Submissiveness

[Rooster]

11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Are you saying this scripture is wrong?
The creation of woman is not found untill:

Genesis Chapter2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

2:23 And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

so according to that I still stand by: man to have dimminion over his family, when God created man, he created man for Himself, when he created woman he created woman for man:

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Elnora:
The original post was about a man demanding his wife concerning voting.... I ask for scripture that allows an husband or a wife to demand anything and Diane rightly agreed there are none.

I agree 100%. The husband is not scripturally entitled to demand anything from the spouse, and a demand in regards to the voting issue is simply an abuse of the role of headship. The man, in effect, proves that he is no man at all, if he needs to resort to such.

Voting is an individual right. No spouse many demand that another spouse vote, and no spouse may demand that the other spouse vote in a certain manner. In fact, how one spouse votes is no one else's business, not even the other spouse's. If a spouse shares that info with the other spouse, it's to be considered private and privileged information.

 

[Rooster]

Thats almost what I've been saying all along, a man is head of his house, but not a tyrant dictator, he can demand what ever he wants, but the wifes submition should be voulintrary, not forced, if the wife does not submit, then God will judge her, it is not the husbands job to force her to.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Rooster:
11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Are you saying this scripture is wrong?

The context here is NOT that of creation, but that of relationship.

The creation of woman is not found untill:... Genesis Chapter2:20

If that's correct, then it contradicts Gen1, which has male and female being created in the 6th day. Unless, of course, Gen1 and 2 were not intended to be interpreted hyperliterally, but that opens up a whole can of worms and a completely different topic.

Better here to refrain from hijacking the thread and return to the original topic.

Thats almost what I've been saying all along, a man is head of his house, but not a tyrant dictator, he can demand what ever he wants, but the wifes submition should be voulintrary, not forced, if the wife does not submit, then God will judge her, it is not the husbands job to force her to.

No, the man cannot demand whatever he wants, because a husband is not given scriptural authority to demand at all. Now as far as sumbission, we must also not forget that the husband is also to submit to his wife (scripture says that both are to love as Christ loves, and both are to subit to each other as to Christ). A man submitting to his wife does not negate his headship. Headship, btw, is not authority, it's responsibility. A husband is not given authority to tell his wife "what do to". That's not scirptural headship. Likewise, the wife is not scripturally required to do whatever the husband says. That is not scriptural submission.

[ October 26, 2004, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

[Rooster]

Originally posted by Elnora:
No Rooster I didn't argue against any of the scriptures you just quoted. Read again what I did say.

Well according to how you articulated it, you were questioning the husbands authority, in a blown out kind of way,if that was not what you were saying then please be more clear, not all of us are mind readers.

 

[Elnora]

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Then the bible goes on to explain the details you referenced to creating Eve from Adam's rib. You cannot wrench scripture to fit you ideas. You must intrepret scripture with scripture

 

[Rooster]

scripture says that both are to love as Christ loves, and both are to subit to each other as to Christ

No, Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Is speaking about the unity of belivers, not the husband wife relationship, that begins in verse 22 with wives, submit yourselves unto your husbands...

 

[Rooster]

Then the bible goes on to explain the details you referenced to creating Eve from Adam's rib. You cannot wrench scripture to fit you ideas. You must intrepret scripture with scripture

That is my responce to you.

 

[Rooster]

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

what He is saying is when God created man, woman would be created from man too, but not till Genesis 2

 

[Elnora]

Originally posted by Rooster:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Elnora:
No Rooster I didn't argue against any of the scriptures you just quoted. Read again what I did say.

Well according to how you articulated it, you were questioning the husbands authority, in a blown out kind of way,if that was not what you were saying then please be more clear, not all of us are mind readers. </font>[/QUOTE]Rooster,

I really don't know how to articulate it any clearer. We must conform our thinking to scripture. Not conform the scripture to our way of thinking. When you take God's word and pick and choose the scriptures to fit your ideas, you are not rightly dividing the Word of truth.

 

[Rooster]

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

In this verse God says "Let us make man in our image after our likeness, who is God talking to: us , and our? Gods image is Father , Son, Holy Spirit, mans image is a three part image too, with body, soul, and spirit, so when he says "let them have dominion " that is what he is refering to.

 

[dianetavegia]

Only those demanding love deserve hell or those demanding respect too?

We ALL deserve hell, Elnora. Without Christ's sacrifice... We DESERVE nothing more, was my point, aside from Christ's death on the cross.

I saw it again on a post today... 'I deserve'...

 

[Rooster]

When you take God's word and pick and choose the scriptures to fit your ideas,

I am not, a woman who will blatenly refuse to accept what God is saying, is the only one with the motivation to pick and chose, what the scriptures are saying, what motivation would I have? Its not commanding me to do one thing or the other. You are trying to find a loop hole for sin, and God is not allowing it, plain and simple.

 

[Elnora]

And it goes back to my point that the is no scripture where anyone is to make demands. Spouses, bro's and sisters. Not even pastors.

Christ never demanded we believe on him. He calls us by his Spirit and we in faith answer. Why would we demand (man or woman) obedience of a spouse.

I Cor:13:
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

You cannot give any scripture where it is that a spouse is to give orders, because there are none. But there are a lot of them on preferring one another, submitting one to another, not lording over another. Not thinking ourselves higher than another


Again, I say we must interpret scripture with scripture. Those are the teachings of Christ.

 

[Rooster]

Originally posted by Rooster:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> When you take God's word and pick and choose the scriptures to fit your ideas,

I am not, a woman who will blatenly refuse to accept what God is saying, is the only one with the motivation to pick and chose, what the scriptures are saying, what motivation would I have? Its not commanding me to do one thing or the other. You are trying to find a loop hole for sin, and God is not allowing it, plain and simple. </font>[/QUOTE]Elonore I must apologize for this responce, it was a personal attack twoards you, and I apologize, I don't find it productive to attack anyone on this board, we are here to learn, not to win a war, and for that reason, I need to step away from the computer, since I have been on it all day, and I'm getting hungry, tired, and cranky, so, once again sorry for the attack, I hope it wasn't taken so personal that you can't forgive me, your loving brother in Christ,
Rooster

 

[SaggyWoman]

From Diane:

Saggy, nope, didn't mean you (scripture concerning nagging wives, etc.) but when the issue of YOU being submissive came up, I mentioned that you aren't married. I don't believe women are taught that we have to be submissive to ALL men.

I don't believe I have to be submissive to all men, either. I do believe there is an attitude of submission, though. But I think that goes into relationships, period.

 

[dianetavegia]

Agree Saggy. Christ showed us how we should act toward each other when he washed the feet of his disciples.

Diane

 

[tam_marie]

Sorry I Am Blessed 16 but, Jim is right. God commanded women to obey there husbands. wether or not the wife agrees is obsolete to God. &gt;&gt;&gt;

I don't agree with you on this, God does care what we think.

 

[Elnora]

Rooster, personal attacks cut like a knife. To hear it from believers especially. I know I am not in rebellion. So although you did attack me I know in whom I believe and trust. My concern is my standing in Christ not the approval nor disapproval of men. My husband and I are in one accord with Jesus. I truly appreciate your apology. Consider yourself forgiven.

 

[Elnora]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Only those demanding love deserve hell or those demanding respect too?

We ALL deserve hell, Elnora. Without Christ's sacrifice... We DESERVE nothing more, was my point, aside from Christ's death on the cross.

I saw it again on a post today... 'I deserve'... </font>[/QUOTE]I did not see that post but perhaps it would have been wise to address that poster rather than throw it at me when you get frustrated with others. Because when you do it appears directed at me. I would think by now you know my stance. All are deserving of hell but the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. So again it is all because of His righteousness not ours. That is my stance.