Summarizing the Mistakes of Calvinism

[Iconoclast]

What is the difference between blinding Israel and not opening the eyes of certain Gentiles (as in Calvinistic theology)?

Either way you have people who aren't chosen.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Amy.G]

The bible teaches God has temporarily blinded a rebellious nation (Israel) in order to accomplish redemption for all. People are NOT born blind, as Calvinism's doctrine of Total Depravity asserts (not to be confused with the doctrine of Original Sin which we affirm). So, the difference is that in my view the rebellious Israelites are are being temporarily sealed in that hardened/blind condition for a time so they will crucify Christ, whereas the Calvinists take those verses out of context to mean that God blinds all men from birth.

Make sense?

No. Because the Jews are still blinded. Little Jewish babies are born blind regarding the Messiah Jesus even to this day.

But, there is a HUGE difference.

1. Those being hardened are already rebellious people who have been rejecting God for generations. They weren't born rejected and without hope, as in Calvinism.

As I said, they are still blind, born blind and God will continue to blind them until the church is gone and the Tribulation, when the 2 witnesses will preach and their eyes will be opened.

2. God is still showing them mercy by hardening them because, as Paul explains in Rom 11, by hardening Israel he allows room for the Gentiles to come into the church which may provoke the Jews to become jealous and then be saved. They would see the change in the Gentiles lives and see how much good the church was doing and become envious, which could change their will. Paul's goes on to say they can be grafted back in if they leave their unbelief. (Rm 11:14-32)

Actually their blindness is a judgment against them for their rebellion. God does show mercy to some and some will believe, but it is very few at this point.

 

[gb93433]

There is no separation. We know when we attack ones views, there is no missing the persons involved. Especially when we have threads, let's say, that tell us calvinists don't own up to their responsibilities, and, when we have the constant making of threads by one against them.

Try living in another country when others are not offended by differing viewpoints and will debate those points without taking offense personally. As iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. If you take another's disagreement or misrepresentation of your viewpoint personally then others will disregard you and not bother trying to correct you.

Yes, I equate their theology with Arminian theology and it's not hard to see. Their theology stems from the same errant faith/freewill theology within Arminius doctrine.

Well I would never equate Arminius with the WoF folks. WoF folks are often more than false teachers but swindlers to line their own pockets. Some WoF may not even be believers. Perhaps you remember Robert Tilton who studied how to swindle people out of money.

 

[OldRegular]

I believe these summarize the three mistakes Calvinists make in their interpretation of scripture:

1. They misapply passages that are in reference to the way in which God chose his divinely appointed apostles by applying them to the method God has chosen to save all souls. Proof that God sovereignly hand picks his messengers in no way proves that He sovereignly hand picks who will and will not believe their message.

Why Not?

The Apostle Paul in Ephesisns 1:4 is certainly not talking about the Apostles only but about all Saints in the Church at Ephesus and by extension all the elect.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2. They fail to recognize that in the two passages that the term predestination is mentioned it is in reference to those who already believe ("us"). Believers are "predestined to be conformed to Christ's image." And believers are "predestined to be adopted as his sons." Neither of these goals have been accomplished in our lives, but whosoever believes in Christ, God has predetermined that they too will be "adopted as His son and conformed to his image."

Consider Ephesians 1:1-6

1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2. Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

You correctly state that: believers are "predestined to be adopted as his sons." However, you incorrectly state the term predestination is mentioned it is in reference to those who already believe. You are also reading your bias into the text when you say that the use of us means that Paul is applying predestination to those who already believe. The text simply states that the ones chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world are predestinated unto the adoption of children.

If we are a believer we are already a child. I believe that there are a number of aspects to Salvation but that does not mean that after we become Children of God He then predestinates us to be adopted.

Note also in verse 6 that it is God who makes His elect accepted in Jesus Christ, not our faith!

3. They mistakenly apply passages having to do with God's choosing to save the Gentiles while temporarily hardening the Jews to support their view of total inability and God's pre-selection of certain individuals. Passages having to do with the hardened Jews are often used by Calvinists to support their doctrine of Total Depravity. Passages having to do with the revelation of God's choice to allow Gentiles entrance into the Covenant of grace are used to support their doctrine of Unconditional Election.

Well the Calvinists may do as you say but this Baptist DoG does not!

Consider John 6:37-44

37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41. The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43. Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now in this passage there are certain statements concerning those who will come to Jesus Christ for Salvation.

In verse 37 we are told: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

So here we have "Irresistible Grace", a term I do not particularly like since it implies coercion in some peoples mind!

In verse 39 we are told: Of all that are given to Jesus Christ by the Father He will lose none but raise them up on the Last Day!

So we have here the "Security of the Saints" or the "Perseverance of the Saints".

In verse 44 we are told: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So we have here the inability of man to come to Jesus Christ of his own volition, which could be called "Total Depravity." [Now Total Depravity says nothing about the depth of sin and rebellion of any man, simply his inability to come for Salvation without an act of God.]

In verse 44 we read: No man can come to me, except the Father. If no one can come to Jesus Christ except the Father draw him we are forced to one conclusion; that is :Limited Atonement".

Also in verse 44 we are told that those who come to Jesus Christ are drawn to Him by the Father and all these will be raised up on the Last Day, "Irresistible Grace" once more.

So we have from this one passage: Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints.

"Unconditional Election" where are you. I believe that the above passage implies unconditional election, I also realize that some will grab onto verse 40 and declare that all is dependent on belief, ignoring all else taught in this passage. But for Unconditional Election we look at John 10:26-30:

26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

Only those who are His sheep does He give Eternal Life. Those who are not His sheep will not believe.

Now notice Skandelon that I did not say a thing about Jew and Gentile.

I do not like the use of the acronym TULIP to explain the Doctrine of Grace because it conjures up great prejudice against that TRUTH.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No. Because the Jews are still blinded. Little Jewish babies are born blind regarding the Messiah Jesus even to this day.



As I said, they are still blind, born blind and God will continue to blind them until the church is gone and the Tribulation, when the 2 witnesses will preach and their eyes will be opened.


Actually their blindness is a judgment against them for their rebellion. God does show mercy to some and some will believe, but it is very few at this point.

your makin some solid points! :thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

your makin some solid points! :thumbs:

Well even a blind (pun intended) hog finds an acorn now and then! :laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

No. Because the Jews are still blinded. Little Jewish babies are born blind regarding the Messiah Jesus even to this day.

That is not my view, so I can't defend it.

I believe, as I said before, that God temporarily blinded the already rebellious Jews in their rebellion so they would do what they already wanted to do...kill blasphemers (i.e. crucify Jesus, who they were blinded from seeing as the messiah). Like when a cop hides his presence so that speeders will keep doing what they want to do...speed.

I reject the notion men are born blind in the sense they cannot clearly see, understand and respond to God's divine revelation of himself. That would only give unbelievers an excuse for their unbelief, which Paul rejects in Romans 1.

Actually their blindness is a judgment against them for their rebellion.

It is judgement for their rebellion, I agree, but its also an act of mercy in that it allows room for the Gentiles which may provoke some of the Jews to envy so as to be saved (ref. Romans 11:14)

God does show mercy to some and some will believe, but it is very few at this point.

Actually in conclusion and summary of this point at the end of this chapter Paul said, "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." ...not just a few... only a few may respond, but its not for lack of God's willingness to show them mercy. He is very long-suffering with the Jews.

 

[Iconoclast]

There are similarities which is why they make this mistake, but there are very important differences.

The bible teaches God has temporarily blinded a rebellious nation (Israel) in order to accomplish redemption for all. People are NOT born blind, as Calvinism's doctrine of Total Depravity asserts (not to be confused with the doctrine of Original Sin which we affirm). So, the difference is that in my view the rebellious Israelites are are being temporarily sealed in that hardened/blind condition for a time so they will crucify Christ, whereas the Calvinists take those verses out of context to mean that God blinds all men from birth.

wrong.....men are spiritually dead from conception.....judicial hardening has nothing whatsoever to do with that....You do not understand the T

1. Those being hardened are already rebellious people who have been rejecting God for generations. They weren't born rejected and without hope, as in Calvinism.

Not according to eph2....same error...different explanation...you have a wounded adam...the bible has a dead Adam.

 

[Iconoclast]

Why Not?

The Apostle Paul in Ephesisns 1:4 is certainly not talking about the Apostles only but about all Saints in the Church at Ephesus and by extension all the elect.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:



Consider Ephesians 1:1-6

1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2. Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

You correctly state that: believers are "predestined to be adopted as his sons." However, you incorrectly state the term predestination is mentioned it is in reference to those who already believe. You are also reading your bias into the text when you say that the use of us means that Paul is applying predestination to those who already believe. The text simply states that the ones chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world are predestinated unto the adoption of children.

If we are a believer we are already a child. I believe that there are a number of aspects to Salvation but that does not mean that after we become Children of God He then predestinates us to be adopted.

Note also in verse 6 that it is God who makes His elect accepted in Jesus Christ, not our faith!





Well the Calvinists may do as you say but this Baptist DoG does not!

Consider John 6:37-44

37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41. The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43. Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now in this passage there are certain statements concerning those who will come to Jesus Christ for Salvation.

In verse 37 we are told: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

So here we have "Irresistible Grace", a term I do not particularly like since it implies coercion in some peoples mind!

In verse 39 we are told: Of all that are given to Jesus Christ by the Father He will lose none but raise them up on the Last Day!

So we have here the "Security of the Saints" or the "Perseverance of the Saints".

In verse 44 we are told: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So we have here the inability of man to come to Jesus Christ of his own volition, which could be called "Total Depravity." [Now Total Depravity says nothing about the depth of sin and rebellion of any man, simply his inability to come for Salvation without an act of God.]

In verse 44 we read: No man can come to me, except the Father. If no one can come to Jesus Christ except the Father draw him we are forced to one conclusion; that is :Limited Atonement".

Also in verse 44 we are told that those who come to Jesus Christ are drawn to Him by the Father and all these will be raised up on the Last Day, "Irresistible Grace" once more.

So we have from this one passage: Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints.

"Unconditional Election" where are you. I believe that the above passage implies unconditional election, I also realize that some will grab onto verse 40 and declare that all is dependent on belief, ignoring all else taught in this passage. But for Unconditional Election we look at John 10:26-30:

26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

Only those who are His sheep does He give Eternal Life. Those who are not His sheep will not believe.

Now notice Skandelon that I did not say a thing about Jew and Gentile.

I do not like the use of the acronym TULIP to explain the Doctrine of Grace because it conjures up great prejudice against that TRUTH.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::wavey:

 

[preacher4truth]

wrong.....men are spiritually dead from conception.....judicial hardening has nothing whatsoever to do with that....You do not understand the T



Not according to eph2....same error...different explanation...you have a wounded adam...the bible has a dead Adam.

He has totally misrepresented the cal brethren. Strawman extraordinaire.

And you're exactly right, he has an Adam that needs a bandaid handed to him, who opens it up, and applies it himself. Then he gets an "attaboy" and is congratulated for his faith, and is accepted for this act.

 

[gb93433]

Sounds like Dallas Seminary trying to exert influence in many baptist circles once again.

They already have. Just read the resumes of some of the faculty at SWBTS.

 

[Amy.G]

I believe, as I said before, that God temporarily blinded the already rebellious Jews in their rebellion so they would do what they already wanted to do...kill blasphemers (i.e. crucify Jesus, who they were blinded from seeing as the messiah). Like when a cop hides his presence so that speeders will keep doing what they want to do...speed.

So are you saying that this blindness was only for the Jews of Jesus' day and only until they killed Him?

I don't find any scripture saying that God has lifted this blindness. In fact, the bible says that they will be blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles is complete.

 

[Skandelon]

Why Not?

Because scripture never draws that conclusion and those who do actually undermine the uniqueness of those with apostolic authority.

The Apostle Paul in Ephesisns 1:4 is certainly not talking about the Apostles only but about all Saints in the Church at Ephesus and by extension all the elect.

I agree, but there he is talking about God's predetermined plan to adopt "us" (the believers; his church) as sons and daughters and to make "us" holy and blameless IN CHRIST, which is something we, as believers, eagerly await. We can rest assured it will happen because He has predetermined that it will. This says nothing about God preselecting to make some lost people believe.

 

[gb93433]

wrong.....men are spiritually dead from conception.....

Original sin?

 

[preacher4truth]

Why Not?

The Apostle Paul in Ephesisns 1:4 is certainly not talking about the Apostles only but about all Saints in the Church at Ephesus and by extension all the elect.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:



Consider Ephesians 1:1-6

1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2. Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

You correctly state that: believers are "predestined to be adopted as his sons." However, you incorrectly state the term predestination is mentioned it is in reference to those who already believe. You are also reading your bias into the text when you say that the use of us means that Paul is applying predestination to those who already believe. The text simply states that the ones chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world are predestinated unto the adoption of children.

If we are a believer we are already a child. I believe that there are a number of aspects to Salvation but that does not mean that after we become Children of God He then predestinates us to be adopted.

Note also in verse 6 that it is God who makes His elect accepted in Jesus Christ, not our faith!





Well the Calvinists may do as you say but this Baptist DoG does not!

Consider John 6:37-44

37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41. The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43. Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now in this passage there are certain statements concerning those who will come to Jesus Christ for Salvation.

In verse 37 we are told: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

So here we have "Irresistible Grace", a term I do not particularly like since it implies coercion in some peoples mind!

In verse 39 we are told: Of all that are given to Jesus Christ by the Father He will lose none but raise them up on the Last Day!

So we have here the "Security of the Saints" or the "Perseverance of the Saints".

In verse 44 we are told: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So we have here the inability of man to come to Jesus Christ of his own volition, which could be called "Total Depravity." [Now Total Depravity says nothing about the depth of sin and rebellion of any man, simply his inability to come for Salvation without an act of God.]

In verse 44 we read: No man can come to me, except the Father. If no one can come to Jesus Christ except the Father draw him we are forced to one conclusion; that is :Limited Atonement".

Also in verse 44 we are told that those who come to Jesus Christ are drawn to Him by the Father and all these will be raised up on the Last Day, "Irresistible Grace" once more.

So we have from this one passage: Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints.

"Unconditional Election" where are you. I believe that the above passage implies unconditional election, I also realize that some will grab onto verse 40 and declare that all is dependent on belief, ignoring all else taught in this passage. But for Unconditional Election we look at John 10:26-30:

26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

Only those who are His sheep does He give Eternal Life. Those who are not His sheep will not believe.

Now notice Skandelon that I did not say a thing about Jew and Gentile.

I do not like the use of the acronym TULIP to explain the Doctrine of Grace because it conjures up great prejudice against that TRUTH.

Excellent. As I stated, skan conveniently and selectively uses the passages he wants to use when he knows the truths are expressed elsewhere (well, it's probable he doesn't know this). Of course he's taken them out of context while at the same time failing to interpret them in light of other passages of Scripture. But his is a common Arminian/non-Calvinist proof-texting error.

 

[preacher4truth]

Original sin?

Yes, or rather Scripturally revealed truth.

 

[gb93433]

The Apostle Paul in Ephesisns 1:4 is certainly not talking about the Apostles only but about all Saints in the Church at Ephesus and by extension all the elect.

1:4 is part of a prayer starting with 1:3.

 

[gb93433]

Yes, or rather Scripturally revealed truth.

Seems like there was a discussion a few times about babies and salvation on the BB. How does your statement fit in?

 

[preacher4truth]

Seems like there was a discussion a few times about babies and salvation on the BB. How does your statement fit in?

Maybe that's off base with the OP and you should start a new thread.

 

[gb93433]

Maybe that's off base with the OP and you should start a new thread.

Many of the reformers were pedobaptists just as a number of Reformed Churches. But I thought it interesting that you would equate your statement with a doctrine of the RCC.