Fishnbread
New Member
Im sorry for being so confusing please forgive me. what Im trying to say is please do not make men look like there trying to replace God because of what the Bible says.
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Submissiveness
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SaggyWoman
Active Member
I am not saying they are trying to replace God. I am just saying that they can be and sometimes are wrong.
Diane,
Sorry, but it was you that claimed an emotional story to make a point. I ask for one scripture that says a man is allowed to order his wife around and you admitted there was none.
I explained those examples, that although they also were emotional, they do not negate what God's word said. You were the one that appealed to emotions to try to fit the scriptures to your view.
Fishnbread
New Member
Im sorry I thought we were talking about rather or not wives should submit to there husbands, not human imperfections. and I don't think all men are somtimes wrong, allow me to remind you the the Bible described Job as perfect and upright.
Submission is voluntary in obedience to Christ because he first loved us.
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
Let's look at Abraham. Abraham walked by faith. He was not under the law.
Gen 18:
1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
The number of the heavenly visitors instructs us. Three came to Abraham, but only two to Lot. Three represents the Godhead, spiritually Abraham stood on faith in God, he lived as one who was “dead” to the world as represented by the wicked cities of the plain.
Contrast:
Gen:19:1. “And there came two angels to Sodom at even: and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground.”
God’s visit with Abraham, vs. Lot, In Abraham’s case God came in the form of three men, but in the visit with Lot He was represented by two angels. There can be communication between angels and men, but there can’t really be communion, In God’s choosing to appear to Abraham in the form of a man, we are being shown that it was for the purpose of enjoying communion. Abraham enjoyed fellowship with God by his condition and position he was right with God, while Lot was right in neither.
Sarah hearkens to Abraham as he obeys the Lord. He shows his headship by his act of faith, obeying God
Does Abraham listen to Sarah?
Genesis 21:
8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.
9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham,Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ehp:5:
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Eph:6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
Col:6:1 Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven .
Abraham obeyed God. Sarah obeyed Abraham as unto the Lord, this is key. As he submitted to God she submitted to him. She did not "suggest" Abraham get rid of the woman Haggar and his son, she said "Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
God commanded Abraham to listen to her. Abraham was not telling Sarah what to do because of his authority nor position, Sarah was not telling Abraham what to do in rebellious. They were obeying God. If you take notice in Eph 6:4, even the fathers can provoke their children to wrath. If husband/dad is using his position in Christ to lord it over the family, he is rebelling against God. Pay attention, the one scripture where it mentions Sarah obeying Abraham was as unto the Lord He hearkened to Sarah as unto the Lord
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
Let's look at Abraham. Abraham walked by faith. He was not under the law.
Gen 18:
1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
The number of the heavenly visitors instructs us. Three came to Abraham, but only two to Lot. Three represents the Godhead, spiritually Abraham stood on faith in God, he lived as one who was “dead” to the world as represented by the wicked cities of the plain.
Contrast:
Gen:19:1. “And there came two angels to Sodom at even: and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground.”
God’s visit with Abraham, vs. Lot, In Abraham’s case God came in the form of three men, but in the visit with Lot He was represented by two angels. There can be communication between angels and men, but there can’t really be communion, In God’s choosing to appear to Abraham in the form of a man, we are being shown that it was for the purpose of enjoying communion. Abraham enjoyed fellowship with God by his condition and position he was right with God, while Lot was right in neither.
Sarah hearkens to Abraham as he obeys the Lord. He shows his headship by his act of faith, obeying God
Does Abraham listen to Sarah?
Genesis 21:
8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.
9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham,Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ehp:5:
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Eph:6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
Col:6:1 Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven .
Abraham obeyed God. Sarah obeyed Abraham as unto the Lord, this is key. As he submitted to God she submitted to him. She did not "suggest" Abraham get rid of the woman Haggar and his son, she said "Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
God commanded Abraham to listen to her. Abraham was not telling Sarah what to do because of his authority nor position, Sarah was not telling Abraham what to do in rebellious. They were obeying God. If you take notice in Eph 6:4, even the fathers can provoke their children to wrath. If husband/dad is using his position in Christ to lord it over the family, he is rebelling against God. Pay attention, the one scripture where it mentions Sarah obeying Abraham was as unto the Lord He hearkened to Sarah as unto the Lord
Fishnbread
New Member
Marcia the subject of this debate is submissiveness of a wife to her husband it is not about the flaws in male leadership,it is not about the roles people play in a marriage, and it is not about abusive husbands, it is about submissiveness. I don't mean to sound rude but if you want to talk about something else other than that. prohaps you should start your own debate.
P.S I request that you correct me if I am wrong.
P.S I request that you correct me if I am wrong.
Fishnbread
New Member
And yes I agree that submissiveness is voluntary. but what isn't?, lying is voluntary, murder is voluntary, eating that last piece of cake on the kitchen counter is voluntary. the issue is not rather or not you physically can disobey your husband and get away with it the issue is can you do it and escape God's wrath.
Are you implying that God's wrath is on a Christian that doesn't submit by force, even though God himself does not allow that demand?
You need to be very careful implying believers are going to hell. God's wrath is reserved for those that reject Christ. Period.
By the way Job was righteous by position not in himself. For the Lord says there is none righteous, but God The Pharasees were rebuked sharply for the very same thing. Our righteousnes in in Christ alone.
Fishnbread
New Member
This is a yes or no question to Elnora. Do you or do you not believe that the Bible says wives should obey there husbands?
I Am Blessed 24
Active Member
This is an open forum, not a one on one debate, so I will answer.
The Bible says wives should SUBMIT to their husbands. Children are to OBEY their parents.
If both words mean the same; why didn't God say so?
The Bible says wives should SUBMIT to their husbands. Children are to OBEY their parents.
If both words mean the same; why didn't God say so?
Fishnbread
New Member
No Im sorry I Am Blessed 16 but. this forum is on one debate. The title is called submissiveness not open forum. And the reason why he said to submit rather than obey is that, to obey you don't have to agree with the orders given you just have follow them.
I Am Blessed 24
Active Member
I did not say this forum was not a debate forum.
I said this forum is not a "one on one" debate forum.
So to obey, we don't have to agree with the orders given, but to submit we do?
[ November 01, 2004, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: I Am Blessed 16 ]
Fishnbread
New Member
Please allow me to be more insightful.
Submit = to yield authority over to somthing.
How can some one be in authority and be disobeyed at the same time?
and I Am Blessed 16 you did say this was not a forum on one debate at first but then you edited it.
Submit = to yield authority over to somthing.
How can some one be in authority and be disobeyed at the same time?
and I Am Blessed 16 you did say this was not a forum on one debate at first but then you edited it.
Submission implies not obeying another, but rather a yielding of responsibility to another. Big difference. Submission, when seen in this light, also implies a cooperative effort. For example, we're to submit to the givernment, but we also ARE the government. Christians are to sumbit to each other in the body of Christ, but Christians ARE the body of Christ. Likewise, wives are to submit to their husbands, but husbands and wives are also one flesh.
I Am Blessed 24
Active Member
No sir; I did not edit that post. It is still on page 21 in it's original form:
By your own post, you admitted that submit and obey were two different words...
§ue
The reason I said that is because you said your question was for Elnora and I was answering it.
By your own post, you admitted that submit and obey were two different words...
§ue
Fishnbread
New Member
Really thank you for telling me that john I did not know that. On the issue as to rather or not a wife is to obey her husband Eph 5:23 say's for the husband is the head of the wife even as christ is the head of the church.