Yes psalm 51,
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
romans 3:23..romans 5:12-21
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Summarizing the Mistakes of Calvinism
- Thread starter Skandelon
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Yes psalm 51,
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
romans 3:23..romans 5:12-21
He has totally misrepresented the cal brethren. Strawman extraordinaire.
And you're exactly right, he has an Adam that needs a bandaid handed to him, who opens it up, and applies it himself. Then he gets an "attaboy" and is congratulated for his faith, and is accepted for this act.
This error is the strongman argument of those who resist the absolute sovereignty of God.......as long as they see adam still having ability they will not see it correctly....most disagreements on BB are over this error.
While it is a strawman in a sense...I think it speaks for many who cannot seem to deal with the fall.They are sincere,and think they have truth....but it does not answer to the reality scripture portrays...will post more later...got to go west...lol in iowa...will get mostly through NEbraska...then post again...these were just some quick feedback to OP.
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quantumfaith
Active Member
Yessss, thems fightin words! Pass the popcorn.
Why do they have to be "fighting" words? Cannot they simply be points to discuss and rebut if you feel differently?
quantumfaith
Active Member
Are you talking about the people or their views. It seems that so many cannot separate their intellectual viewpoint from their person.
You equate WoF and Arminian theology? The scandals among the WofF are attributed to Arminian theology? I would equate that to Health/Wealth false news. Health/Wealth theology was around long before Arminius.
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
quantumfaith
Active Member
Thankfully a relationship with God does not depend on our intellectual knowledge always being right. He is full of grace.
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Because scripture never draws that conclusion and those who do actually undermine the uniqueness of those with apostolic authority.
Sorry but God, the Apostle Peter, and the Apostle Paul disagree with you:
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
I suspect that Cornelius is mighty glad!
I agree, but there he is talking about God's predetermined plan to adopt "us" (the believers; his church) as sons and daughters and to make "us" holy and blameless IN CHRIST, which is something we, as believers, eagerly await. We can rest assured it will happen because He has predetermined that it will. This says nothing about God preselecting to make some lost people believe.
That is incorrect!
The Scripture reads: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: [Ephesians 4:1]
The verb "hath chosen" is the present perfect tense of the verb chose.
The present perfect is a grammatical combination of the present tense and the perfect aspect, used to express a past event that has present consequences.
Therefore, God through the Apostle Paul is speaking of His act before the foundation of the world.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
1:4 is part of a prayer starting with 1:3.
Possibly! But that would not change the meaning!
preacher4truth
Active Member
Many of the reformers were pedobaptists just as a number of Reformed Churches. But I thought it interesting that you would equate your statement with a doctrine of the RCC.
It's not simply a doctrine of the RCC, nor did I receive it from there, but from the Scriptures. As I requested, if you need to get away from the OP, go start another thread.
Originally posted by Old Regular;
This does not teach IG. Those whom the Father gives are those who truly bellieved Moses and the prophets.
Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Those who truly believed God's word recognized Jesus and therefore came to him. They could not have recognized Jesus except for God's word. This is shown in scripture.
Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
You have to believe God's word, otherwise you cannot come to Jesus. And that word is received from the Father. Therefore no one can come to Jesus unless it were given him of the Father.
Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
If you understand Jhn 5:46 you can understand Jhn 6:65. No man could or can come to Jesus unless he believes God's word. All those who do believe God's word will come to Jesus. It is not irresistible, as many refused to believe Moses and the prophets, therefore they could not come to Jesus. This is what Jesus is saying in Jhn 5:46.
This does not teach Perseverance (something we do) but Preservation (something God does). We are not saved because we are always faithful to God, we are saved because he is always faithful to us. Jesus promised that whosoever comes to him shall not be cast out (Jhn 6:37). Jesus is faithful to keep his word, therefore we cannot be lost. But it is not due to our faithfulness, but his.
Believe it or not, I actually agree with this definition of Total Inability. No man could possibly come to Jesus unless God had revealed him to us, and no man could come unless he were drawn and convicted by the word of God and the Spirit.
But if you mean by Total Inability that no man can believe unless he is first regenerated by God, I absolutely disagree. There are literally dozens of scriptures that all show faith precedes regeneration, which I have shown many times. Any man COULD believe if he chooses to do so, but most men will rebel and not believe.
This is error. Let's say you go fishing. If you catch a fish, was it drawn to the boat by you? Yes. Do you always catch 100% of the fish you hook and draw to the boat? No. A fish can fight and resist, and jump off the hook. Any real fisherman will tell you about "the one that got away".
Everyone who comes to Jesus was drawn by the Father, but not everyone who is drawn comes. Some fight and resist like a hooked fish and get away.
No, this again teaches Preservation of the Saints. Again, no man can possibly come to Jesus unless he has heard the word of God and been convicted and drawn by the Spirit. All those who do hear the word of God and are taught by it will come to Jesus. And all those who come to Jesus will not be cast out. This is preservation.
You do not have Total Depravity, but in a sense you do have Inability, as no man can possibly come to Jesus unless God had revealed him to us, and drawn us by his Spirit. But men have free will and can either accept or reject Jesus (Jhn 1:11-12)
You do not have Limited Atonement here at all.
You do not have Irresistible Grace here at all.
You do not have Perseverance, you have Preservation which is very different. In Perseverance you are kept by your faithfulness (which we aren't), in Preservation we are kept by Jesus's faithfulness (which He is).
In verse 37 we are told: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
So here we have "Irresistible Grace", a term I do not particularly like since it implies coercion in some peoples mind!
This does not teach IG. Those whom the Father gives are those who truly bellieved Moses and the prophets.
Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Those who truly believed God's word recognized Jesus and therefore came to him. They could not have recognized Jesus except for God's word. This is shown in scripture.
Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
You have to believe God's word, otherwise you cannot come to Jesus. And that word is received from the Father. Therefore no one can come to Jesus unless it were given him of the Father.
Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
If you understand Jhn 5:46 you can understand Jhn 6:65. No man could or can come to Jesus unless he believes God's word. All those who do believe God's word will come to Jesus. It is not irresistible, as many refused to believe Moses and the prophets, therefore they could not come to Jesus. This is what Jesus is saying in Jhn 5:46.
In verse 39 we are told: Of all that are given to Jesus Christ by the Father He will lose none but raise them up on the Last Day!
So we have here the "Security of the Saints" or the "Perseverance of the Saints".
This does not teach Perseverance (something we do) but Preservation (something God does). We are not saved because we are always faithful to God, we are saved because he is always faithful to us. Jesus promised that whosoever comes to him shall not be cast out (Jhn 6:37). Jesus is faithful to keep his word, therefore we cannot be lost. But it is not due to our faithfulness, but his.
In verse 44 we are told: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
So we have here the inability of man to come to Jesus Christ of his own volition, which could be called "Total Depravity." [Now Total Depravity says nothing about the depth of sin and rebellion of any man, simply his inability to come for Salvation without an act of God.]
Believe it or not, I actually agree with this definition of Total Inability. No man could possibly come to Jesus unless God had revealed him to us, and no man could come unless he were drawn and convicted by the word of God and the Spirit.
But if you mean by Total Inability that no man can believe unless he is first regenerated by God, I absolutely disagree. There are literally dozens of scriptures that all show faith precedes regeneration, which I have shown many times. Any man COULD believe if he chooses to do so, but most men will rebel and not believe.
In verse 44 we read: No man can come to me, except the Father. If no one can come to Jesus Christ except the Father draw him we are forced to one conclusion; that is :Limited Atonement".
This is error. Let's say you go fishing. If you catch a fish, was it drawn to the boat by you? Yes. Do you always catch 100% of the fish you hook and draw to the boat? No. A fish can fight and resist, and jump off the hook. Any real fisherman will tell you about "the one that got away".
Everyone who comes to Jesus was drawn by the Father, but not everyone who is drawn comes. Some fight and resist like a hooked fish and get away.
Also in verse 44 we are told that those who come to Jesus Christ are drawn to Him by the Father and all these will be raised up on the Last Day, "Irresistible Grace" once more.
No, this again teaches Preservation of the Saints. Again, no man can possibly come to Jesus unless he has heard the word of God and been convicted and drawn by the Spirit. All those who do hear the word of God and are taught by it will come to Jesus. And all those who come to Jesus will not be cast out. This is preservation.
So we have from this one passage: Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints.
You do not have Total Depravity, but in a sense you do have Inability, as no man can possibly come to Jesus unless God had revealed him to us, and drawn us by his Spirit. But men have free will and can either accept or reject Jesus (Jhn 1:11-12)
You do not have Limited Atonement here at all.
You do not have Irresistible Grace here at all.
You do not have Perseverance, you have Preservation which is very different. In Perseverance you are kept by your faithfulness (which we aren't), in Preservation we are kept by Jesus's faithfulness (which He is).
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glfredrick
New Member
I couldn't agree more.
They seem not to understand that while Christ was here his goal wasn't to get a bunch of people to believe in him as we see in Acts 2 after Peter's first sermon. Christ was given a remnant from Israel to train as his messengers to be the foundation for the church. He blinds the rest of Israel by speaking in parables, telling his followers to keep things secret, sending a 'spirit of stupor' and the like to prevent the Jews from coming to repentance until the right time.
Not understanding or recognizing that historical context creates great misunderstandings.
As long as we are speaking of misunderstanding, why not consider the fact that you failed to mention all of God's elections in the OT.
What of Able, Seth, Noah, Abram, Jacob, Isaac, Judah, Jesse, David, and on the list goes -- all elected by God even in spite of human cultural issues that suggested that they should not be elected.
No, if there is a deficient view of God's elective power it is on your part. Noting that God's election is only for the Apostles in the NT fails to see God's elective power that directed the cause of history itself in order to deliver, when the time was right, Messiah, born of a woman, born under the Law, and yes, even that was a part of God's elective power.
seekingthetruth
New Member
Sorry but God, the Apostle Peter, and the Apostle Paul disagree with you:
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
I suspect that Cornelius is mighty glad!
That is incorrect!
The Scripture reads: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: [Ephesians 4:1]
The verb "hath chosen" is the present perfect tense of the verb chose.
The present perfect is a grammatical combination of the present tense and the perfect aspect, used to express a past event that has present consequences.
Therefore, God through the Apostle Paul is speaking of His act before the foundation of the world.
If God is no respecter of persons, then why would Calvinists believe that God gives unmerited favor to some and denies it to others?
John
preacher4truth
Active Member
As others and I have stated, he hasn't been exhaustive in Scriptural evidence for his points, but conveniently selective. The reason for this is obvious.
Another factor is he feels his arguments and interpretations within his selected texts to be formidable. The fact is, his arguments fall short of representing the entire counsel of God. Willfully.
- Peace
Another factor is he feels his arguments and interpretations within his selected texts to be formidable. The fact is, his arguments fall short of representing the entire counsel of God. Willfully.
- Peace
Those who misunderstand, or just disagree with, the tenets of Calvinism may be edified by watching John Piper's DVD series on TULIP. He used to be an Arminian and he explains his conversion in the opening session of the series. he also addresses the common arguments far better than I could.
If God is no respecter of persons, then why would Calvinists believe that God gives unmerited favor to some and denies it to others?
John
For the simple fact that He does, in fact, tell us that is what He did in the book of Romans. In reality the fact that God is no respecter of persons is precisely why His favor is unmerited. He chose based according to His own will, not according to social status, intellect, nationality, or any other bias typical of fallen man.
seekingthetruth
New Member
For the simple fact that He does, in fact, tell us that is what He did in the book of Romans. In reality the fact that God is no respecter of persons is precisely why His favor is unmerited. He chose based according to His own will, not according to social status, intellect, nationality, or any other bias typical of fallen man.
OK, then why would the bible state that God is no respecter of persons if He really, in fact, is?
John
preacher4truth
Active Member
If God is no respecter of persons, then why would Calvinists believe that God gives unmerited favor to some and denies it to others?
John
His favor bestowed upon men is not based upon anything they have done, but only upon the mercy and Grace of God. Something we call "unconditional election." He shows mercy to whom He wills and based upon nothing the person has done.
Another thing, we are all sinners, thus none of us deserve nor merit this mercy or grace.
Now, within the false and condemned teachings of arminian theology it is preached what we refer to as "conditional election;" i.e. man does something within hisability then because of that thing God elects them.
Now, which really falls under "respecter of persons"? Is it the one to whom God decides to show mercy to for absolutely no condition or thing that person has done, or, is a respecter of persons seen more readily on the person who "did" something, and because the person "did something" they were given mercy and chosen for that?
In addition, what does "God is no respecter of persons" mean within its given context? I believe the term is somewhat misapplied and used out of its intended context.
- Peace
OK, then why would the bible state that God is no respecter of persons if He really, in fact, is?
John
You have been answered but you refuse to acknowledge it, unless of course you are simply blind to the truth. I won't claim to know which is the truth but I have a hard time believing you are honestly "seeking the truth" regardless of the reason. I will promise to pray the Lord reveals the truth to you. That is the nature of irresistible grace. We may make rejections for years, resisting God's grace, but at His appointed time His grace will overwhelm our ability to resist. Someone smarter than me referred to this process as the "Hounds of Heaven".
For the simple fact that He does, in fact, tell us that is what He did in the book of Romans. In reality the fact that God is no respecter of persons is precisely why His favor is unmerited. He chose based according to His own will, not according to social status, intellect, nationality, or any other bias typical of fallen man.
This is easily shown to be false.
1 Cor 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
These verses plainly say God has chosen the foolish, the weak, the base and despised to confound the those who are mighy. And God tells why, so that no flesh should glory in his presence.
Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
God does not choose people simply because they are poor. There will be many poor people who are lost, and there will be rich people who are saved.
No, God chooses those who are "rich in faith", those who look to him and trust in Him. And generally speaking, this is the poor and the weak, the base and despised. A rich man is often proud, he boasts in his accomplishments and has much faith in his own abilities. In his opinion, he does not need God or anyone else, he is self-sufficient. The poor are the opposite, they look to God and cry out to God in faith, they depend on God to save them and sustain them.
So, this is why God has chosen the poor, the weak, and despised, because they are rich in faith and look to God.
So, it is not some sort of mystery or secret who God chooses as Calvinism falsely teaches, it is plainly stated in scripture. And it is not unconditional, God chooses those rich in faith who love God.
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quantumfaith
Active Member
The OT reveals four purposes for which God elects individuals or groups: service, salvation, blessing, and reflection of God's character. First and foremost, OT election is God's choice of an individual or group to fulfill His purpose or accomplish a task.21 God chose various individuals to be judges, prophets, leaders, or kings. God chose Aholiab and Bezalel and filled them with His spirit to make the tabernacle furnishings (Exo. 31:1-6). Aaron and his seed were chosen to serve as priests (Num. 16:5; 17:20). According to Isaiah Israel was chosen, in part, to praise the Lord (Isa. 43:21). Cyrus' election was to fulfill God's promise of Israel's restoration to the land and the rebuilding of the temple (2 Chr. 36:23; Ezra 1:2; Isa. 45:1ff). God refers to the Persians as those He has consecrated (vdqm) to bring the Day of Yahweh upon Babylon (Isa. 13:3), and the Assyrians were elected "to capture booty and to seize plunder, and to trample [a godless nation] down like mud in the streets" (Isa. 10:5-6).
Service and salvation, as purposes of election, blend in the election of Abraham and his seed.22 Abraham was chosen to be a blessing to all nations (Gen. 12:3; 18:18)23 and in order that he should instruct his children to walk in Yahweh's way (Gen. 18:19).24 The nation of Israel was the elect instrument through which God intended to mediate the promised Abrahamic blessing (salvation) to the whole world; thus Yahweh calls them "a kingdom of priests" (Exo. 19:6), "witnesses" (Isa. 43:10, 12), and "My servant" (Isa. 44:1). Isaiah 43:10 contains the most explicit statement of God's salvific purpose in the election of national Israel: "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that25 ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he." Election's salvific purpose climaxes in the person of the Servant of Yahweh. He is chosen to bring Jacob back to Yahweh (Isa. 49:5), to be a light to the Gentiles (49:6), to be a covenant for the people (49:8), to set captives free (49:9) and to suffer for man's salvation (Isa. 52:13-53:12).
Divine election may also have as its purpose the bestowment of blessing. Jeremiah 18:9-10 speaks of God's choice to build, plant, and bless a nation or kingdom without any specific task attending that choice. Reflection of God's character is the final purpose for election that is explicitly mentioned in Scripture.26 God chose Israel to be a holy nation (Exo. 19:6; Deut. 7:6; 14:2) and to show forth His glory (Isa. 43:7)
Service and salvation, as purposes of election, blend in the election of Abraham and his seed.22 Abraham was chosen to be a blessing to all nations (Gen. 12:3; 18:18)23 and in order that he should instruct his children to walk in Yahweh's way (Gen. 18:19).24 The nation of Israel was the elect instrument through which God intended to mediate the promised Abrahamic blessing (salvation) to the whole world; thus Yahweh calls them "a kingdom of priests" (Exo. 19:6), "witnesses" (Isa. 43:10, 12), and "My servant" (Isa. 44:1). Isaiah 43:10 contains the most explicit statement of God's salvific purpose in the election of national Israel: "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that25 ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he." Election's salvific purpose climaxes in the person of the Servant of Yahweh. He is chosen to bring Jacob back to Yahweh (Isa. 49:5), to be a light to the Gentiles (49:6), to be a covenant for the people (49:8), to set captives free (49:9) and to suffer for man's salvation (Isa. 52:13-53:12).
Divine election may also have as its purpose the bestowment of blessing. Jeremiah 18:9-10 speaks of God's choice to build, plant, and bless a nation or kingdom without any specific task attending that choice. Reflection of God's character is the final purpose for election that is explicitly mentioned in Scripture.26 God chose Israel to be a holy nation (Exo. 19:6; Deut. 7:6; 14:2) and to show forth His glory (Isa. 43:7)
God chose no one based on what we can give Him. I am sorry you misunderstand these concepts.
Faith, and repentance for that matter, are gifts from God. So, He does not save people because they have faith He gives them faith so He can save them. We must be careful about building a theology on one verse, or half a verse in some cases. We must use the whole council of Scripture.
I do not see a mystery. I see only grace and mercy being meted out by a sovereign God according to His perfect will.
Faith, and repentance for that matter, are gifts from God. So, He does not save people because they have faith He gives them faith so He can save them. We must be careful about building a theology on one verse, or half a verse in some cases. We must use the whole council of Scripture.
I do not see a mystery. I see only grace and mercy being meted out by a sovereign God according to His perfect will.
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