Supralapasarian "Hyper-Calvinism" Defended

[KenH]

Since @Silverhair accused me of cherry-picking, I am sharing this article which is a much more thorough defense of the absolute total sovereignty of God as revealed in God's Word, the Bible.

"First, I would like to present a totally Biblical argument for the supralapsarian position. Second, I will desperately try to not use any extra-biblical logic since this has aroused so many infralapsarians.
...
The first and foremost part of my proposition is that God is intrinsically holy. This holiness cannot be changed nor does it have an end or a beginning. The second part of my proposition is that God, in His holiness, has an immutable decree for all events in time and outside of time. This decree is as immutable and eternal as His holiness. This decree providentially permeates, and by God's infinite power is the causal factor of, every facet of all events in time and outside of time.

The third but less significant part of my proposition is that the knowledge of the supralapsarian position is an extremely important part of the Christian life and the worship of God. Within this part of the proposition we should note that we are strongly admonished through examples and commands in Scripture to praise God for the good and the bad that He brings. Ultimately this is because they all work together for good to them that love God and are the called according to His purpose. Therefore, I assert that the active, ineffable power of God over good and evil, righteousness and sin, to fulfill His decree, is to be praised by the Christian. God's power is not merely an attribute."

- rest at Supralapsarianism and Its Practical Implications - Ward Fenley (pristinegrace.org)

 

[Silverhair]

Since @Silverhair accused me of cherry-picking, I am sharing this article which is a much more thorough defense of the absolute total sovereignty of God as revealed in the God's Word, the Bible.

"First, I would like to present a totally Biblical argument for the supralapsarian position. Second, I will desperately try to not use any extra-biblical logic since this has aroused so many infralapsarians.
...
The first and foremost part of my proposition is that God is intrinsically holy. This holiness cannot be changed nor does it have an end or a beginning. The second part of my proposition is that God, in His holiness, has an immutable decree for all events in time and outside of time. This decree is as immutable and eternal as His holiness. This decree providentially permeates, and by God's infinite power is the causal factor of, every facet of all events in time and outside of time.

The third but less significant part of my proposition is that the knowledge of the supralapsarian position is an extremely important part of the Christian life and the worship of God. Within this part of the proposition we should note that we are strongly admonished through examples and commands in Scripture to praise God for the good and the bad that He brings. Ultimately this is because they all work together for good to them that love God and are the called according to His purpose. Therefore, I assert that the active, ineffable power of God over good and evil, righteousness and sin, to fulfill His decree, is to be praised by the Christian. God's power is not merely an attribute."

- rest at Supralapsarianism and Its Practical Implications - Ward Fenley (pristinegrace.org)

What I find most strange is that those that use "absolute total sovereignty" then turn around and deny His sovereignty. He is only allowed to have the type of sovereignty that they give Him. Very strange indeed.

I find many people want to make God fit into the box of their making. We see this when we use terms like supralapsarian or infralapsarian, Calvinist or Arminian and the list goes on. When did people stop believing that we are children of God through faith?

God gave us a book that anyone can understand, theologians have twisted that book so that no one can understand it.

 

[kyredneck]

Since @Silverhair accused me of cherry-picking

I wouldn't lose any sleep over any of @Silverhair's jeers and taunts. He does the very thing he accuses you of.

 

[KenH]

I wouldn't lose any sleep over any of @Silverhair's jeers and taunts. He does the very thing he accuses you of.

Oh, he just prompts me to continue to share the glorious gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Van]

Good Grief!
God is holy, but that is not at issue.

God is all powerful, but that fact does not say just how God has chosen to employ that power, whether or not He has set before humanity the actual opportunity to put his or her faith totally in Christ for salvation and lordship.

 

[37818]

God the Father's omniscience precedes His decrees. And it cannot not precede them.

 

[kyredneck]

God the Father's omniscience precedes His decrees. And it cannot not precede them.

???

 

[Silverhair]

I wouldn't lose any sleep over any of @Silverhair's jeers and taunts. He does the very thing he accuses you of.

When I point out the errors in your theology I do not expect that you will agree with me but when you ignore scripture you are in disagreement with God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh, he just prompts me to continue to share the glorious gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ.

Then that’s a good thing… so just so I know, how can you justify your stance on double predestination? You don’t have to answer if you feel it compromises you

 

[Silverhair]

Oh, he just prompts me to continue to share the glorious gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ.

Now if you were just sharing the truth of scripture that would be good. Your Hyper-cal view is not biblical but I can see some agree with your errant view which, sadly, says a lot about them.

 

[KenH]

how can you justify your stance on double predestination?

It is what God has proclaimed in His Word, the Bible.

 

[KenH]

Now if you were just sharing the truth of scripture that would be good.

When I share verses from God's Word, the Bible, you accuse me of cherry-picking.

 

[37818]

It is what God has proclaimed in His Word, the Bible.

Where does God do double predestination in His word?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is what God has proclaimed in His Word, the Bible.

I believe you are being deceived by this “Absolute Predestination of all things” stance you are saddled with. God’s child may in fact live in disobedience to God’s revealed will for his life, and fail to glorify the Lord who redeemed him in this world. But that does not nullify that child from being a child of God. Evidence the Rich Young Man, Lot, Samson, the Prodigal Son etc., but they are still children of God. In this time continued life they slowly learn who’s the boss, their Lord and then they behave accordingly. This is Temporal Salvation and the hand of God is present in it. Can we call that providence? Predestination is Gods actions to save the elect so they realize eternal salvation. So one scenario is again temporal and the other is eternal.

I was a carnal Christian for a long length of time and the Holy Ghost woke me up (provided me a conscience and eyes to see) but I’ve made many mistakes along the way and in time always found my way back to Christ principally because I learned He has always been there for me (in the fire and the flood).

 

[KenH]

Where does God do double predestination in His word?

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[Silverhair]

When I share verses from God's Word, the Bible, you accuse me of cherry-picking.

When you share verses out of context that you think support your errant view that is cherry picking. Context does not support our view of meticulous determination.

Until I came on this board I had not seen such abuse of scripture. I had dealt with calvinist before but some of those on here make them pale by comparison.

I know that I will never cause any of you hard core calvinists to change your mind but perhaps I can provide the truth so that others will not be misled by your distorted views.

Just so you understand, I do not dislike calvinist's per se, just the errant theology that they put forward.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

When you share verses out of context that you think support your errant view that is cherry picking. Context does not support our view of meticulous determination.

Until I came on this board I had not seen such abuse of scripture. I had dealt with calvinist before but some of those on here make them pale by comparison.

I know that I will never cause any of you hard core calvinists to change your mind but perhaps I can provide the truth so that others will not be misled by your distorted views.

Just so you understand, I do not dislike calvinist's per se, just the errant theology that they put forward.

I feel the same way about Methodists. But truly, what happens when we use doctrines as a means of splitting churches… particularly these blended churches that have multi doctrinal congregations, I’m certain tensions are high and a spark could cause a war at any time. We have got to be very careful not to piss off someone who doesn’t interpret the scriptures as we do. Now this form in particular has many different opinions that can be presented and discussed at length but let’s not vilify the other brother for his position, rather seek to understand, respect and at times correct… and do it in love, not bitterness.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Ken you know of course that the image of Hyper Calvinism is often likened to a puppet and a puppeteer, with absolutely no free will mobility on the creature puppets part. So, do you really see that as the true sinario that plays out between God & mankind?

 

[Silverhair]

I feel the same way about Methodists. But truly, what happens when we use doctrines as a means of splitting churches… particularly these blended churches that have multi doctrinal congregations, I’m certain tensions are high and a spark could cause a war at any time. We have got to be very careful not to piss off someone who doesn’t interpret the scriptures as we do. Now this form in particular has many different opinions that can be presented and discussed at length but let’s not vilify the other brother for his position, rather seek to understand, respect and at times correct… and do it in love, not bitterness.

I am not trying be combative but at the same time I am not willing to just pass things by. When I point out the errors in relation to scripture and the misuse of such it is meant in a corrective way. Although I may not come across that way by times.

I have seen the corrosive effect that calvinism can have on a church. A once vibrant church that called a "non calvinist" but really calvinist minister has now become a shell of what it was.

 

[KenH]

@Earth Wind and Fire You want to know if I see the Biblical scenario as being that the creature has absolutely no free will? Here is my answer: