebody who feels sorry for you and will negotiate but the typical prom experience isn't exactly affordable to everyone. You can easily spend hundreds of dollars on everything, and thousands is fairly normal.