Summary of TULIP After Reading This Site for Over Eight Years

[Reynolds]

A-HA!

This was my objection with the TULIP chart thread (since closed). However, I assure you, the descriptions I've given here are the result of reading them here on BB as presented by Calvinists over the years. Again, I realize there are a wide spectrum of beliefs within Calvinism, but these are positions given by Calvinists, not something I'm claiming Calvinism is.

Did some one say man is innocent? Of course man is a sinful creature but not one of them is unsavable. Even a Calvinist can be saved. Although lately it seems they are not so kind as to admit this
MB

I am not sure that all men are savable. I would have to remain true to my C.A. roots and say that the call does not go out to every man. The Calvinist definitely have that part right.

 

[Dave G]

I am not sure that all men are savable.

Awww, Reynolds.

All men are "savable".
He simply saves the "savable" ones He wants to save.

The rest I liked.

 

[Reformed1689]

Yet another absurd assertion, with God compelling those He desires to be saved, rather than inviting through the good news. Pay no attention to the avalanche of misdirection.

Summary : You were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and there is nothing you can do to alter that outcome of your life or the lives of ;your loved ones, thus Calvinism boils down to the doctrines of futility.

They say God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, but that does not make God the author of sin. So right off the bat, advocates must engage in cognitive dissonance.

I love how you didn't even address what I said. Typical @Van

Well, actually, it IS. There 's no evidence that Ethiopian was "predestinated".

Sure there is, the fact that he accepted Christ is evidence of this.

He gives us free will to love him or not, Sin is doing our will in disobedience to His will. He will not end free will or our love ends as well

Calvinists affirm Free Will. How many times do we need to tell you this? It is not a question of free will. It is a question of ability.

 

[MB]

So, it seems to me that many of the people that are making these charges aren't really listening or reading and understanding the "Calvinists" properly.

It's not that they don't understand Dave. Me as an example.I do not believe in Calvinism simply because I do understand it and there is nothing true about it. The Bible disproves Calvinism It does not support it. So much so that it is my hope and prayers that I might convince you of the truth of Scripture. It is so important because your life and others depends on it. I'm praying for you Dave.
MB

 

[Squire Robertsson]

After three pages, I think some don't really understand the OP. What In the Light stated were his observations of positions various and sundry proponents of the Calvinist model have set forth. Said proponents don't always agree with each other in the details.

 

[Reformed1689]

It's not that they don't understand Dave. Me as an example.I do not believe in Calvinism simply because I do understand it and there is nothing true about it. The Bible disproves Calvinism It does not support it. So much so that it is my hope and prayers that I might convince you of the truth of Scripture. It is so important because your life and others depends on it. I'm praying for you Dave.
MB

Here's the thing, the Calvinists would say the exact same thing about you. So who is right?

 

[MB]

Here's the thing, the Calvinists would say the exact same thing about you. So who is right?

The Bible and God
MB

 

[Dave G]

It is a question of ability.

I would have to say that since the nature is to sin, that that means it is a question of ability.

Man cannot choose against his nature.
From the point of view of the will, I'd say "unwilling", but it goes deeper to "inability", depending upon how one looks at it.

" And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." ( John 5:40 ).

 

[Reformed1689]

The Bible and God
MB

Yes, and we both say that the Bible and God agree with our position so who is right?

 

[Reformed]

After three pages, I think some don't really understand the OP. What In the Light stated were his observations of positions various and sundry proponents of the Calvinist model have set forth. Said proponents don't always agree with each other in the details.

We are all entitled to our own opinion.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Dave G]

After three pages, I think some don't really understand the OP.

I think I got his point.

Here is my understanding of Calvinism, Reformed Theology, Monergism, the Doctrines of Grace, or whatever the adherents are calling it this week.

It's his understanding of what "Calvinists" believe.

I then tried to constructively critique it, and ended up confessing that I think he got most of it right...even though I think he's also a bit off on some things.

 

[MB]

Yes, and we both say that the Bible and God agree with our position so who is right?

The only right way for man to know the truth is not to analyze what scripture says but allow scripture to be understood as it is with out reinterpreting it to fit what men have told them before. Scripture doesn't need our help in interpretation God did a wonderful in explaining to man exactly what we should be doing with it. This is believing God's Word as it is written not what we assume or think about it, or in someone eles's opinion of it.

The biggest reason there are so many different sects of Christianity is because People want to pick it apart looking for the reason that would please them selves. The pleasing is right there in front of them but they do not recognize it. So they start analyzing it to make it more appealing to them selves. What man may think is appealing can lead them to Hell.

When I read the Bible I always pray and ask for clear understanding. When I run in to a passage that puzzles me. I don't allow my self to imagine what it's really saying. I pray and ask God to reveal it to me. I do not ask my Pastor. I trust God to let me know. I trust only God.
MB

 

[loDebar]

I love how you didn't even address what I said. Typical @Van

Sure there is, the fact that he accepted Christ is evidence of this.

Calvinists affirm Free Will. How many times do we need to tell you this? It is not a question of free will. It is a question of ability.

You are not regular Calvinist, read the board. Read Calvin. You are not the same as Calvin or Calvinist on free will

We might agree with you on free will and/or ability, Calvin does not

 

[InTheLight]

The lost don't hear the Gospel and become saved Roby.
The lost think that the preaching of the cross is foolishness.


The Gospel is also hid to them that are lost:

So, not only is it foolishness to the lost, but it is hid to them.
The lost cannot believe the Gospel and be saved by it...only the saved can.


They couldn't "hear" His words.
They didn't have "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15 ).

“Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!”
Acts 28:28 NKJV



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[Dave G]

“Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!”

They did "hear" it and still do:

" to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." ( Romans 1:7 ) <----- There's that "calling" again.

" In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," ( Ephesians 1:13 ). <--- "Hearing".

" For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;" ( Colossians 1:5 ). <---- "Hearing".

The Roman, Ephesian and Colossian believers "heard" the Gospel.
They didn't think it was foolishness, but instead, to them it was the power of God.
Why?

Because they were saved.
Because they had "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15 ) their "calling" ( Romans 8:29-30, 2 Peter 1:10 ).
Faith then came as a result of their "hearing ( Romans 10:17 ) and they confessed with their mouths and believed in their hearts that Jesus rose from the dead ( Romans 10:8-10 ).

They were Gentiles, and I think that there were some Jews mixed in as well.
Timothy was half Jew.

So, why don't men "hear" the Gospel?
Again:

" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).

Two groups of people in humanity...

Those that have "ears to hear", and those that do not.

Those that are saved, and those that are lost.
Those that are of God, and those that are of the devil.
"Wheat" and "tares".
"Sheep" and "goats".
Blessed of the Father, and cursed.
Spiritual and natural.
Dead in sins and alive unto God.

Believers and unbelievers.

 

[Aaron]

Here is my understanding of Calvinism, Reformed Theology, Monergism, the Doctrines of Grace, or whatever the adherents are calling it this week.

Total Depravity
Human beings are so helplessly affected by the consequences of original sin that they are incapable of righteousness. In fact, they hate God (and God hates them) and humans are always and unchangeably sinful; the human will is not free, rather it is totally enslaved by sin; we can only choose evil, and do so without compunction. No unregenerate, unelected person can do good deeds. God must “zap” the sinner with a new heart so that he can receive God’s grace and gain the ability to repent. This is called regeneration. At some point in the future, could be seconds, could be weeks, could be years, God then gifts the sinner with the gift of faith so that the sinner can believe everything that God just did to him against his filthy, sinful will.


Unconditional Election
Because we can only choose evil, God, from before the world was created, chose or elected a minority of people to be made righteous and be saved from Hell. These elect people were chosen completely at random, according to God’s good pleasure. What that good pleasure might be is a mystery. As a consequence of electing some, God chose to condemn all other unelected people and they will be sent to Hell. God makes his power known by creating people meant solely for destruction. This is done for God’s glory.


Limited Atonement
The effects of the atonement, whereby God forgives sinners of their sin, is limited only to those particular people that he chose from before the foundation of the world. The gift of faith is given only to these particular, elected people and secures their salvation. Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world, but only for the elect. BTW, when the word “world” is used in the Bible in reference to salvation, it means “the elect” and not “everyone”.


Irresistible Grace
While anyone may hear the gospel the Holy Spirit only extends an inward call to the elect. This call cannot and will not be rejected. There is no cooperation by man in this process whatsoever. It will happen no matter what. After God irresistibly calls the sinner, after he creates a new heart in them, after he gifts them with faith, after he causes them to repent, THEN they have free will.


Perseverance of the Saints
All those particular people who are chosen by God from before the creation of the world, irresistibly called by the Spirit, given a new heart, gifted with faith, caused to repent against their natural will, and peculiarly atoned by Christ, are saved from Hell, and will be eternally kept in the faith by the gift of faith that God has given them. A good way to know if someone is truly saved is if they perform good works. If someone does not perform good works and strive with their best effort not to sin, they probably weren’t elect to begin with, in fact they were chosen for damnation, and when they go to Hell it will be for God’s glory.

I agree: Some of the things said by folks professing to extol the virtues of the Doctrines of Grace are enough to warn anyone.

But...

Let me sum up your implied objection: Some people are better than others and that's why some people choose Christ, and others do not.

 

[Aaron]

I will now compensate for the distortions in each caricature with sincere milk from the Scriptures. (It's easy. A child could do it.)

Hint: right click on each link and open in new window. (Not sure why that isn't built into this.)

Here is my understanding of Calvinism, Reformed Theology, Monergism, the Doctrines of Grace, or whatever the adherents are calling it this week.

Total Depravity
Human beings are so helplessly affected by the consequences of original sin that they are incapable of righteousness. In fact, they hate God (and God hates them) and humans are always and unchangeably sinful; the human will is not free, rather it is totally enslaved by sin; we can only choose evil, and do so without compunction. No unregenerate, unelected person can do good deeds. God must “zap” the sinner with a new heart so that he can receive God’s grace and gain the ability to repent. This is called regeneration. At some point in the future, could be seconds, could be weeks, could be years, God then gifts the sinner with the gift of faith so that the sinner can believe everything that God just did to him against his filthy, sinful will.

Galatians 5:9
James 2:10

Unconditional Election

Because we can only choose evil, God, from before the world was created, chose or elected a minority of people to be made righteous and be saved from Hell. These elect people were chosen completely at random, according to God’s good pleasure. What that good pleasure might be is a mystery. As a consequence of electing some, God chose to condemn all other unelected people and they will be sent to Hell. God makes his power known by creating people meant solely for destruction. This is done for God’s glory.

Romans 9:16
1 John 4:19

Limited Atonement

The effects of the atonement, whereby God forgives sinners of their sin, is limited only to those particular people that he chose from before the foundation of the world. The gift of faith is given only to these particular, elected people and secures their salvation. Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world, but only for the elect. BTW, when the word “world” is used in the Bible in reference to salvation, it means “the elect” and not “everyone”.

Matthew 7:23

Irresistible Grace

While anyone may hear the gospel the Holy Spirit only extends an inward call to the elect. This call cannot and will not be rejected. There is no cooperation by man in this process whatsoever. It will happen no matter what. After God irresistibly calls the sinner, after he creates a new heart in them, after he gifts them with faith, after he causes them to repent, THEN they have free will.

John 1:13

Perseverance of the Saints

All those particular people who are chosen by God from before the creation of the world, irresistibly called by the Spirit, given a new heart, gifted with faith, caused to repent against their natural will, and peculiarly atoned by Christ, are saved from Hell, and will be eternally kept in the faith by the gift of faith that God has given them. A good way to know if someone is truly saved is if they perform good works. If someone does not perform good works and strive with their best effort not to sin, they probably weren’t elect to begin with, in fact they were chosen for damnation, and when they go to Hell it will be for God’s glory.

1 John 3:9

 

[kyredneck]

Let me sum up your argument: Some people are better than others and that's why some people choose Christ, and others do not.

...don't forget the part about non-Cals arguing back to God.

 

[37818]

The lost don't hear the Gospel and become saved Roby.

I have to disagree. Of course the lost do not hear the gospel without God's intervention. ". . . if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; . . ." -- 2 Timothy 2:25. Now if you mean those who who in the end perish, I agree (Matthew 7:21-23).

 

[InTheLight]

Let me sum up your implied objection: Some people are better than others and that's why some people choose Christ, and others do not.

That is a solid #4, that one right there!




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