do you believe in original sin?
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Supralapasarian "Hyper-Calvinism" Defended
- Thread starter KenH
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Remember this brothers, we all choose what we wish to be. No one impels or compels us. We may delude ourselves that it is so but it is not. The same wind that blows a ship on the rocks could blow it to safe harbor. In short, it is not the wind, it is the set of the sail. A man who denies that is a weakling who wishes to blame others for his life.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Okie Dokie. Let me be clear for you: Do I believe that the Bible teaches that God has ordained EVERYTHING that has and that will take place over time?
I tell you - emphatically -
It is extremely awful to paint a picture of God in which He is no better than the devil himself.
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Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
“This decree is as immutable and eternal as His holiness.” This certainly does not speak very well of the holiness of God!
We read in the Bible that God does change His mind and reverse His decrees when the circumstances make it appropriate for Him to do so.
Genesis 6:6. And the Lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
Exodus 32:14. And the Lord changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people.
Jonah 3:10. When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it.
Jeremiah 18:7. At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it,
8. but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it.
9. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
10. but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.
Jeremiah 26:3. It may be that they will listen, all of them, and will turn from their evil way, that I may change my mind about the disaster that I intend to bring on them because of their evil doings.
Jeremiah 26:13. Now therefore amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God, and the Lord will change his mind about the disaster that he has pronounced against you.
Jeremiah 26:19. Did King Hezekiah of Judah and all Judah actually put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and did not the Lord change his mind about the disaster that he had pronounced against them? But we are about to bring great disaster on ourselves!”
In all of these passages, the identical Hebrew word is used in reference to God changing his mind. Should we believe a 16th century reformer who apparently had not bothered to read the Bible, or should we believe the Bible. That is a very easy choice for me to make—and I thank God that I am free in Christ to make that choice!
All quotations from Scripture are from the NRSV unless otherwise noted.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
KY quoting text in context is not cherry picking. If you think what I post is then show the correction.
Or perhaps you just do not like it when I point out the errors in your posts.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
The Hebrew verb "nâcham", has its root meaning, literally, "to draw the breath, to pity, to grieve"
When used in niphal, as in the passages that reference God, it means "to lament, to grieve, to pity", for the actions of others.
The passages that you quote, are countered by verses like,
Numbers 23:19, "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" (ESV)
1 Samuel 15:29, "And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he is not a man, that he should have regret.”
or, the NRSV which you use, "Moreover the Glory of Israel will not recant or change his mind; for he is not a mortal, that he should change his mind."
It is not as simple as "God changing His Mind", as though what He had originally planned to do, did not work out!
A good example is the Book of Jonah. God sent Jonah to proclaim a certain destruction of the city of Nineveh, the Assyrian capital, which was exceedingly wicked. However, in this Message of certain doom, God also included a Message of Hope and Deliverance. Had the people rejected what Jonah had told them from God, God would have destroyed them. However, instead, the king "saw the light", and commanded that all, from the greatest to the smallest, should turn from their sinful and wicked ways (repent), and throw themselves on the Mercy of God, which is clear in chapter 3, verses 5-9. In verse 10 we read, that, because of their actions, "And God saw their works, that they were turned from their evil way: and God had mercy with regard to the evil which he had said that he would do to them, and he did it not" (Douay-Rheims). They did according to what God had required of them, and God, in His Infinite Wisdom and Kindness and Mercy, "spared them" from their certain destruction.
This is very clear from passages like Ezekiel 18:
21 “But suppose the wicked stop doing all the sins they have done and obey all my rules and do what is fair and right. Then they will surely live; they will not die. 22 Their sins will be forgotten. Because they have done what is right, they will live. 23 I do not really want the wicked to die, says the Lord God. I want them to stop their bad ways and live.
24 “But suppose good people stop doing good and do wrong and do the same hateful things the wicked do. Will they live? All their good acts will be forgotten, because they became unfaithful. They have sinned, so they will die because of their sins.
25 “But you say, ‘What the Lord does isn’t fair.’ Listen, people of Israel. I am fair. It is what you do that is not fair! 26 When good people stop doing good and do wrong, they will die because of it. They will die, because they did wrong. 27 When the wicked stop being wicked and do what is fair and right, they will save their lives. 28 Because they thought about it and stopped doing all the sins they had done, they will surely live; they will not die. 29 But the people of Israel still say, ‘What the Lord does isn’t fair.’ People of Israel, I am fair. It is what you do that is not fair.
30 “So I will judge you, people of Israel; I will judge each of you by what you do, says the Lord God. Change your hearts and stop all your sinning so sin will not bring your ruin. 31 Get rid of all the sins you have done, and get for yourselves a new heart and a new way of thinking. Why do you want to die, people of Israel? 32 I do not want anyone to die, says the Lord God, so change your hearts and lives so you may live.
God cannot, and does not "change His Mind"; but does Act according to His own Wise Counsel, and Commands. When we humans CHOOSE what is right as Commanded by the Lord, He Acts according to His own Words, Doing what He intended in the first place. We have the "options" given by the Lord, and they all have consequences. To OBEY the Lord, or to DISOBEY the Lord, and what follows is what God had already said He would do.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
One ship sails East
And another West
By the self-same winds that blow.
'Tis the set of the sails
And not the gales,
That tells the way we go.
Like the winds of the sea
Are the waves of time,
As we journey along through life.
'Tis the set of the soul,
That determines the goal,
And not the calm or the strife.
Ella Wheeler Wilcox
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
No Bible verses?
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
In Numbers 23:19, the speaker is Balaam speaking the words given to him by יהוה who has blessed Israel, and Balak is attempting to get Balaam to curse Israel. Balaam insists that,
God is not a human being, that he should lie,
or a mortal, that he should change his mind.
Has he promised, and will he not do it?
Has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
Balaam’s oracle in vv. 18-24 is a poem and needs to be understood and interpreted as poetry rather than prose. Timothy R. Ashley, on page 424 of his 2022 commentary on the Hebrew text of Numbers, writes that God has a real relationship with His creation and therefore He responds to changes in human behavior and intercession.
In 1 Samuel 15:29, the speaker is Samuel and he is telling Saul, “The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you this very day, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you.” In other words, ‘it is a done deal!’ Moreover, we have as posted above seven instances in which the Bible says that God changed His mind in response to changes in human behavior and intercession.
Jonah 3:5. And the people of Nineveh believed God; they proclaimed a fast, and everyone, great and small, put on sackcloth.
6. When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7. Then he had a proclamation made in Nineveh: "By the decree of the king and his nobles: No human being or animal, no herd or flock, shall taste anything. They shall not feed, nor shall they drink water.
8. Human beings and animals shall be covered with sackcloth, and they shall cry mightily to God. All shall turn from their evil ways and from the violence that is in their hands.
9. Who knows? God may relent and change his mind; he may turn from his fierce anger, so that we do not perish."
10. When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it. (NRSV)
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Is Numbers 23:19 part of the Inspired, Infallible Word of Almighty God?
From the book of Reality… idealism be damned.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Nothing was intended except that it's one of my favorite poems. When we were raising out kids we had a painting hanging up of a sailing ship with those two verses on it. But since you asked, Daniel 1:8 is an example of the concept when he purposed in his heart that he would not eat the kings meat. So is Joseph in Egypt, never losing his faith in God, so is Paul saying " for me to live is Christ", so is the three Hebrew men saying that even if they are not delivered they will not bow down to the image. I'll stop with Romans 12:2 which tells us how to set our sails as it were.
KenH
Well-Known Member
The Bible certainly does, without a doubt, teach that anyone whom God saves has repentance toward God and and faith toward Christ Jesus(Acts of the Apostles 20:21). They come to such at some point during their life on this earth as God chose them before the foundation of the world and gave them to His Son to be their Surety, He fulfilled the law perfectly on their behalf, their sins were imputed to Him and He paid their sin debt at the cross, and His perfect righteousness was imputed to them. At some point in their lives, all of those whom God chose before the foundation of the world, are brought under the hearing of the gospel of Christ and the Holy Spirit regenerates them, and as a result of the Holy Spirit regenerating them, God grants them the gifts of faith in Christ and repentance of dead works.
Acts of the Apostles 11:18 Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Acts of the Apostles 13:48 As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Acts of the Apostles 16:14 Whose heart the Lord opened.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.
(emphasis mine)
As Jonah said, "Salvation is of the LORD." (Jonah 2:9)
KenH
Well-Known Member
As God said, "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself." (Psalms 50:21)
The opposition being expressed in this thread by those who are opposed to God being sovereign reminds me of the ancient Greeks, who worshipped gods of their own imagination. Their gods were not sovereign, but were pretty much nothing more than extra-strong humans(in movies nowadays they are called "super-heroes"), who could not always achieve what they desire. Which is a lot like what those opposed to the sovereignty of God seem to be indicating, as they also think that the God of the Bible is, at most, in their view, only sometimes sovereign, and cannot always achieve what He desires; that in order to achieve what He desires, He has to depend upon the creatures that He created to give Him what He desires.
The opposition to the sovereignty of God in this thread reminds me of a couple of verses in the Bible:
Acts of the Apostles 7:54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth.
Acts of the Apostles 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord.
The opposition being expressed in this thread by those who are opposed to God being sovereign reminds me of the ancient Greeks, who worshipped gods of their own imagination. Their gods were not sovereign, but were pretty much nothing more than extra-strong humans(in movies nowadays they are called "super-heroes"), who could not always achieve what they desire. Which is a lot like what those opposed to the sovereignty of God seem to be indicating, as they also think that the God of the Bible is, at most, in their view, only sometimes sovereign, and cannot always achieve what He desires; that in order to achieve what He desires, He has to depend upon the creatures that He created to give Him what He desires.
The opposition to the sovereignty of God in this thread reminds me of a couple of verses in the Bible:
Acts of the Apostles 7:54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth.
Acts of the Apostles 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Totally MISUSED, and DESTROYED by the Words of God Incarnate, the Lord Jesus Christ in John 3:16-18, where He speaks of God's Saving Love for the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!
KenH
Well-Known Member
It is incorrect to assume that "world" automatically means every human being.
Example 1: A common human example is when a bad event in someone's life is described as "It shattered his world."
"World" does not mean the earth now exists in fragments or that every human being was affected by the bad event.
Example 2: And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. (Luke 2:1)
"World" in this context means the world that was under the control of Rome, not every human being, such as, for example, what is today called North America and South America.
Example 3: And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. (1 John 5:19)
"World" in this context means they who are unbelievers, as believers("we who are of God") are contrasted with "the whole world" that lies wickedness. Believers are not lying in wickedness.
Thus, the context of John 3:16 is referring to "the world" of those whom God chose before the foundation of the world and gave to His Son to be their Surety from among, not just the Jews, but from among Jews and Gentiles "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." (Revelation 5:9)
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Man in his free will makes choices that he will be held accountable for.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
What world is under the control of God? @KenH you are misusing the word of God. Yes world can mean different things but you have to look at the context. Stop reading into the text what you want to find.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
John Calvin on John 3:16
“That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life” (emphasis mine)
lexical evidence on the use of “kósmos” used in John 3:16.
J H Thayer:
“the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race. Jn. i.10, 29, iii.16sq”
W F Arndt and F W Gingrich:
“of all mankind, but especially of believers as objects of God’s love”
J Parkhurst:
“the world, i.e., the whole race of mankind, both believers and unbelievers, both good and bad.”
E Robinson:
“the world for the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind. John.1.29, 3:16”
Hermann Cremer:
“It denotes the ordered entirety of God’s creation, humanity itself”
The NIV Theological Dictionary of New Testament Words:
“in Jn. kosmos almost always denotes the world of humans, esp. the world of sinful humanity that opposes God, resists the redeeming work of the Son, does not believe in Him”
G Kittel and G Friedrich:
“All the meanings of kosmos come together in the usage of the Fourth Gospel. Not just the Prologue uses kosmos for the world in the sense of the universe”
W E Vine:
“the human race, mankind”
A T Robertson:
The world (ton kosmon). The whole cosmos of men, including Gentiles, the whole human race. This universal aspect of God's love appears also in 2Co 5:19; Rom 5:8”
M Vincent:
“The sum-total of humanity in the world; the human race”
et gloria Dei est
KenH
Well-Known Member
Everything that God created is under God's control. The Bible is quite clear that God is always sovereign over His creation, and not just sometimes.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Calvin on Mark 14:24, where Jesus says that His death is a “ransom for many”.
“Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race”
The context of these comments by Calvin, are very important.
“And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 23 Then He took the cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. 24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.” NKJV
This includes Judas
“Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race”
The context of these comments by Calvin, are very important.
“And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 23 Then He took the cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. 24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.” NKJV
This includes Judas
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