Suicide and does it guarantee....

[Zaac]

I have LITERALLY had to cut Christians down out of trees from trying to kill themselves. I have wrestled people from one end of house to the other to keep them from slitting their wrists while trying to call 911 and hold them down at the same time. Gosh there's been so many that at times I have felt like "okay enough with this whole ministry thing".

We don't know what brings a person to that point. But salvation doesn't fly away just because somebody commits one more sin.

This is one of the reasons we are to LOVE our neighbors as ourselves. You never know when you might have said something that could push someone else to that breaking point that's different for every person.

 

[corndogggy]

To answer the initial question, to be honest there is nothing in the Bible that says this. People just made it up. There is one statement in the entire Bible that says something like "why be a fool and die before your time", I think in Ecclesiastes, which is extremely vague at best. To be honest, the Catchecism of the catholic church has much more about the subject than the Bible itself does:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

Suicide

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

 

[Yeshua1]

Perhaps the lord is really silent on this issue due to Him wanting us to live for him until the time he decreed alots for us as passed, and also, if I knew for sure my children and wife could die and go to heaven, why not do that to avoid the roman collesium?

 

[matt wade]

This is a bunch of crap. You've obviously never really been near that point. I have. I remember at one point sitting in church and could think of nothing else other than the most efficient way to off myself, going so far as to devising backup plans in case the first method failed, such as shooting myself while standing on a chair with a noose around my neck. Even if I missed and blew half my face off, the noose wouldn't. It was a very dark time that was very full of pain. My health problems wore me down in the most extreme way. It was horrible. To make things worse, even when I cried out for help, nobody was there.

Looking back, it really irks me when folks like you with a superiority complex dismisses the plight of such people as trivial selfishness. People shouldn't speak evil of the things they don't understand. (2 Peter 2:12)

All your account does is reinforce Deacon's statements. You illustrate a low point in your life where you certainly lacked trust in God and were not satisfied with the things he had given you.

 

[Zaac]

Perhaps the lord is really silent on this issue due to Him wanting us to live for him until the time he decreed alots for us as passed, and also, if I knew for sure my children and wife could die and go to heaven, why not do that to avoid the roman collesium?

God has spoken to it. He forbids us to take a life. He is the ONLY One capable of righteously doing so. So just like abortion and capital punishment, suicide is a sin.

But it's not an unforgivable sin as the Catholic Church would have people to believe.

I think about EC's son and how you just don't know the depths to which people have sunk trying to just hold on and hold it together. And then sometimes the mind just goes and they give up all hope. They as Corndoggy said, cry out for help, but no one is there.

It's kinda like abortion. We don't want the young girls to get abortions, but where is the church at 1 o'clock in the morning when she's crying out for help and someone to talk to before she just gives up and heads to that clinic?

Most of the time, you've got to get your hands dirty to save a life.

 

[matt wade]

They as Corndoggy said, cry out for help, but no one is there.

God is there. Again, an illustration of lack of trust in God.

 

[corndogggy]

God is there. Again, an illustration of lack of trust in God.

The only people who can possibly say this are ones who have never been there. Even if simply trusting did work, sometimes the best that can possibly happen short of the longest string of miracles that the world has seen in 2,000 years is that other people will show up to help. That's literally the best you can hope for. When things get overwhelming and everything you know is falling apart and you don't get this help even after specifically asking for it, things can get rough.

When you get in a bad funk, you can't simply choose to be happy and appreciative. You can on the outside, but you still hurt badly from within. That's why so many suicides are a shock. They choose to act like you expect them to but that doesn't mean they actually feel any different. Once you get to that point, you cannot control this. Saying otherwise only shows that you've never experienced it. You can only hope that you never do.

 

[matt wade]

The only people who can possibly say this are ones who have never been there. Even if simply trusting did work, sometimes the best that can possibly happen short of the longest string of miracles that the world has seen in 2,000 years is that other people will show up to help. That's literally the best you can hope for. When things get overwhelming and everything you know is falling apart and you don't get this help even after specifically asking for it, things can get rough.

When you get in a bad funk, you can't simply choose to be happy and appreciative. You can on the outside, but you still hurt badly from within. That's why so many suicides are a shock. They choose to act like you expect them to but that doesn't mean they actually feel any different. Once you get to that point, you cannot control this. Saying otherwise only shows that you've never experienced it. You can only hope that you never do.

You can continue to say how bad it is and how overwhelming it is. The simple fact is that if you trust completely in God and that He is in control, you won't feel so overwhelmed. To reach the point you are talking about requires that you lack trust in God.

 

[Zaac]

God is there. Again, an illustration of lack of trust in God.

You know if the issue of God being there was at question and they could grab on to that, they probably MENTALLY wouldn't be at the place of wanting to take their lives.

At times like that, people need to see and hear from someone who can physically grab them and hold them and talk them down off the proverbial ledge.

Of course there's a lack of trust in God. At that point, there's a lack of trust in everything. That's why the Jesus Christ in YOU has to physically show up and make a difference.

 

[Zaac]

You can continue to say how bad it is and how overwhelming it is. The simple fact is that if you trust completely in God and that He is in control, you won't feel so overwhelmed. To reach the point you are talking about requires that you lack trust in God.

But this happens all the time with EVERYBODY. If we didn't all in some way lack trust in God, we would never sin again.

Sin IS a display of a lack of trust.

 

[matt wade]

But this happens all the time with EVERYBODY. If we didn't all in some way lack trust in God, we would never sin again.

Sin IS a display of a lack of trust.

Yes, you are correct. What's your point?

 

[corndogggy]

were not satisfied with the things he had given you.

The biggest thing I was given at the time was insomnia due to back problems. I don't care how blessed and trusting you think you are, you simply cannot get very little sleep every night for months without it taking a huge toll on you both physically and mentally. You cannot be severely sleep deprived and simply choose to be happy and thankful, it doesn't work that way, at the end of the day we are still humans who need sleep. Bad things happens when we don't get it, things start falling apart on us. :sleeping_2: If you disagree with this, simply stay up for most of the night for the next few months then reevaluate.

 

[matt wade]

The biggest thing I was given at the time was insomnia due to back problems. I don't care how blessed and trusting you think you are, you simply cannot get very little sleep every night for months without it taking a huge toll on you both physically and mentally. You cannot be severely sleep deprived and simply choose to be happy and thankful, it doesn't work that way, at the end of the day we are still humans who need sleep. Bad things happens when we don't get it. :sleeping_2:

Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. Philippians 4:11

I think Paul has you beat in terms of being put in uncomfortable situations.

 

[corndogggy]

You can continue to say how bad it is and how overwhelming it is. The simple fact is that if you trust completely in God and that He is in control, you won't feel so overwhelmed. To reach the point you are talking about requires that you lack trust in God.

Like I said in the previous statement, how about you voluntarily stay up for the vast majority of the night for a few months, then come back and tell me how things aren't overwhelming because of your trust. When this happens in a non-voluntary manner, you get a life full of pain, confusion, failed projects, work problems... it escalates and compounds and after awhile it seems like it will never end until you pop a bullet in the cranium. I'm sure it's easy to sit back and blame it on a simple lack of trust though.

 

[corndogggy]

I think Paul has you beat in terms of being put in uncomfortable situations.

How about you try it since it is so trivial.

 

[matt wade]

Like I said in the previous statement, how about you voluntarily stay up for the vast majority of the night for a few months, then come back and tell me how things aren't overwhelming because of your trust. When this happens in a non-voluntary manner, you get a life full of pain, confusion, failed projects, work problems... it escalates and compounds. I'm sure it's easy to sit back and blame it on a lack of trust though.

I never said trusting in those situations was easy, but it still boils down to a lack of trust.

Can you honestly tell me that, while you were in that situation, IF you had been able to trust God more fully that you wouldn't have been better off?

If you answer is YES that trusting more fully would have made you better off, then let's stop this debate. If you answer is no, then we should still stop because we'll never get anywhere .

 

[Zaac]

Yes, you are correct. What's your point?

My point is that you say

To reach the point you are talking about requires that you lack trust in God.

So if EVERYBODY sins and displays a lack of trust in God, then there's OBVIOUSLY another element involved that gets people to the point of wanting to take their lives.

 

[matt wade]

My point is that you say

So if EVERYBODY sins and displays a lack of trust in God, then there's OBVIOUSLY another element involved that gets people to the point of wanting to take their lives.

The overriding factor is trust in God. If you have enough trust in God, the other factors don't come into play.

 

[corndogggy]

I never said trusting in those situations was easy, but it still boils down to a lack of trust.

Can you honestly tell me that, while you were in that situation, IF you had been able to trust God more fully that you wouldn't have been better off?

If you answer is YES that trusting more fully would have made you better off, then let's stop this debate. If you answer is no, then we should still stop because we'll never get anywhere .

Really? Do you really think that such a weak and simplistic argument would change my mind that easily? :BangHead:

No, not at all, and that answer isn't going to change, because I did just that, got rebaptized and the whole 9 yards. Didn't help.


The fact of the matter is that people who haven't been there ought not be talking about it like this, you just look silly and judgmental to those of us who have. It's a complete waste of time because you don't know what you're talking about. Considering your only two options ends with stopping the debate, you're obviously looking for a way out anyway, so how about just stop posting? I know, the temptation is just too high and you can't control yourself.

 

[Zaac]

The overriding factor is trust in God. If you have enough trust in God, the other factors don't come into play.

Again, we're talkin sin. The overriding factor is always trust. But a lot of times when you've got distrust built up on top of distrust, you need somebody to help you trust.

What do you say to a child who has been sent from foster home to foster home and molested in each place by the people who are supposed to protect him? He wants to take his life. Is he gonna trust God when everyone else he thought he was supposed to trust let him down?