Summarizing the Mistakes of Calvinism

[OldRegular]

If God is no respecter of persons, then why would Calvinists believe that God gives unmerited favor to some and denies it to others?

John

Man shows partiality, he looks upon others on the basis of what he may perceive to be meritorious, or in a baser sense the station of a person in life. James warns against this error in his letter [Chapter 2]

God does not reveal why He chose some to Salvation in Jesus Christ and not others. But one thing is certain. He did not do it on the basis of any foreseen merit in man.

 

[gb93433]

Yes psalm 51, 5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Did you actually go beyond the words of Psalm 51:5 and take a look at its literary and historical context? Doing that is the same as proving that God has rejected everyone for eternity from Psalm 74:1.

 

[jbh28]

Here ya go.........

Is there a lot of butter on that popcorn? If so, I'd like some and a diet Coke please!

 

[gb93433]

God does not reveal why He chose some to Salvation in Jesus Christ and not others. But one thing is certain. He did not do it on the basis of any foreseen merit in man.

Many are called but few are chosen. Did God make a mistake when "many are called" and "few are chosen" because the called are more than the chosen?

 

[Aaron]

I believe these summarize the three mistakes Calvinists make in their interpretation of scripture:

1. They misapply passages that are in reference to the way in which God chose his divinely appointed apostles by applying them to the method God has chosen to save all souls. Proof that God sovereignly hand picks his messengers in no way proves that He sovereignly hand picks who will and will not believe their message.

2. They fail to recognize that in the two passages that the term predestination is mentioned it is in reference to those who already believe ("us"). Believers are "predestined to be conformed to Christ's image." And believers are "predestined to be adopted as his sons." Neither of these goals have been accomplished in our lives, but whosoever believes in Christ, God has predetermined that they too will be "adopted as His son and conformed to his image."

3. They mistakenly apply passages having to do with God's choosing to save the Gentiles while temporarily hardening the Jews to support their view of total inability and God's pre-selection of certain individuals. Passages having to do with the hardened Jews are often used by Calvinists to support their doctrine of Total Depravity. Passages having to do with the revelation of God's choice to allow Gentiles entrance into the Covenant of grace are used to support their doctrine of Unconditional Election.
​

There you go again. God elects an inherent quality, not an individual. It doesn't matter how you slice it, it comes up works.

 

[gb93433]

There you go again. God elects an inherent quality, not an individual. It doesn't matter how you slice it, it comes up works.

I would like to see you correct him with some substance. I would like to know what you believe.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Old Regular
In verse 37 we are told: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

So here we have "Irresistible Grace", a term I do not particularly like since it implies coercion in some peoples mind!

Response by Winman
This does not teach IG. Those whom the Father gives are those who truly bellieved Moses and the prophets.

Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Those who truly believed God's word recognized Jesus and therefore came to him. They could not have recognized Jesus except for God's word. This is shown in scripture.

Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

You have to believe God's word, otherwise you cannot come to Jesus. And that word is received from the Father. Therefore no one can come to Jesus unless it were given him of the Father.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

If you understand Jhn 5:46 you can understand Jhn 6:65. No man could or can come to Jesus unless he believes God's word. All those who do believe God's word will come to Jesus. It is not irresistible, as many refused to believe Moses and the prophets, therefore they could not come to Jesus. This is what Jesus is saying in Jhn 5:46.

Winman, I have always said that faith is an essential aspect of Salvation. None of the verses you post say that faith/belief precedes regeneration. I would simply say in response to your protests that the exercise of faith is completely consistent with the Doctrine of Grace.

Now as to your statement that John 6:37 does not teach Irresistible Grace you are mistaken as usual. The verse reads: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me. Now is Jesus Christ lying? I think not. Jesus Christ is affirming that those chosen by the Father and given to him will positively come to Him. Now that is a fact. Call it Irresistible Grace or call it whatever you choose but if you deny that fact you are denying the spoken Word of Jesus Christ.

Now Winman you state:

Those whom the Father gives are those who truly bellieved Moses and the prophets.

Where does that leave people who never heard Moses and the prophets? How do they get "given to Jesus Christ?

As for John 6:64, 65.
Verse 64 has reference to the betrayal by Judas. Verse 65 affirms exactly what verse 6:37 states and what I have stated: And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. For goodness sake, Winman, read the verse. No one can come to Jesus Christ unless it were given to the person by God. How is it given to the person? By election and regeneration.

Originally posted by Old Regular
In verse 39 we are told: Of all that are given to Jesus Christ by the Father He will lose none but raise them up on the Last Day!

So we have here the "Security of the Saints" or the "Perseverance of the Saints".

Response by Winman
This does not teach Perseverance (something we do) but Preservation (something God does). We are not saved because we are always faithful to God, we are saved because he is always faithful to us. Jesus promised that whosoever comes to him shall not be cast out (Jhn 6:37). Jesus is faithful to keep his word, therefore we cannot be lost. But it is not due to our faithfulness, but his.

Winman you are grasping at straws in an attempt to refute my post. Look at what I said.

So we have here the "Security of the Saints" or the "Perseverance of the Saints".

There is nothing there that says we are saved

because we are always faithful to God

Also please tell me the difference between the "Security of the Saints" and

Preservation (something God does)

Originally posted by Old Regular
In verse 44 we are told: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So we have here the inability of man to come to Jesus Christ of his own volition, which could be called "Total Depravity." [Now Total Depravity says nothing about the depth of sin and rebellion of any man, simply his inability to come for Salvation without an act of God.]

Response by Winman
Believe it or not, I actually agree with this definition of Total Inability. No man could possibly come to Jesus unless God had revealed him to us, and no man could come unless he were drawn and convicted by the word of God and the Spirit.

But if you mean by Total Inability that no man can believe unless he is first regenerated by God, I absolutely disagree. There are literally dozens of scriptures that all show faith precedes regeneration, which I have shown many times. Any man COULD believe if he chooses to do so, but most men will rebel and not believe.

Winman, has it ever occurred to you that what you persist in calling “were drawn and convicted by the word of God and the Spirit” could possibly be regeneration? One question I have posed to you and all Arminians is why do some believe and others do not. I know you will say “some loved darkness rather than light”, But isn’t that the condition of all men? I believe that is what John 3:19 states.

Originally posted by Old Regular
In verse 44 we read: No man can come to me, except the Father. If no one can come to Jesus Christ except the Father draw him we are forced to one conclusion; that is :Limited Atonement".

Response by Winman
This is error. Let's say you go fishing. If you catch a fish, was it drawn to the boat by you? Yes. Do you always catch 100% of the fish you hook and draw to the boat? No. A fish can fight and resist, and jump off the hook. Any real fisherman will tell you about "the one that got away".

Everyone who comes to Jesus was drawn by the Father, but not everyone who is drawn comes. Some fight and resist like a hooked fish and get away.

I really don’t fish. Haven’t fished since 1953! And I am not God!

The passage states: No man can come to me, except the Father. . However, to further make the point that this passage shows limited atonement consider the verse in total. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

First: No man can come unless the Father draws him. Verse 37 states the father gives the person to Jesus Christ. So the person is drewn to Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ will raise that person up on the last day. We must conclude that person, and all who are drawn to Jesus Christ by the Father, is saved.

Second: Are all people saved? The answer must be NO. Therefore, all people are not drawn to Jesus Christ and atonement is limited!

Originally posted by Old Regular
Also in verse 44 we are told that those who come to Jesus Christ are drawn to Him by the Father and all these will be raised up on the Last Day, "Irresistible Grace" once more.

Response by Winman
No, this again teaches Preservation of the Saints. Again, no man can possibly come to Jesus unless he has heard the word of God and been convicted and drawn by the Spirit. All those who do hear the word of God and are taught by it will come to Jesus. And all those who come to Jesus will not be cast out. This is preservation.

It is preservation if you like that word. It is also irresistable grace. Only those people who are drawn to Jesus Christ are saved and all people drawn to Jesus Christ are saved.

Originally posted by Old Regular
So we have from this one passage: Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints.

Response by Winman
You do not have Total Depravity, but in a sense you do have Inability, as no man can possibly come to Jesus unless God had revealed him to us, and drawn us by his Spirit. But men have free will and can either accept or reject Jesus (Jhn 1:11-12)

You do not have Limited Atonement here at all.

You do not have Irresistible Grace here at all.

You do not have Perseverance, you have Preservation which is very different. In Perseverance you are kept by your faithfulness (which we aren't), in Preservation we are kept by Jesus's faithfulness (which He is).

You are mistaken Winamn as I have shown once again. And I will say once again that all passages of Scripture regarding belief/faith are consistent with the Doctrine of Grace. However, the insistence by Arminians that God elects people to salvation based on His knowledge that they will of their own will believe is false. Furthermore, you cannot explain away those Scripture that clearly teach that God, before the foundarion of the world, elected some to Salvation and drew them to Jesus Christ through regeneration, or the Effectual Call as some prefer for certain Salvation!

 

[OldRegular]

Many are called but few are chosen. Did God make a mistake when "many are called" and "few are chosen" because the called are more than the chosen?

Are you implying that God makes mistakes.

The only answer i can give is that the "many are called" refers to the "Gospel Call" not the "Effectual Call". The parable of the sower demonstrates the difference between the two!

 

[gb93433]

Are you implying that God makes mistakes.

Not at all but it seems that some calvinists do.

The only answer i can give is that the "many are called" refers to the "Gospel Call" not the "Effectual Call". The parable of the sower demonstrates the difference between the two![/QUOTE]It seems to me that from what I have read posted by some calvinists that they would claim that God called and chose the same number. If that is the case then God makes mistakes because he does not call the same number he chooses according to scripture.

I like what A.T. Robertson wrote,
For many are called, but few chosen (polloi gar eisin klêtoi oligoi de eklektoi). This crisp saying of Christ occurs in various connections. He evidently repeated many of his sayings many times as every teacher does. There is a distinction between the called (klêtoi) and the chosen (eklektoi) called out from the called.

Jesus gave the explanation of the parable of the sower. So I will have to stick with His explanation and leave it where he leaves it. I believe that the parable of the sower applies to everyone in some way.

 

[convicted1]

Well even a blind (pun intended) hog finds an acorn now and then! :laugh:

You don't look like a hog in your avatar Sissy. In fact you look just like a poodle to me. So you should say, "Even a blind poodle can find a scrap every now and then". :laugh:


By the way, you're lookin' a little rough around the edges. I think it's about time for a good grooming!! :laugh: And how about a flea bath to boot? :laugh:

BTW, we used to have poodles a few years back, and they're the sweetest things! I sure do miss them.

 

[convicted1]

Is there a lot of butter on that popcorn? If so, I'd like some and a diet Coke please!

Nope, you can't have it! I have dibs already. You were predestined to drink seltzer water. I used my free will to get the diet Coke. Na na na na na boo boo!! :laugh:

 

[convicted1]

Who let the DoGs out? Skan, Skan, Skan, Skan......wooo wooo hooo hooo!

From the song "Who let the dogs out........j/k with everyone.

 

[convicted1]

I believe these summarize the three mistakes Calvinists make in their interpretation of scripture:

1. They misapply passages that are in reference to the way in which God chose his divinely appointed apostles by applying them to the method God has chosen to save all souls. Proof that God sovereignly hand picks his messengers in no way proves that He sovereignly hand picks who will and will not believe their message.

2. They fail to recognize that in the two passages that the term predestination is mentioned it is in reference to those who already believe ("us"). Believers are "predestined to be conformed to Christ's image." And believers are "predestined to be adopted as his sons." Neither of these goals have been accomplished in our lives, but whosoever believes in Christ, God has predetermined that they too will be "adopted as His son and conformed to his image."

3. They mistakenly apply passages having to do with God's choosing to save the Gentiles while temporarily hardening the Jews to support their view of total inability and God's pre-selection of certain individuals. Passages having to do with the hardened Jews are often used by Calvinists to support their doctrine of Total Depravity. Passages having to do with the revelation of God's choice to allow Gentiles entrance into the Covenant of grace are used to support their doctrine of Unconditional Election.​

Brother Skan,

There is MUCH that we are in agreement with, but a thread like this had the "self-destruct" button pressed from the get-go. A thread like this would be akin to "Your mommy is stupid, fat, lazy, and stanks, and here's why." Some things are better left unsaid. I am afraid that this was one of'em.

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe these summarize the three mistakes Calvinists make in their interpretation of scripture:

1. They misapply passages that are in reference to the way in which God chose his divinely appointed apostles by applying them to the method God has chosen to save all souls. Proof that God sovereignly hand picks his messengers in no way proves that He sovereignly hand picks who will and will not believe their message.

2. They fail to recognize that in the two passages that the term predestination is mentioned it is in reference to those who already believe ("us"). Believers are "predestined to be conformed to Christ's image." And believers are "predestined to be adopted as his sons." Neither of these goals have been accomplished in our lives, but whosoever believes in Christ, God has predetermined that they too will be "adopted as His son and conformed to his image."

3. They mistakenly apply passages having to do with God's choosing to save the Gentiles while temporarily hardening the Jews to support their view of total inability and God's pre-selection of certain individuals. Passages having to do with the hardened Jews are often used by Calvinists to support their doctrine of Total Depravity. Passages having to do with the revelation of God's choice to allow Gentiles entrance into the Covenant of grace are used to support their doctrine of Unconditional Election.​

This misses God's eternal purpose as God has always planned and purposed that gentiles would be mainstream in his church.
The ordination of the Apostles does not negate individual election unto salvation....
10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory

 

[Winman]

Winman, I have always said that faith is an essential aspect of Salvation. None of the verses you post say that faith/belief precedes regeneration. I would simply say in response to your protests that the exercise of faith is completely consistent with the Doctrine of Grace.

Oh, I know that many Calvinists separate regeneration from salvation, but I see nothing in scripture to support that. Jesus said he that believes has passed from death to life. It is not a process.

Now as to your statement that John 6:37 does not teach Irresistible Grace you are mistaken as usual. The verse reads: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me. Now is Jesus Christ lying? I think not. Jesus Christ is affirming that those chosen by the Father and given to him will positively come to Him. Now that is a fact. Call it Irresistible Grace or call it whatever you choose but if you deny that fact you are denying the spoken Word of Jesus Christ.

I do not deny that all the Father gives Jesus shall come to him. But the Father only gives those that believe. Those chosen before the foundation of the world are those whom the Father in his foreknowledge sees will believe. They are his because they believe his word, and he gives them to Jesus.

Now Winman you state:

Where does that leave people who never heard Moses and the prophets? How do they get "given to Jesus Christ?

No one who has not heard the word of God has ever come to Jesus. At the time, the only word of God was Moses and the prophets, today we have the NT. A person can hear scripture from the NT and be saved, but no man can come to Jesus unless he hears the word of God given by the Father.

As for John 6:64, 65.
Verse 64 has reference to the betrayal by Judas. Verse 65 affirms exactly what verse 6:37 states and what I have stated: And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. For goodness sake, Winman, read the verse. No one can come to Jesus Christ unless it were given to the person by God. How is it given to the person? By election and regeneration.

No, Jesus is speaking of the word of God throughout John 6.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jesus here says that no man can come to him unless he were drawn to Jesus by the Father, then Jesus explains how this is done. It is accomplished through the word of God. Every man who has heard, that is willingly listened to God's word and learned from from him shall come to Jesus. If you heard Moses and the prophets but did not believe it, you would not come to Jesus. This is why Jesus said in Jhn 5:46-47;

Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Again, Jesus is saying if you do not believe the word of God, then you cannot come to him, and you cannot believe his words, for his words are the word of God also. So, if you came to Jesus, it was given you of the Father.

Winman you are grasping at straws in an attempt to refute my post. Look at what I said.

There is nothing there that says we are saved

Also please tell me the difference between the "Security of the Saints" and

There is all the difference in the world between Perseverance and Preservation. Perseverance is something you do, you persevere. This is works salvation. Preservation is based upon God's faithfulness to keep his promises even when we are not faithful. I am not saved because I am perfectly faithful to Jesus, I assure you I am not. I am saved because Jesus is faithful to me. He promised if I come to him I will not be cast out. I did come to him, so I cannot be cast out, I am preserved. Big difference.

Winman, has it ever occurred to you that what you persist in calling “were drawn and convicted by the word of God and the Spirit” could possibly be regeneration? One question I have posed to you and all Arminians is why do some believe and others do not. I know you will say “some loved darkness rather than light”, But isn’t that the condition of all men? I believe that is what John 3:19 states.

No, it is not regeneration, it is drawing and conviction, but both can be resisted. Paul (Saul) was present when Stephen preached and the crowd stoned him. He heard the preaching but resisted. It was only later when Jesus appeared to him that he submitted to God and was saved.

Acts 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Paul heard Stephen preach, and it absolutely had an effect on him, but not for the good. He resisted the word of God and actively persecuted all those who believed in Jesus.

This is how folks act when they are convicted. They either submit to conviction and repent, or they do the opposite, they get angry and resist all the more. This is what Paul did when he heard the word of God. It is similar to Pharaoh, who continued to get more and more obstinate and angry each time he saw a miracle from God.

I really don’t fish. Haven’t fished since 1953! And I am not God!

Well, I am not much of a fisherman either, but I know fishermen are famous for bragging about "the one that got away".

Totally off subject, but I was present when the world record hammerhead shark was caught at the Jax Bch Pier back in 75. I was in the water surfing when this shark was pulled out no more than 50 feet from me.

Man, when I saw "Blackie" pulling this shark out, I got out of the water quick. I have some pics of this shark I took myself.

The passage states: No man can come to me, except the Father. . However, to further make the point that this passage shows limited atonement consider the verse in total. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

First: No man can come unless the Father draws him. Verse 37 states the father gives the person to Jesus Christ. So the person is drewn to Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ will raise that person up on the last day. We must conclude that person, and all who are drawn to Jesus Christ by the Father, is saved.

The word of God is that that draws and convicts, but it can be resisted. Nevertheless, if you came, it was because of the word of God, therefore no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws you.

Jhn 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

These are the men who wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery. Note how they were convicted by Jesus's words. These men were not saved, in fact they were trying to trap Jesus. Nevertheless, they were convicted by the word of God.

Second: Are all people saved? The answer must be NO. Therefore, all people are not drawn to Jesus Christ and atonement is limited!

This is where you are wrong. Many people are convicted and drawn but resist. They are like the fish that was pulled almost to the boat but fought and resisted, jumped off the hook and got away. Even Christians here will tell you they resisted getting saved, sometimes for years. I did not resist, the first time I heard the gospel I accepted Jesus. I was afraid to go even one minute more in danger of hell, when the preacher invited folks to come down and find out how to be saved, I almost ran down. I was seriously convicted by the word of God!

It is preservation if you like that word. It is also irresistable grace. Only those people who are drawn to Jesus Christ are saved and all people drawn to Jesus Christ are saved.

There is no such thing as Irresistible Grace, many folks resisted the gospel.

You are mistaken Winamn as I have shown once again. And I will say once again that all passages of Scripture regarding belief/faith are consistent with the Doctrine of Grace. However, the insistence by Arminians that God elects people to salvation based on His knowledge that they will of their own will believe is false. Furthermore, you cannot explain away those Scripture that clearly teach that God, before the foundarion of the world, elected some to Salvation and drew them to Jesus Christ through regeneration, or the Effectual Call as some prefer for certain Salvation!

No one is regenerated until they believe. Regenerated means "generated" or made alive again. It is life, and scriptures say you have to believe to have life.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

You might be drawn and convicted by the word of God, but until you place your trust in Jesus you do not have life.

 

[quantumfaith]

This misses God's eternal purpose as God has always planned and purposed that gentiles would be mainstream in his church.
The ordination of the Apostles does not negate individual election unto salvation....
10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory

ICON, the following is something interesting I have come across. I have often "heard" of the NPP, but know little about it.

The New Perspective and Ephesians
This is the third installment of a series, the first two numbers being "The New Perspective on Paul" and "The New Perspective and the Development of Reformed Doctrine."

The New Perspective on Paul is generally associated with a reinterpretation of Romans and Galatians, inasmuch as these two books have been most closely associated with the Old Perspective and the traditional Protestant interpretation of justification being derived from these two epistles. However, the traditional (especially Reformed) interpretation of Ephesians 1 and 2 should also be reexamined in light of the New Perspective.

The message of the Gospel, available to anyone who believes, was a direct threat to the special status that Israel had held as the chosen people. According to the New Perspective, this opposition to the full inclusion of the Gentiles was the major issue against which Paul was arguing in Romans and Galatians. Ephesians is quite clearly about much the same issue, although not directed against Jewish opposition or Judaizers, but written to Gentile believers to assure them of their full inclusion with Jewish believers in the New Covenant. Ephesians 2:11-3:21, which forms the heart of the book, are quite explicitly about this issue: the "mystery of Christ," which is that "the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (3:4-6). However, in traditional Reformed interpretation, chapters 1 and 2 are read as though they had nothing to do with the Jew-Gentile problem, and instead read as though they are a treatise on individual election.

Who are the "you" and the "us"?

The key to understanding Ephesians 1-2 is to identify whom Paul means by “you” and by “us” and “we.” For example, when he states “he chose us . . . he predestined us” (1:4, 5), what exactly constitutes “us”? How does the context define “us”? What are the defining characteristics of the group of people to whom Paul is referring?

In the first verse of the epistle, Paul designates his readers as pistois en Christô Iēsou, "faithful [or believing] in Christ Jesus." In the rest of his epistles, Paul only addresses his readers as pistois one other time, in Colossians. This designation, then, has special significance to the readers of Ephesians. The prominent role of faith in subsequent verses highlights the fact that Paul's designation is intended to frame the self-perception of his readers.

In connection with “having been predestined” in v. 11, Paul identifies “we” in vv. 11 and 12 as “the first to hope in Christ.” In v. 13, he identifies “you” as having been “included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation” and as “having believed.” He refers in v. 15 to “your faith,” in v. 19 to “us who believe,” and states in 2:10 that “you” have been saved “through faith.” Based on the above verses, one defining characteristic of both “you” and “us” throughout the passage would clearly seem to be that they are believers and have faith.

You Gentiles and We Jews

In 2:11, "you" is more explicitly identified as "you who are Gentiles by birth and called 'uncircumcised' by those who call themselves 'the circumcision' (that done in the body by the hands of men)...." It is probable that virtually all of Paul's readers were Gentiles, so this verse further defines the "you." Paul's identification of "we" as "the first to hope in Christ" in verse 13 now makes more sense: the first generation of Christians, including Paul himself, were Jewish believers; therefore where "we" is contrasted with "you," Paul is referring to Jewish believers. (When not contrasted with "you," Paul may mean either Jewish believers or Jewish and Gentile believers considered together.) This connects the early part of the epistle thematically with the central section, the main point of which is the union of Jewish and Gentile believers into one body (2:16, 3:6).

Taking this understanding back to the passages dealing with election helps to understand Paul's intent better. In 1:4-5, Paul discusses how God chose "us" and predestined "us"; here, he is writing of Jewish and Gentile believers considered together. He is including the Gentiles in the election that Israel was already understood as having. His point is that the Gentiles are not an afterthought in God's plan; they were chosen "before the creation of the world." 1:9-10 foreshadow 3:6: the "all things" that are to be brought "together under one head" are the Jewish and Gentile believers.

Verses 11-14 begin to make a distinction between "we" and "you." The "we" in verse 11 who were "predestined" are defined in verse 12 as "the first to hope in Christ"; i.e., Paul now means by "we" the first generation of believers, who were largely Jewish. Then "you also [Gentile believers] were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth.... Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal...." Paul is saying that just as we Jews who believed were chosen and predestined according to God's plan, even so you Gentile believers are also included in that same plan. The Gentiles are fully included in the plan that God had from the beginning.

At the beginning of chapter 2, Paul continues the comparison: just as "you were dead in your transgressions and sins" (2:1-2), even so "all of us also lived among them [the 'sons of disobedience'] at one time.... we were by nature objects of wrath" (2:3). The Jews, just like the Gentiles, had once been alienated from God--the same point he makes in Galatians 2:15-16, and reiterates explicitly with regard to the Gentiles in 2:12-13.

Because of the individualistic emphasis of the Old Perspective, Ephesians 1:1-2:10 has been interpreted as an exposition of individual unconditional election, total depravity, and regeneration prior to justification. Understanding the role of the Jew-Gentile issue in Ephesians leads to a different conception of Paul's message here--one that reaches out to Gentile believers and assures them that they are just as fundamentally a part of God's election and plan as Israel had been in the Old Testament. Although this understanding can still be fit into the Reformed framework, it does not require the Reformed understanding of unconditional, individual election. Gentile believers are being reassured that they are just as much "chosen" as Jewish believers had been--because God's choice is not based on whether they are Jews or Gentiles, but rather upon faith in Christ as the only necessary criterion.

 

[preacher4truth]

Brother Skan,

There is MUCH that we are in agreement with, but a thread like this had the "self-destruct" button pressed from the get-go. A thread like this would be akin to "Your mommy is stupid, fat, lazy, and stanks, and here's why." Some things are better left unsaid. I am afraid that this was one of'em.

Agreed. :thumbs:

 

[preacher4truth]

This misses God's eternal purpose as God has always planned and purposed that gentiles would be mainstream in his church.
The ordination of the Apostles does not negate individual election unto salvation....
10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory

Several have noted the conveniently missing texts, not to mention the misinterpreted texts he does use.

It's not hard to figure out. :wavey:

 

[Aaron]

Brother Skan,

There is MUCH that we are in agreement with, but a thread like this had the "self-destruct" button pressed from the get-go. A thread like this would be akin to "Your mommy is stupid, fat, lazy, and stanks, and here's why." Some things are better left unsaid. I am afraid that this was one of'em.

Your post implies that my mom is actually all those things, that he was simply untactful to say so.

His post is more akin to:

a = x
a+a = a+x
2a = a+x
2a-2x = a+x-2x
2(a-x) = a+x-2x
2(a-x) = a-x
2 = 1

​

Looks right until the last step where he insists on dividing by zero. 2=1 is "mysterious," but must be the conclusion, because he obeyed all the rules of math to arrive at that conclusion. The Calvinists are trying to tell him that a-x is zero, and nothing can be divided by zero. The argument is as basic as arguing over whether or not 2 = 1.

That's where the self-destruct button is.

 

[Van]

Reply to Skandelon,

I believe these summarize the three mistakes Calvinists make in their interpretation of scripture:

1. They misapply passages that are in reference to the way in which God chose his divinely appointed apostles by applying them to the method God has chosen to save all souls. Proof that God sovereignly hand picks his messengers in no way proves that He sovereignly hand picks who will and will not believe their message.

2. They fail to recognize that in the two passages that the term predestination is mentioned it is in reference to those who already believe ("us"). Believers are "predestined to be conformed to Christ's image." And believers are "predestined to be adopted as his sons." Neither of these goals have been accomplished in our lives, but whosoever believes in Christ, God has predetermined that they too will be "adopted as His son and conformed to his image."

3. They mistakenly apply passages having to do with God's choosing to save the Gentiles while temporarily hardening the Jews to support their view of total inability and God's pre-selection of certain individuals. Passages having to do with the hardened Jews are often used by Calvinists to support their doctrine of Total Depravity. Passages having to do with the revelation of God's choice to allow Gentiles entrance into the Covenant of grace are used to support their doctrine of Unconditional Election.​

Point 1. Some but not all Calvinists use this verse to make the cause for individual election. However, when the tables are turned and it is pointed out that this election is during their lifetime and not before creation, they quickly point out the election was for another purpose.

However, to your point that God does not hand pick who will believe, I agree. But if you were implying that God does not hand pick who He saves by putting them individually in Christ, after crediting their faith as righteousness, I disagree. Corporate Salvation is false doctrine.

Point 2. This is close to the truth, in my opinion, but no cigar. God's predetermined plan for redemption was formulated or known before the foundation of the world, for you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan for the Redeemer to redeem. The redemption plan, according to scripture, had three features:

First, God would provide a Redeemer to provide the means of salvation for all mankind, 1 John 2:2.​

Second, God would put whoever believes in His Redeemer spiritually in Christ, but God would decide who believes with their whole heart. 1 Cor. 1:30; Romans 4:4-5​

Third, God would raise His Redeemer from the grave as the first born of many brethren, and would raise all those He would put into Christ spiritually during their lifetime when Christ returns, in glorified bodies.​

Thus anyone spiritually placed "in Christ" is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and predestined to be bodily resurrected.

Point 3. As to the question of when did the temporary hardening of the Jews end, I think it ended when those individuals either died or the hardening was removed, near the the time Paul was writing Romans. Paul referred to them as the ones who drove him out of the Jewish places of worship and into the Gentile areas. Yet he also expressed hope that his subsequent work with the Gentiles would cause some Jews to repent indicates some Jews were able to repent.

However, all the passages when folks lose their ability to come to faith demonstrate Total Spiritual Inability is not a condition we are conceived in, but rather a condition some achieve during their lifetime.