T, U, L and I of the Tulip

[Van]

Four of the five points of the TULIP are false doctrines according to my view of scripture. Proponents of these views claim other equally viable views are possible.

Lets take them in the order preferred by Calvinists, starting with "Total Spiritual Inability" and crank through to "Irresistible Grace."

The doctrine of total spiritual inability claims that the Bible teaches fallen natural men of flesh, before they are regenerated, cannot respond in a way to the gospel message such that God would credit that faith as righteousness.

They say that no one can understand the gospel message until they are regenerated. Paul in Romans 3:11-12 certainly says "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." Calvinists read into this passage, "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God at any time before regeneration My view reads into the passage "no one understands, no one seeks God when they are sinning.

Two radically differing views. I claim my view is contextual because what Paul is doing is citing OT scripture to make the case we all sin and fall short of the glory of God, we are all "under sin." So Paul's point is that through the Law comes the knowledge that we are sinners, that we are under sin, for by the Law no flesh is justified.

But lets agree, either view is possible when viewing the passage in isolation. But then we have Matthew 23:13 which has men entering heaven. In order to enter heaven, they must have been regenerated to respond to the call of the gospel, if the doctrine of total spiritual inability is true.

However, they are blocked by false doctrine from false teachers. So if they were entering heaven without being altered by "Irresistible grace" they were unregenerate men responding to the call of the gospel. Therefore this verse supports my understanding of Romans 3:11-12 and nullifies the Calvinist view.

Next we have the doctrine of Unconditional Election which asserts God chose individuals before creation not based on any characteristic of the individual such as faith in the truth.
Calvinists would claim Ephesians 1:4 says we were chosen individually before creation, before we had done anything good or bad, just as the two babies were chosen in Romans 9:11.

God certainly chose the Word to be His Lamb, His Redeemer before creation (1 Peter 1:19-20), and therefore everyone the Lamb would redeem was chosen corporately in Him. But Paul teaches in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that we were chosen through faith in the truth. That would make our individual election for salvation a conditional election occurring during our lifetime. This is consistent with Romans 4:5 which says God credits our faith as righteousness.

And again, the "unconditional election" of the twins occurred during their lifetime, not before creation, and they were not chosen for salvation but for fulfilling His promise of blessing the descendants not of the flesh but of the chosen children of the promise. Therefore it does not depend on the man that wills to be saved, but upon God who has mercy on whom He has mercy. Therefore scripture provides support for conditional election based on fulfilling God's purpose, and that election is described in many verses such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Peter 2:9-10 and 1 Corinthians 1:26-30.

Next we have the doctrine of "Limited Atonement" which asserts Christ died only for the elect and did not die for mankind. However the bible teaches God desires all men be saved, so it is illogical for Christ not have provided the means of salvation for all mankind. We also have verses which teach Christ died for the church, i.e. the elect, but that does not argue against the idea Christ died for all mankind, including the elect, i.e. not either/or but both. 1 John 2:2 says Christ is the propitiation for the whole world.

And finally we have the doctrine of "Irresistible Grace" where Calvinism claims God makes alive (quickens) people before they are spiritually placed in Christ. However, Ephesians 2:5 says we were made alive together with Christ. So outside of Christ, separated from Christ we are dead, but once put in Christ, we are together with Christ and are alive.

At the end of the day, we can see that alternate views of verses cited as supporting Calvinism are possible, removing any actual support, and at the same time we can see verse after verse that directly teaches Calvinism is not true.

 

[Luke2427]

They say that no one can understand the gospel message until they are regenerated. Paul in Romans 3:11-12 certainly says "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." Calvinists read into this passage, "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God at any time before regeneration My view reads into the passage "no one understands, no one seeks God when they are sinning.

You miss the context, in my opinion. The context is not just Paul showing that all men are sinners. The context emphasizes the terrible degree to which all men are sinners.

All NFL athletes are football players. That is true.
All NFL athletes are TREMENDOUS football players. That is a greater point.

Paul is not just saying that all men are sinners. He is saying that all men are TREMENDOUS sinners. That's the greater point.

Paul begins this in verse 18 of chapter 1.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Of men- not of PARTICULAR men. But of men- period. Mankind is the idea in the language.
Here is the blueletter on that word "men".

1) a human being, whether male or female

a) generically, to include all human individuals

b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order

1) of animals and plants

2) of from God and Christ

3) of the angels

So what Paul is about to describe here is the depravity of mankind. He is not just going to declare that men are sinners. That much is true. He is about to make the greater point- that men are TREMENDOUS sinners.

As Paul continues he is going to describe what tremendous wickedness mankind is capable of committing without intervention.

I am capable of these sins. You are capable of these sins. Only God's providence and restraining grace has kept us back from these sins.

But make no mistake he is describing MANKIND'S TREMENDOUS SINFULNESS.

Paul, after describing idolatry, homosexuality, etc... then says in 2:1-

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

You do them yourself. Paul says to the Jews whose misunderstanding of the Law lead them to self-righteousness- YOU DO THESE THINGS.

As Jesus said, you may not have the courage to ACTUALLY sleep with another woman but "If you look on a woman to lust after her you have committed adultery in your heart."

EVERYBODY is UTTERLY depraved in heart. That is the point Paul is making here.

Jesus said, "Except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees you shall in no wise enter the Kingdom."

There are NONE righteous. That's where Paul is going. But he is not going to be content to just say that nobody is righteous, but that nobody among mankind even ever does good- PERIOD.

We'll get to that.

In 3:9 Paul continues along this vein proving that all men are EXTREMELY sinful in heart by saying:
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

But that's where you want Paul to stop. OK, Paul- yes all men are sinners so all men need a Savior who they can choose to turn to if they want to be saved.

But Paul does NOT stop there. He is continuing to do what he did in Romans 1- not to just declare all men are sinners, but that all men are THOROUGHLY sinful.

Paul continues in verse 10

both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

That's everybody.

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

That's everybody.

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

That's everybody.

12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

That's everybody.

13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

That's everybody.

15Their feet are swift to shed blood:

That's everybody.

16Destruction and misery are in their ways:

That's everybody.

17And the way of peace have they not known:

18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

That's everybody at all times. They have NEVER known the way of peace. THEY are ALWAYS without fear before God.

That's the language.

All unregenerate men, everywhere and at all times are BY NATURE these things.

Opportunity may not present itself for them to get a chance to DO all of these things, but ALL of these things at ALL times are what unregenerate men are by nature.

Paul says, "THERE IS NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."

That NONE there, Van, is just as literal as the "ALL" that Paul uses to declare that ALL men are sinners in need of a Savior.

You don't get to say that Paul is saying that ALL men are sinners but some do seek after God.

No. Context is king. All men are sinners and NONE ever seek after God.

Paul says there in verse 19- Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The point is that all the world are being described in the verses above this statement.

Among "all the world" "every" man with a "mouth" there are NONE that seek after God.
There are NONE that EVER do good. NONE. No one ever does ANY good- ever.

So it is obvious that Paul is not just saying that all men DO SIN. Paul is saying that ALL THE WORLD is SO SINFUL that NONE understands, NONE does good, NO NOT ONE.

That is TOTAL and UTTER and COMPLETE depravity.

And the whole Bible supports this condition of man.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to think that this is saying that no one is seeking after God in those moments when they are committing sins. NONE.

There is EVERY reason to conclude that this is saying that ALL THE WORLD never does good, never understands and NEVER seeks God because ALL THE WORLD is ALWAYS UTTERLY depraved.

This is what the Bible teaches all through it.

Jeremiah 17:9 - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"

Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.

Did you hear that? To ALL UNBELIEVERS NOTHING IS PURE. Nothing. It is ALL impure before you are saved.

Ecclesiastes 9:3 - Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Evil and madness is not just in their hearts INTERMITTENTLY. it is in their heart all the while they live until they go to the dead.

This is what the BIBLE teaches.

Romans 1:28-31 - And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were... foolish
Ephesians 4:17-18 - you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.
Jeremiah 10:7-8,14 - among all the wise ones of the nations and in all their kingdoms there is none like you. They are both stupid and foolish... Every man is stupid and without knowledge
Matthew 15:19 - "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander." (c.f. Mark 7:21-23)
Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from his youth.
Proverbs 10:20 - the heart of the wicked is of little worth.
Proverbs 28:26 - Whoever trusts in his own [heart] is a fool

Nothing could be clearer.

Paul will go on to say in Romans 6

Romans 6:6,16,17,19,20 - We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

That is every man's condition. Not just SEVERELY burdened down with sin- ENSLAVED by it.

Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey...? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed... For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.

This is extremely clear. Before you were made righteous you were completely free from righteousness.

There WAS NONE.

This is the message of the Bible- not Calvinism, or Arminianism. The Word of God.

Proverbs 21:4 says that even the PLOWING of the wicked is sin.

Because wicked men are so depraved even when they plow their fields to feed their families- they sin.

That's what Paul is saying in that verse.

 

[Iconoclast]

I think you were correct Luke...it was and is everybody:thumbs::thumbs::applause:

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Four of the five points of the TULIP are false doctrines according to my view of scripture. Proponents of these views claim other equally viable views are possible.

Lets take them in the order preferred by Calvinists, starting with "Total Spiritual Inability" and crank through to "Irresistible Grace."

The doctrine of total spiritual inability claims that the Bible teaches fallen natural men of flesh, before they are regenerated, cannot respond in a way to the gospel message such that God would credit that faith as righteousness.

They say that no one can understand the gospel message until they are regenerated. Paul in Romans 3:11-12 certainly says "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." Calvinists read into this passage, "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God at any time before regeneration My view reads into the passage "no one understands, no one seeks God when they are sinning.

Two radically differing views. I claim my view is contextual because what Paul is doing is citing OT scripture to make the case we all sin and fall short of the glory of God, we are all "under sin." So Paul's point is that through the Law comes the knowledge that we are sinners, that we are under sin, for by the Law no flesh is justified.

But lets agree, either view is possible when viewing the passage in isolation. But then we have Matthew 23:13 which has men entering heaven. In order to enter heaven, they must have been regenerated to respond to the call of the gospel, if the doctrine of total spiritual inability is true.

However, they are blocked by false doctrine from false teachers. So if they were entering heaven without being altered by "Irresistible grace" they were unregenerate men responding to the call of the gospel. Therefore this verse supports my understanding of Romans 3:11-12 and nullifies the Calvinist view.

Next we have the doctrine of Unconditional Election which asserts God chose individuals before creation not based on any characteristic of the individual such as faith in the truth.
Calvinists would claim Ephesians 1:4 says we were chosen individually before creation, before we had done anything good or bad, just as the two babies were chosen in Romans 9:11.

God certainly chose the Word to be His Lamb, His Redeemer before creation (1 Peter 1:19-20), and therefore everyone the Lamb would redeem was chosen corporately in Him. But Paul teaches in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that we were chosen through faith in the truth. That would make our individual election for salvation a conditional election occurring during our lifetime. This is consistent with Romans 4:5 which says God credits our faith as righteousness.

And again, the "unconditional election" of the twins occurred during their lifetime, not before creation, and they were not chosen for salvation but for fulfilling His promise of blessing the descendants not of the flesh but of the chosen children of the promise. Therefore it does not depend on the man that wills to be saved, but upon God who has mercy on whom He has mercy. Therefore scripture provides support for conditional election based on fulfilling God's purpose, and that election is described in many verses such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Peter 2:9-10 and 1 Corinthians 1:26-30.

Next we have the doctrine of "Limited Atonement" which asserts Christ died only for the elect and did not die for mankind. However the bible teaches God desires all men be saved, so it is illogical for Christ not have provided the means of salvation for all mankind. We also have verses which teach Christ died for the church, i.e. the elect, but that does not argue against the idea Christ died for all mankind, including the elect, i.e. not either/or but both. 1 John 2:2 says Christ is the propitiation for the whole world.

And finally we have the doctrine of "Irresistible Grace" where Calvinism claims God makes alive (quickens) people before they are spiritually placed in Christ. However, Ephesians 2:5 says we were made alive together with Christ. So outside of Christ, separated from Christ we are dead, but once put in Christ, we are together with Christ and are alive.

At the end of the day, we can see that alternate views of verses cited as supporting Calvinism are possible, removing any actual support, and at the same time we can see verse after verse that directly teaches Calvinism is not true.

You have come up with a very good exposition.

Since you are an intelligent person and have obviously put considerable thought into your position, I think you are an appropriate person to whom to direct the following: I have always wondered how anyone could accept one part of the TULIP acronym -- for instance, the "P"-- and reject the others, or reject one and accept the rest, or reject a few and accept a few. It seems to me they all go together, that they are all predicated one upon the other. It seems to me that belief in one necessitates belief in them all.

Could you explain your position on this and how you arrived at accepting the 'P' in isolation from the other petals of the TULIP flower?

 

[Winman]

Luke argues that all men are depraved, this is true. But the issue is whether man needs to be supernaturally regenerated to change. I do not believe the scriptures teach this anywhere. I would love for any Calvinist to show even one verse that says this, they can't do it.

In fact, the book of Titus which Luke quoted shows how men change.

Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Does Paul say that men need to be supernaturally regenerated to be sound in faith? No, he says they need to be rebuked.

In other words, Paul shows that men are able to be convicted and corrected by the word of God so that they understand sound doctrine.

The natural man operates in natural ways. He does whatever seems right in his own eyes and judgment. That does not mean he cannot be taught the truth and come to a new understanding. That is in fact what the scriptures show, men can be convicted and corrected by the word of God.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Does Jesus say that men must be supernaturally regenerated to come to him? No, he says they must be taught of God, they must learn of the Father to come to Jesus. This is how the scriptures show unregenerate men are brought to Christ, through the scriptures, the word of God.

No man is born knowing spiritual truth. Without the word of God we would all be in darkness, and without any hope whatsoever of being saved. It is through the revelation and conviction of the word of God that we are all taught we are sinners. It is through the word of God we are taught that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins and rose again. It is through the word of God we are taught that if we place our faith in Jesus we shall be saved.

So, if any man is saved, it was given to him of the Father, it was given him through the word of God. Without the holy scriptures that the Father has given us no man could be saved.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Nowhere do the scriptures say a man must be regenerated to believe, the scriptures say we must be taught.

 

[jbh28]

They say that no one can understand the gospel message until they are regenerated. Paul in Romans 3:11-12 certainly says "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." Calvinists read into this passage, "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God at any time before regeneration My view reads into the passage "no one understands, no one seeks God when they are sinning.

What a gross misuse of the Bible. It says that no man seeks after God. It doesn't say only part of the time like Van tries to enter into the text. This is a quote from Psalm 14.

Psalm 14:1-2
"The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one."

Paul references this in Romans 3.

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10 as it is written,
“ There is none righteous, not even one;

11 There is none who understands,

There is none who seeks for God;

12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;

There is none who does good,

There is not even one.”

13 “ Their throat is an open grave,

With their tongues they keep deceiving,”

“ The poison of asps is under their lips”;

14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;

15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood,

16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,

17 And the path of peace they have not known.”

18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”


It says that "none seek after God." It doesn't say there are none seeking after God when they are sinning. That's adding to the text and it's a very bad addition to the text. When we look at the context(including that of Psalm) we see that it means what it says that "none seek after God."

either view is possible when viewing the passage in isolation.

no, the view of adding to Scripture is never possible(Rev 22:18).

So when "The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God." The answer was, They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one."


It is only by God amazing grace that we are saved. Man is totally depraved. God is holy!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

what a gross misuse of the bible. It says that no man seeks after god. It doesn't say only part of the time like van tries to enter into the text. This is a quote from psalm 14.

Psalm 14:1-2
"the lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, who seek after god. 3 they have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one."

paul references this in romans 3.

9 what then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both jews and greeks are all under sin;

10 as it is written,
“ there is none righteous, not even one;

11 there is none who understands,

there is none who seeks for god;

12 all have turned aside, together they have become useless;

there is none who does good,

there is not even one.”

13 “ their throat is an open grave,

with their tongues they keep deceiving,”

“ the poison of asps is under their lips”;

14 “ whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;

15 “ their feet are swift to shed blood,

16 destruction and misery are in their paths,

17 and the path of peace they have not known.”

18 “ there is no fear of god before their eyes.”


it says that "none seek after god." it doesn't say there are none seeking after god when they are sinning. That's adding to the text and it's a very bad addition to the text. When we look at the context(including that of psalm) we see that it means what it says that "none seek after god."

no, the view of adding to scripture is never possible(rev 22:18).

So when "the lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, who seek after god." the answer was, they have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one."


it is only by god amazing grace that we are saved. Man is totally depraved. God is holy!

very funny & profoundly pathetic.

 

[Luke2427]

What a gross misuse of the Bible. It says that no man seeks after God. It doesn't say only part of the time like Van tries to enter into the text. This is a quote from Psalm 14.

Psalm 14:1-2
"The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one."

Paul references this in Romans 3.

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10 as it is written,
“ There is none righteous, not even one;

11 There is none who understands,

There is none who seeks for God;

12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;

There is none who does good,

There is not even one.”

13 “ Their throat is an open grave,

With their tongues they keep deceiving,”

“ The poison of asps is under their lips”;

14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;

15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood,

16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,

17 And the path of peace they have not known.”

18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”


It says that "none seek after God." It doesn't say there are none seeking after God when they are sinning. That's adding to the text and it's a very bad addition to the text. When we look at the context(including that of Psalm) we see that it means what it says that "none seek after God."

no, the view of adding to Scripture is never possible(Rev 22:18).

So when "The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God." The answer was, They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one."


It is only by God amazing grace that we are saved. Man is totally depraved. God is holy!

That's exactly right.

 

[Herald]

very funny & profoundly pathetic.

I've chosen not to participate in answering the question posed in the OP because I anticipated responses like yours. Would you care to refute jbh28's well thought out response with some exegesis of your own, or are you just going to throw out drive-by comments?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I've chosen not to participate in answering the question posed in the OP because I anticipated responses like yours. Would you care to refute jbh28's well thought out response with some exegesis of your own, or are you just going to throw out drive-by comments?

I choose to throw out drive by comments.....does that answer your stupid question?

 

[Luke2427]

Luke argues that all men are depraved, this is true. But the issue is whether man needs to be supernaturally regenerated to change. I do not believe the scriptures teach this anywhere. I would love for any Calvinist to show even one verse that says this, they can't do it.

In fact, the book of Titus which Luke quoted shows how men change.

Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Does Paul say that men need to be supernaturally regenerated to be sound in faith? No, he says they need to be rebuked.

That's terrible. That verse has nothing to do with salvation.

"the faith" is the same as in Jude when we are exhorted to contend for "the faith".

This is the Gospel, the doctrines of Christ.

These false teachers were promoting false doctrine and Paul was saying that they must be rebuked so that the faith they preach would be sound, accurate, correct.

He is not saying ANYTHING about rebuking them so that they will be saved.

This is the problem with proof-texting.

Winman, you read the Bible with Arminian-colored glasses and because you don't know proper hermeneutics you see Armininism EVERYWHERE in the Bible and it is not there.

I honestly wish Skandelon would warmly and lovingly guide you here. Everybody knows Skandelon is an Arminian. But he uses verses that in context COULD be interpreted to say what he is saying.

The natural man operates in natural ways. He does whatever seems right in his own eyes and judgment. That does not mean he cannot be taught the truth and come to a new understanding. That is in fact what the scriptures show, men can be convicted and corrected by the word of God.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Does Jesus say that men must be supernaturally regenerated to come to him? No, he says they must be taught of God, they must learn of the Father to come to Jesus. This is how the scriptures show unregenerate men are brought to Christ, through the scriptures, the word of God.

Once again, this verse says nothing about HOW God instructs these he brings to Christ.

It does not say one must be regenerated and it does not say that one does not HAVE to be regenerated. It just says that those who have learned of the Father come to Christ.

It is NEVER an argument to say, "See, this verse doesn't say this must happen."

So what? You can't make a truth from silence. John 3:16 doesn't say that one must hear the Word of God to be saved.

Someone could follow your argument style and say, "See, it doesn't say that you need to hear the Bible to be saved. It just says you have to believe in Christ."

Do you see how silly that line of reasoning is?

BTW, in that context, it DOES say that only those upon whom God moves will come to Christ and ONLY those upon whom God moves will come to Christ.

No man is born knowing spiritual truth. Without the word of God we would all be in darkness, and without any hope whatsoever of being saved. It is through the revelation and conviction of the word of God that we are all taught we are sinners. It is through the word of God we are taught that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins and rose again. It is through the word of God we are taught that if we place our faith in Jesus we shall be saved.

So, if any man is saved, it was given to him of the Father, it was given him through the word of God. Without the holy scriptures that the Father has given us no man could be saved.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Nowhere do the scriptures say a man must be regenerated to believe, the scriptures say we must be taught.

The Great Commission is not applicable to this conversation because it does not say what God's part is in our salvation.

It says to make disciples of the nations. It does not say how God brings this to pass THROUGH our preaching.

You constantly use Scriptures to say things that they do not say, Winman.

The Scriptures do say repeatedly that man, in his natural, sinful, lost, dead state must be made alive in order to receive the things of the Spirit of God.

No man seeketh after God.
The natural man receiveth not the things of God.
You cannot SEE the Kingdom of God until you are born again.
The carnal mind is enmity against God and is not subject to the law of God neither indeed CAN IT BE....

and the list goes on and on and on.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What a gross misuse of the Bible. It says that no man seeks after God. It doesn't say only part of the time like Van tries to enter into the text. This is a quote from Psalm 14.

Psalm 14:1-2
"The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one."

Paul references this in Romans 3.

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10 as it is written,
“ There is none righteous, not even one;

11 There is none who understands,

There is none who seeks for God;

12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;

There is none who does good,

There is not even one.”

13 “ Their throat is an open grave,

With their tongues they keep deceiving,”

“ The poison of asps is under their lips”;

14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;

15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood,

16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,

17 And the path of peace they have not known.”

18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”


It says that "none seek after God." It doesn't say there are none seeking after God when they are sinning. That's adding to the text and it's a very bad addition to the text. When we look at the context(including that of Psalm) we see that it means what it says that "none seek after God."

no, the view of adding to Scripture is never possible(Rev 22:18).

So when "The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God." The answer was, They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one."


It is only by God amazing grace that we are saved. Man is totally depraved. God is holy!

Out of curiosity my friend....are you SBC?

 

[Skandelon]

They say that no one can understand the gospel message until they are regenerated. Paul in Romans 3:11-12 certainly says "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." Calvinists read into this passage, "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God at any time before regeneration My view reads into the passage "no one understands, no one seeks God when they are sinning.

My view reads, "no one understands" until God sent the Word to explain it to us in human terms, and 'no one seeks God,' which is why he is actively seeking us. Proof that we don't seek God is not proof that we can't respond to a God actively seeking us through the powerful Holy Spirit wrought appeal of the Gospel!

To understand the intent of Paul in Roman 3: 10-12 you have to see the shift he makes in Romans 3:20-22. Proof that no one can attain righteousness through the law by works isn't proof that no one can attain righteousness through grace by faith. The first half of Romans 3 is about proving men can't attain righteousness through law by works and the second half is to show they can attain righteousness by Grace through faith in the one who fulfilled the law on their behalf.

NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, in this passage suggests men are incapable of responding to God's appeal for reconciliation by Grace through faith.

 

[Van]

Hi Luke2427,

You posted a very long post, making non-germane points that are not in contention.

1. You are correct, I claim you missed the context, and you claim I missed the context.

2. But the issue is not that we are sinners, we are, but rather does this make us unable to seek God and trust in Christ at any time.

3. Next you say no unregenerate ever does anything good. And again, yes the Bible teaches all our righteousness is as filthy rags. But that is non-germane, for God can credit our filthy rag faith as righteousness.

4. You spend 1/3 of you post proving everybody is under sin. We are, so again not the issue.

5. You argue that none means all the time. However following regeneration, they seek after God. So you claim your qualification is valid but mine is not allowed. That dog will not hunt.

6. Next you say none ever seek after God, but you added ever to the text. But that is not contextual based on my view.

7. Next you say there is no reason to say no one seeks God when they are sinning. Why not, its true.

8. Next you say "the whole bible" supports this position. My view is the whole bible contradicts the assertion of total spiritual inability.

9. The heart is corrupt, wicked, etc. That again is not germane. Can an unregenerate heart seek God and trust in Christ is the issue. You cannot prove "A" and then claim "B" has been proved.

10. In Titus 1:15-16, you take a description of rebellious men, of which their are "many" and apply it to all mankind at all times. Non-germane reference.

11. You refer to Genesis 6:5, but lets look at the whole passage:

5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved [a]in His heart. 7 The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Bottom line, with a corrupt heart in a fallen condition, Noah found favor in the eyes of God. So the assertion this condition - every intent of the thoughts of the heart - equates with total spiritual inability is demonstrated false reading the verse in context.

12. Yes some people have either so hardened their hearts, or God has hardened their hearts, such that they have total spiritual inability, i.e. the first soil of Matthew 13, but this condition was not from birth, i.e. the result of the fall. And the other 3 soils had some spiritual ability so the natural unregenerate fallen man of flesh has the ability to understand the milk of the gospel and receive it with joy.

13. You claim being "enslaved to sin" equates with total spiritual inability, but that is not what the term actually means. We are all sinners, and our sins create a debt to God that we cannot pay, so we are enslaved, held captive, under, you pick the descriptive word, to sin and thus we need a Savior to ransom us.

14. Lastly, you equate being "free from righteousness" with being unable to seek God and trust in Christ. But that is contrary to fallen men seeking God through works or faith, which is well documented in Romans 9:30-33. The actual idea is nothing we do merits salvation, it is by God's grace, through faith which He credits as righteousness, even though it is a worthless filthy rag.

In summation, you proved we are sinners, unrighteous, with a corrupt heart, but you provided no evidence such a condition results in total spiritual inability from birth. You did not address Matthew 23:13 which has unregenerate men entering heaven, which precludes your assertion that being fallen results in total spiritual inability.

 

[Herald]

I choose to throw out drive by comments.....does that answer your stupid question?

Actually, it does. It allows me to appreciate more those with whom I disagree but who have the integrity, character, and courtesy to debate as gentlemen (or "gentleladies" as the case may be). Thank you for clearing up any misconception I may have had regarding your intent.

 

[Van]

You have come up with a very good exposition.

Since you are an intelligent person and have obviously put considerable thought into your position, I think you are an appropriate person to whom to direct the following: I have always wondered how anyone could accept one part of the TULIP acronym -- for instance, the "P"-- and reject the others, or reject one and accept the rest, or reject a few and accept a few. It seems to me they all go together, that they are all predicated one upon the other. It seems to me that belief in one necessitates belief in them all.

Could you explain your position on this and how you arrived at accepting the 'P' in isolation from the other petals of the TULIP flower?

Hi Michael, my school grades pretty much prove I live on the south side of the bell curve of human intelligence, but thanks for acknowledging I do my best with what God has given me.

Yes, the logic chain does tie the whole Tulip together, so how do I break off the P? First, the TULI refer to actions and circumstances prior to salvation. We cannot seek God from birth. God chose us before creation. Christ died only for those chosen before creation. And God alters us supernaturally from being unable to seek God to being unable not to seek God and trust in Christ. All pre-salvation items.

Second, I believe God does credit our faith as righteousness, and based on this, puts us spiritually in Christ where He protects our faith, 1 Peter 1:3-5. So the logic holds that says if we cannot put ourselves in Christ we also cannot put ourselves out of Christ once God puts us in.

I hope that answers your very insightful question.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Actually, it does. It allows me to appreciate more those with whom I disagree but who have the integrity, character, and courtesy to debate as gentlemen (or "gentleladies" as the case may be). Thank you for clearing up any misconception I may have had regarding your intent.

1st I am not a gentlemen

2nd you have profoundly missed the whole point....it went right over your head LOL

3. I dont even care. Your loss.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Van]

My view reads, "no one understands" until God sent the Word to explain it to us in human terms, and 'no one seeks God,' which is why he is actively seeking us. Proof that we don't seek God is not proof that we can't respond to a God actively seeking us through the powerful Holy Spirit wrought appeal of the Gospel!

To understand the intent of Paul in Roman 3: 10-12 you have to see the shift he makes in Romans 3:20-22. Proof that no one can attain righteousness through the law by works isn't proof that no one can attain righteousness through grace by faith. The first half of Romans 3 is about proving men can't attain righteousness through law by works and the second half is to show they can attain righteousness by Grace through faith in the one who fulfilled the law on their behalf.

NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, in this passage suggests men are incapable of responding to God's appeal for reconciliation by Grace through faith.

Fallen men seek after God through works in the OT based on the revelation of the Old Covenant in scripture. Some, the OT saints gained "approval" through faith in God and His promises, see Hebrews 11. Even Psalm 14 refers to folks seeking God as a refuge.

The only idea that fits is the contextual one I presented, no one seeks God when they are sinning. That is the argument if you take it apart and look at it brick by brick.

And yes, proof that no one seeks God effectively through the works of the Law because we all sin, is not proof of total spiritual inability, but rather proof that we can seek God effectively through faith.

 

[Luke2427]

My view reads, "no one understands" until God sent the Word to explain it to us in human terms, and 'no one seeks God,' which is why he is actively seeking us. Proof that we don't seek God is not proof that we can't respond to a God actively seeking us through the powerful Holy Spirit wrought appeal of the Gospel!

See this is fair. It is a fair interpretation of the text.

I don't agree with it but it is not based on horrible hermeneutics.

I WAS an Arminian for years. I was trained in an Arminian Bible College- not just a "non-cal" but an Arminian Bible College- one with an ACTUAL theology.

Skandelon has an ACTUAL theology. I just wish he would use his influence to lead guys like Winman and others to employ proper hermeneutics.

Arminius was a great admirer of Calvin. He did not agree with some of Calvin's conclusions but he recognized the consistency and brilliance of his theology. Arminius was an intelligent and consistent theologian.

The problem I have is not with Arminians. I don't agree with them, but my main problem is not with them.

My problem is with HORRIBLE hermeneutics. This is something Calvinists and Arminians alike ought to JOIN TOGETHER and combat.

To understand the intent of Paul in Roman 3: 10-12 you have to see the shift he makes in Romans 3:20-22. Proof that no one can attain righteousness through the law by works isn't proof that no one can attain righteousness through grace by faith. The first half of Romans 3 is about proving men can't attain righteousness through law by works and the second half is to show they can attain righteousness by Grace through faith in the one who fulfilled the law on their behalf.

NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, in this passage suggests men are incapable of responding to God's appeal for reconciliation by Grace through faith.

I have an argument against this, but I'd rather just pause and appreciate the fact that it is solid.

Why, Skandelon, why won't you correct the hermeneutics of our brethren like Van, Winman, etc... more often?

 

[Luke2427]

Hi Luke2427,

You posted a very long post, making non-germane points that are not in contention.

1. You are correct, I claim you missed the context, and you claim I missed the context.

2. But the issue is not that we are sinners, we are, but rather does this make us unable to seek God and trust in Christ at any time.

That is the point I made. NONE seek after God is VERY clear.

It is JUST EXACTLY as my Arminian brother said. NNE seeks after God until God comes after them and changes them through his Word.

3. Next you say no unregenerate ever does anything good. And again, yes the Bible teaches all our righteousness is as filthy rags. But that is non-germane, for God can credit our filthy rag faith as righteousness.

The point is that all men everywhere are always without fail doing unrighteousness at all times before regeneration.

That is Total Depravity.

You were questioning the merit of the doctrine. That is it. All men are TOTALLY depraved.

4. You spend 1/3 of you post proving everybody is under sin. We are, so again not the issue.

No. I spent the WHOLE post proving that ALL MEN EVERYWHERE are not just under sin but TOTALLY DEPRAVED by it.

That is what you question in your OP.

If men are TOTALLY DEPRAVED apart from God, then no one will EVER turn to God until God does a WORK in them (yes, I believe, by the power of his Spirit through his Word).

You were saying that "None seek after God while they were sinning. I showed that the point is that none (among the unregenerate world) EVER seek after God because ALL are TOTALLY DEPRAVED- that is the point of the text.

5. You argue that none means all the time. However following regeneration, they seek after God. So you claim your qualification is valid but mine is not allowed. That dog will not hunt.

Paul is not talking about the regenerate here. He is talking about the lost world that he begins talking about in Romans 1.

The NONE does not refer to every person including saints, angels, Jesus, etc... OBVIOUSLY.

I did not feel the need to bend over backwards to qualify the obvious.

Obviously I was talking about NONE of the unregenerate masses of mankind.

6. Next you say none ever seek after God, but you added ever to the text. But that is not contextual based on my view.

And I should not have to add "ever" because it is obviously implied. That is the POINT of the text.

I added the obviously implied "ever" for your sake.

7. Next you say there is no reason to say no one seeks God when they are sinning. Why not, its true.

It's not in the text- anywhere- not implied or in any other way.

That is a COMPLETE addition which is not there and I don't think any reputable scholar has EVER thought it was.

8. Next you say "the whole bible" supports this position. My view is the whole bible contradicts the assertion of total spiritual inability.

9. The heart is corrupt, wicked, etc. That again is not germane. Can an unregenerate heart seek God and trust in Christ is the issue. You cannot prove "A" and then claim "B" has been proved.

I have already proven that the unregenerate heart does not seek after God- that is quite LITERALLY Paul's WHOLE POINT.

10. In Titus 1:15-16, you take a description of rebellious men, of which their are "many" and apply it to all mankind at all times. Non-germane reference.

All sinners are REBELLIOUS MEN. ALL of them. That is the ESSENCE of the word "sinner". What is sin? Rebellion against the law and Lordship of God.

I have proven that ALL MEN are TREMENDOUSLY sinful so all men are REBELS.

So Titus 1:15-16 talking about rebels is perfectly applicable to ALL MEN since all men are rebels.

11. You refer to Genesis 6:5, but lets look at the whole passage:

5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved [a]in His heart. 7 The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Bottom line, with a corrupt heart in a fallen condition, Noah found favor in the eyes of God. So the assertion this condition - every intent of the thoughts of the heart - equates with total spiritual inability is demonstrated false reading the verse in context.

You take the phrase "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord" and equate that to say that these people whose thoughts and intents of their hearts are evil only continually have spiritual ability??

It's not there, Van. Not implied of otherwise.

That phrase tells us nothing about HOW Noah found grace. So you don't get to assume that it is because he had some innate spiritual ability.

12. Yes some people have either so hardened their hearts, or God has hardened their hearts, such that they have total spiritual inability, i.e. the first soil of Matthew 13, but this condition was not from birth, i.e. the result of the fall. And the other 3 soils had some spiritual ability so the natural unregenerate fallen man of flesh has the ability to understand the milk of the gospel and receive it with joy.

That is not the message of the Bible. The message of the Bible is that NONE seeks after God. ALL men are that depraved. The natural man (all unregenerate men) do not receive the things of God. The carnal mind (which is the ONLY mind that unregenerate people have) is at enmity against God and is not subject to the law of God neither indeed CAN IT BE. That is what the Bible teaches.

The Spirit of God breaks up the hard soil of man's depraved heart so that he can plant the Word of God in it.

Jeremiah said that THE heart is desperately wicked, deceitful above all things. He did not say SOME HEARTS are desperately wicked deceitful above all things.

THE HEART of man, in it's natural condition which is the nature it was born into, is desperately wicked.

There is absolutely NO reason to think, therefore that the Matthew passage above refers to ONLY SOME UNREGENERATE men.

13. You claim being "enslaved to sin" equates with total spiritual inability, but that is not what the term actually means. We are all sinners, and our sins create a debt to God that we cannot pay, so we are enslaved, held captive, under, you pick the descriptive word, to sin and thus we need a Savior to ransom us.

Enslaved in such a way that NONE seek after God. None ever do any good whatsoever. Enslaved so that we are totally free of righteousness.

THAT'S what enslaved means there according to the Bible.

14. Lastly, you equate being "free from righteousness" with being unable to seek God and trust in Christ. But that is contrary to fallen men seeking God through works or faith, which is well documented in Romans 9:30-33. The actual idea is nothing we do merits salvation, it is by God's grace, through faith which He credits as righteousness, even though it is a worthless filthy rag.

That passage does not say that men go seeking after God without God having first moved upon them.

That is what you are trying to make it say, but it does not even imply such a thing.