T, U, L and I of the Tulip

[Winman]

You keep making the same common mistake in this, as the biblical model for NT view of Election is that God foreknew/predestined his own people to getsaved by INDIVIDUAl basis, by act of His own Sovereign Will, not regarding to 'seeing: us placing faith in christ, as He based it upon His own selection!

And call it what you want, but until/unless the holy spirit quickensus/enables us to be able to respond to jesus, we will be stuck in our dead spiritual state!

And this is error. You are not quickened to believe, you believe to be quickened.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Why is a person spiritually dead? Because of SIN. As long as you are a sinner, you are DEAD. How can a person have their sins removed? Only by trusting in Jesus, we are justified by faith. Only after your sins have been forgiven and removed can a person be quickened, be spiritually alive.

You guys just don't get it, you can not be spiritually alive until your sins and trespasses are removed, and your sins can only be forgiven when you believe on Jesus. Therefore, faith must precede being regenerated or quickened.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Do you see what Jesus said? Unless you believe you shall die in your sins. You cannot be alive for even a millisecond until you believe on Jesus.

In another post, Luke said he believes a person can be regenerated for a "long time" before he is saved. This is error. Until you believe you are still condemned in trespasses and sins. You cannot be alive in any way whatsoever.

If a person has life before they believe, then they have life without Jesus. This is serious error. No one has life until they believe and are baptized into the body of Jesus. When we are baptized into his body, we then die to sin with him, and are raised to life with him. You cannot have life without Jesus.

1 Jhn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Calvinism teaches a man has life without Jesus, before he believes and is baptized into the body of Jesus. Serious error.

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you also hold Arminian theology regarding salvation to be in error?

they also hold to God MUST grant and apply grace to enable us to even being able to place faith in Jesus in order to get saved?

 

[Winman]

Do you also hold Arminian theology regarding salvation to be in error?

they also hold to God MUST grant and apply grace to enable us to even being able to place faith in Jesus in order to get saved?

Anybody who says a person is alive without Jesus and before believing on Jesus is in error, regardless of what they call themselves.

 

[Yeshua1]

Anybody who says a person is alive without Jesus and before believing on Jesus is in error, regardless of what they call themselves.

so what makes you come alive? Your personal faith in Christ, and where did that come from?

Did you make the final decision to receive/accept jesus and get saved?

 

[Winman]

so what makes you come alive? Your personal faith in Christ, and where did that come from?

Did you make the final decision to receive/accept jesus and get saved?

A person is spiritually alive when all their sins are forgiven and they are imputed righteous.

You don't get it, we were dead IN TRESPASSES AND SINS. What part do you not understand? So then, how can you be alive while you are still in your sins?

Everybody makes their own decisions, God does not believe for you.

 

[Van]

The book of Jonah is the best picture of God's sovereignty in salvation that I can think of.

Did God send Jonah to Nineveh because they had faith? NO! Their wickedness rose to heaven like a stench in the nostrils of God. But rather than wipe them off the earth, God chose to save them. That's why Jonah was so angry and tried to run from God. He knew God's mercy.

The only thing God told Jonah to preach was "in 40 days Nineveh will be overthrown" (Jonah 3:4). In the very next verse we read "then the people of Nineveh believed in God". That is clearly a work of God, not man. These people did not even know who God was and yet they believed? That is God given faith. It's a picture of our own salvation that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

We did not seek God any more than the people of Nineveh did. God sought us.

Is the book of Jonah teaching New Covenant Salvation? Nope

But it certainly shows God's concern not just for His chosen people, but for the whole world.

Did they not know who God was? Where did they get the idea to fast and put on sackcloth, in an effort to persuade God to relent?

But you are correct, Jonah was a sign of warning to those in Nineveh, picturing a miraculous messenger who spent 3 days in entombed, our Lord Christ Jesus.

Is it in dispute that we love God because He first loved us? Nope.

The issue is whether or not in a fallen unregenerate state do we have the limited spiritual ability to seek God and trust in Christ. And the answer is yes.

Calvinists claim regeneration occurs before a person is spiritually put in Christ. But scripture says we are made alive together with Christ.

The more you study Calvinism the more it falls apart. Unregenerates seek God through faith and works all through the bible. Folks do works of righteousness trying to please God. Men were entering the kingdom with being regenerated.

 

[Luke2427]

Hi Luke2427, thanks for making a good faith effort to address Matthew 23:13. Lets go over your position:

They had some spiritual ability in order to be headed into the kingdom of heaven. Agreed. Thus Total Spiritual Inability is demonstrated false.

Please read the post more closely. I did not say that they HAD spiritual ability. I said that God CAN create spiritual life in totally depraved men and that life can draw them toward God. That life does not have to come to fruition as is the case with the seeds choked out by thorns and burned by the sun in Jesus' parable.

Being spiritually dead does not mean being unable to hear and affirmatively respond to the gospel of Christ.

That's the ESSENCE of what it means.

I do not accept the premise that folks entering the kingdom of heaven were not seeking God and at least on some level trusting in part in Jesus. They would have been headed another direction otherwise.

As I have shown the text does not indicate that there were people who were actually entering the Kingdom and being snatched out by the Pharisees.

It's not there.

And I agree, nobody who had actually entered the kingdom was snatched out.

That's not what I said. I used the participle form of the word "enter" (entering). The text does not say that they were enterING the Kingdom and being snatched out either.


However, I DO think that people can be given spiritual life, that life spring forth, but be choked out before the new birth takes place. These are people who are not born again. They are still born.

This is taught in NUMEROUS places in Scripture such as in Jude when it speaks of people being "twice dead" and Hebrews 6 and 10.

Their entrance was blocked before God credited their faith as righteousness. But with a little more watering, rather than poisoning, it looks like they would have entered.

This may very WELL be true. The text is not clear enough to state this for sure.

However, the fact is that if there was movement toward God, it was spiritual movement that man, left to himself, is totally incapable of doing as I demonstrated in a lengthy post that you basically ignored and fled from.

Christ words are life. There are many who have a small measure of life planted in their souls only to have that life choked out by the cares of the world.

 

[Luke2427]

That is incorrect Amy, the scriptures say the people of Nineveh believed.

Jon 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

Now, could the people of Nineveh believe Jonah's prophecy before it was given? NO. No one can believe something they do not know. But when they heard the word of God from Jonah, they then believed and repented. When they repented, then God repented of destroying Nineveh.

Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God saw that they turned from sin demonstrating their faith, and so God repented of destroying Nineveh.

Now, you are correct, God first sought the people of Nineveh. But when the people of Nineveh heard the word of God, they then sought God.

Once again, this is an argument from silence.

You are yet again saying, "See it does NOT SAY that they were regenerated before they believed so they must not have been! THERE!!"

The Bible teaches that men MUST be regenerated BEFORE they can trust Christ.

So any time ANYONE ever comes to trust Christ (God) in the Bible we know that they MUST have been regenerated first whether that particular passage states it or not.

I provided numerous Scriptures that clearly state that regeneration MUST and DOES precede faith.

Therefore- it does. Regeneration precedes faith for Nicodemus and the Ninevites. It precedes faith for Abraham and Apollos, for Cornelius and the criminal on the cross beside Jesus. Regeneration has always and WILL always precede faith for every single sinner in the world. Why? Because the Bible teaches that that is the way God saves sinners- as I have shown a few posts back.

 

[Luke2427]

Is the book of Jonah teaching New Covenant Salvation? Nope

But it certainly shows God's concern not just for His chosen people, but for the whole world.

Did they not know who God was? Where did they get the idea to fast and put on sackcloth, in an effort to persuade God to relent?

But you are correct, Jonah was a sign of warning to those in Nineveh, picturing a miraculous messenger who spent 3 days in entombed, our Lord Christ Jesus.

Is it in dispute that we love God because He first loved us? Nope.

The issue is whether or not in a fallen unregenerate state do we have the limited spiritual ability to seek God and trust in Christ. And the answer is yes.

Calvinists claim regeneration occurs before a person is spiritually put in Christ. But scripture says we are made alive together with Christ.

The more you study Calvinism the more it falls apart. Unregenerates seek God through faith and works all through the bible. Folks do works of righteousness trying to please God. Men were entering the kingdom with being regenerated.

As we have shown you in this thread from the Bible, that is not so.

 

[Luke2427]

What this debate ultimately comes down to is this:

Is God truly sovereign over all or not?

Does he have goals that are failing?

The Bible CLEARLY teaches that God is sovereign over all and bringing his will to pass perfectly down to the molecular level.

Ex 4:11 Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

Eccl 7:13-14 Consider the work of God: who can make straight what He has made crooked? In the day of prosperity be joyful, and in the day of adversity consider: God has made the one as well as the other, so that man may not find out anything that will be after him.

Jer 32:27 “Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?

Lam 3:37-38 Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?

Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?

Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?”

Verses that explicitly state God is Sovereign

Exod 4:11 Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

2 Chr 20:6 and said, “O Lord, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand You.

Ps 103:19 The Lord has established His throne in the heavens, and His kingdom rules over all.

Ps 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; He does all that He pleases.

Ps 135:6 Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

Isa 45:5-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides Me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides Me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all My purpose,’

Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and He does according to His will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, “What have you done?”

Luke 1:37 For nothing will be impossible with God.

Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place.

Acts 17:26 And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place

Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

God's sovereignty extends above the WILLS of men:

Prov 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He will.

Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed. (Note – this is the 3rd most frequently quoted passage in the NT)

Ezek 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules.

Mark 4:11-12 And He said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.”

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 And He said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.

John 10:26 But you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.

John 12:39-40 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,

Rom 8:7-8 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.

Rom 11:8 As it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

 

[saturneptune]

The book of Jonah is the best picture of God's sovereignty in salvation that I can think of.

Did God send Jonah to Nineveh because they had faith? NO! Their wickedness rose to heaven like a stench in the nostrils of God. But rather than wipe them off the earth, God chose to save them. That's why Jonah was so angry and tried to run from God. He knew God's mercy.

The only thing God told Jonah to preach was "in 40 days Nineveh will be overthrown" (Jonah 3:4). In the very next verse we read "then the people of Nineveh believed in God". That is clearly a work of God, not man. These people did not even know who God was and yet they believed? That is God given faith. It's a picture of our own salvation that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

We did not seek God any more than the people of Nineveh did. God sought us.

Amy, that is an excellent post. Thanks for the way you worded it. My knowledge of Greek and Hebrew which most posts are saturated with, is looking the words up in a dictionary, so I find myself at a disadvantage debating the precise words.

One of the best examples to me is the conversion of Paul. Can you imagine Paul (Saul) being able to choose to put his faith in Jesus Christ before his encounter with the Risen Lord on a trip to persecute Christians and have them executed. I think it is kind of ridiculous to say that Paul, half way through his journey, would say, "Gee, I think it is time to accept the Lord, so I am going to exercise my faith, join the Kingdom of God, and stop persecuting Christians" without an encounter with the Lord first. There was no ability there to do that apart from the Lord.

I also think the charge that Calvinists (I hate that term) are saved without Christ because of regeneration coming before salvation is a word game. The regeneration is a gift of God, which is having Christ, since Christ is God. Also, the span of time is emphasized between regeneration and salvation. Again, a word game, or a lack of understanding of time between where we live and eternity. In the time element, it could happen at the same time, and if not, what difference does it make in eternity?

I think the label Calvinism honestly causes sharper and more aggressive posts. I wish we could come up with a decent label to describe what we are trying to say about God's sovereignty and grace. Calvin's life and some of his theology does not merit an entire doctrine to be named after him.

Again, excellent post.

 

[Winman]

Once again, this is an argument from silence.

You are yet again saying, "See it does NOT SAY that they were regenerated before they believed so they must not have been! THERE!!"

The Bible teaches that men MUST be regenerated BEFORE they can trust Christ.

So any time ANYONE ever comes to trust Christ (God) in the Bible we know that they MUST have been regenerated first whether that particular passage states it or not.

I provided numerous Scriptures that clearly state that regeneration MUST and DOES precede faith.

Therefore- it does. Regeneration precedes faith for Nicodemus and the Ninevites. It precedes faith for Abraham and Apollos, for Cornelius and the criminal on the cross beside Jesus. Regeneration has always and WILL always precede faith for every single sinner in the world. Why? Because the Bible teaches that that is the way God saves sinners- as I have shown a few posts back.

Baloney. You have not shown one verse that says a person must be regenerated before they have the ability to believe. Does Romans 8 say that? No, it simply says while a man is carnally minded he cannot please God. It does not say a man is fixed in this state.

It is like saying that while your children are rebellious they cannot please you. This does not mean they cannot turn from their rebellion.

1 Cor 2:14 does not prove that the natural man cannot receive the Spirit, because we have much other scripture that says he can.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

I have shown this before, I will show it again, Paul's question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Holy Spirit by first hearing and believing the gospel. So, unregenerate men have the ability to believe the gospel once they hear it, and AFTERWARD they receive the Spirit. Now that they receive the Spirit they can now begin to understand the "deeper things" of God that Paul is speaking of in 1 Cor 2.

Van was correct that Paul was speaking to these Corinthians as those that are "carnal", he has fed them with milk, which is the gospel.

1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

These Corinthians were carnally minded, they were walking as carnal men, yet they were believers, they were babes in Christ. So 1 Cor 2:14 DOES NOT prove that unregenerate men cannot believe the gospel and receive the Spirit. In fact, we know they had received the Spirit from 1 Cor 2:12. You are refuted right there. These verses also show that Romans 8 does not prove a carnal man cannot turn from his carnal mind and believe the simple (milk) gospel.

There are other scriptures that also show the unregenerate can believe the gospel such as Eph 1:13, Pro 1:23, and Acts 2:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Eph 1:13 shows a man #1 hears, then #2 believes, and #3 receives the Spirit. How can a man be regenerate without the Spirit?

Pro 1:23 shows that a man first turns or repents toward God and THEN God pours out his Spirit unto them, and then they are able to understand God's word. Compare this to 1 Cor 2:14.

Acts 2:38-40 also shows a man first repents and believes, and afterward receives the Spirit. Peter goes so far as to say "Save yourselves". This absolutely shows unregenerate men have the ability to repent and believe the gospel.

There is not one verse in all the Bible that says a person must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. There are many that show an unregenerate man can believe.

 

[Luke2427]

Baloney. You have not shown one verse that says a person must be regenerated before they have the ability to believe.

Perhaps you missed posts 45 and 65.

Does Romans 8 say that? No, it simply says while a man is carnally minded he cannot please God. It does not say a man is fixed in this state.

The unregenerate man IS fixed in this state because he is ONLY carnal. That's all he has. He has no spiritual life in him so, obviously, he cannot be spiritual. He can only be carnal when all he is is carnal.

It is like saying that while your children are rebellious they cannot please you. This does not mean they cannot turn from their rebellion.

But if all they are is rebellious then they cannot please me in that illustration.

1 Cor 2:14 does not prove that the natural man cannot receive the Spirit, because we have much other scripture that says he can.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

I have shown this before, I will show it again, Paul's question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Holy Spirit by first hearing and believing the gospel. So, unregenerate men

???????

What?

Where does this passage say that these Galatians were UNREGENERATE???

Madness.

have the ability to believe the gospel once they hear it, and AFTERWARD they receive the Spirit. Now that they receive the Spirit they can now begin to understand the "deeper things" of God that Paul is speaking of in 1 Cor 2.

No man can say that Jesus Christ is Lord BUT BY THE SPIRIT.

Van was correct that Paul was speaking to these Corinthians as those that are "carnal", he has fed them with milk, which is the gospel.

1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

These Corinthians were carnally minded, they were walking as carnal men, yet they were believers, they were babes in Christ. So 1 Cor 2:14 DOES NOT prove that unregenerate men cannot believe the gospel and receive the Spirit.

Wrong. The context is set in 2:1 where Paul begins to talk about how he FIRST came to them preaching the Gospel.

NOBODY thinks that the phrase "natural man" refers to saved people. NOBODY.

In fact, we know they had received the Spirit from 1 Cor 2:12. You are refuted right there. These verses also show that Romans 8 does not prove a carnal man cannot turn from his carnal mind and believe the simple (milk) gospel.

No it doesn't. It doesn't refute or prove anything. Once again, Winman, things are not so just because you say they are.

Those verses, like MOST verses you ever post, do not say what you are saying they say. You do not know your Bible because you do not know how to interpret Scripture as you demonstrate here once again.

Stop SAYING a verse says something and SHOW HOW it is saying it.

There are other scriptures that also show the unregenerate can believe the gospel such as Eph 1:13, Pro 1:23, and Acts 2:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

That verse does not even TOUCH the subject we are discussing. Which is not surprising coming from you.

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

You might as well post genealogy verses because the verses you post do not TOUCH this subject.

You might as well say, "And Isaac begat Jacob" means that regeneration does not precede faith.

It's madness!

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Once again this verse says NOTHING about people coming to Christ before regeneration. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING.

Eph 1:13 shows a man #1 hears, then #2 believes, and #3 receives the Spirit. How can a man be regenerate without the Spirit?

Horrible hermeneutics!!! Absolutely HORRIBLE!!

That speaks of receiving the SEAL of the Spirit- not the Spirit as the third person of the Godhead.

TERRIBLE!! I have never SEEN anybody who understands how to study the Scriptures as little as you do.

Pro 1:23 shows that a man first turns or repents toward God and THEN God pours out his Spirit unto them, and then they are able to understand God's word. Compare this to 1 Cor 2:14.

No it doesn't. That's TERRIBLE!

Acts 2:38-40 also shows a man first repents and believes, and afterward receives the Spirit. Peter goes so far as to say "Save yourselves". This absolutely shows unregenerate men have the ability to repent and believe the gospel.

The GIFT of the Spirit. The GIFT. GIFT. GIFT. Not the Spirit as a person.

When you receive Christ you receive the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the one who brings you to Christ.

I can't BELIEVE I have to tell you this. I CANNOT BELIEVE you don't already know it.

There is not one verse in all the Bible that says a person must be regenerated to have the ability to believe.

I refer you once again to posts 45 and 65 where I provide just a FEW of the many verses that teach this.

There are many that show an unregenerate man can believe.

There is not a single verse that says this as you have proven by your inability above to provide a SINGLE verse.

 

[Amy.G]

I'm borrowing this from a John MacArthur sermon but I totally agree with him on it.

To the unregenerate man, the gospel sounds like this; there was a Jewish man who lived 2000 years ago, claimed to be God, healed the sick, raised people from the dead, was crucified on a cross and now your sins can be forgiven.
That just won't sell. To the unregenerate (the natural man), that is just baloney. It's just a story told by Christians to get other people to be Christians. (end of MacArthur's opinion.)

The gospel is spiritual. It cannot be understood through logic or human means. It can only be understood spiritually. The unbeliever is in the natural. He CANNOT understand spiritual things. The only way you can say that unregenerate man can understand the gospel is to say that the gospel is not spiritual in nature. And if not, it is only mere words which have no power at all. It is no different than preaching a gospel of Buddha or Mohammed. You CANNOT convince someone that a man named Jesus, a Jew who lived 2000 years ago is GOD except that the Spirit of God opens his mind and his heart to SEE the truth. There is just no way any human being is going to believe it without God causing him to see it.

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus is telling Peter that "you didn't figure this out". God showed it to you.

To say that we have the ability within ourselves to believe the gospel, is to say that we don't need God to open our hearts to see the truth and therefore the gospel is not spiritual in nature, but carnal and earthly.

 

[Luke2427]

I'm borrowing this from a John MacArthur sermon but I totally agree with him on it.

To the unregenerate man, the gospel sounds like this; there was a Jewish man who lived 2000 years ago, claimed to be God, healed the sick, raised people from the dead, was crucified on a cross and now your sins can be forgiven.
That just won't sell. To the unregenerate (the natural man), that is just baloney. It's just a story told by Christians to get other people to be Christians. (end of MacArthur's opinion.)

The gospel is spiritual. It cannot be understood through logic or human means. It can only be understood spiritually. The unbeliever is in the natural. He CANNOT understand spiritual things. The only way you can say that unregenerate man can understand the gospel is to say that the gospel is not spiritual in nature. And if not, it is only mere words which have no power at all. It is no different than preaching a gospel of Buddha or Mohammed. You CANNOT convince someone that a man named Jesus, a Jew who lived 2000 years ago is GOD except that the Spirit of God opens his mind and his heart to SEE the truth. There is just no way any human being is going to believe it without God causing him to see it.

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus is telling Peter that "you didn't figure this out". God showed it to you.

To say that we have the ability within ourselves to believe the gospel, is to say that we don't need God to open our hearts to see the truth and therefore the gospel is not spiritual in nature, but carnal and earthly.

That's exactly right.

This is taught prolifically throughout the Scripture.

 

[Van]

What this debate ultimately comes down to is this:

Is God truly sovereign over all or not? Yes, He does as He pleases and it pleases God to credit our autonomous faith in Christ as righteousness.

Does he have goals that are failing? Nope, and the concept that God is failing is a strawman argument.

The Bible CLEARLY teaches that God is sovereign over all and bringing his will to pass perfectly down to the molecular level. He certainly could if that what He chose to do. But if His will is to allow us to act autonomously, then that becomes His perfect will.

Verses that explicitly state God is Sovereign Yes, God either causes or allows all things that come to pass. Therefore He is not the author of sin.

Ps 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; He does all that He pleases. Yes, that is the Biblical doctrine.


Isa 45:5-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides Me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides Me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. All true, but note that if God directly causes all our thoughts and decisions, there would be no need to create calamity to persuade people to seek God autonomously as a refuge. Once again the very verses cited by Calvinism actually demonstrate it is false doctrine.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all My purpose,’ And His purpose is to choose those whose autonomous faith He credits as righteousness.

Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place. Yes God predestined a plan which He is fulfilling even now, which is to credit our autonomous faith as righteousness and put us in Christ.

Acts 17:26 And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place Here we have the prove "A" and claim "B" has been proven ploy. God has predetermined lots of circumstances that happen, such as the times and places when and where we live. That does not say He predetermined everything imaginable. On the other side, scripture does say things happen by chance.

Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. Here we see God overruling the autonomous choices of men and causing them for His purpose to go against God. Yet another example where limited spiritual ability is removed by our Sovereign God.

God's sovereignty extends above the WILLS of men:
Yep, that is what I said.

Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed. (Note – this is the 3rd most frequently quoted passage in the NT) Yet another example of removing limited spiritual ability. That Calvinists do not see it is ironic.

Ezek 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules. When God puts us spiritually in Christ, we are baptized into His death, undergo the circumcision of Christ, and arise a new creation, created for good works and seal us in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever. All true

Mark 4:11-12 And He said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.” Yet another verse teaching limited spiritual ability that because of timing had to be sidestepped by the use of parables.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. Here Calvinism claim all who are drawn are raised up, but that is shoddy Bible study. All the Father gives to the Son He does not cast out and therefore raises them up on the last day.

John 6:65 And He said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father.” Yes, unless exposed to God's revelatory grace through the gospel, and only if God allows us by not hardening our hearts for His purpose, to hear and understand the gospel, do we have an opportunity to hear and learn from the Father, John 6:45. But 100% of those who do, i.e. everyone, comes to Jesus. Note we must "learn" from God's revelatory grace, but if we do, He credits our faith as righteousness.

John 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. Yet another verse teaching limited spiritual ability. The reason here is rejection by autonomous choice, not the inability to understand, the Calvinist false doctrine.

John 10:26 But you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. Lets camp on this verse. Here we have the ESV ending with "part of my flock" The NIV says "not My sheep." But the best translations read "not of My sheep." The idea is not limited to those previous placed in Christ, but also those receptive to the gospel, folks who trust in God and are looking for the Messiah. On the other hand, folks who are not "of My Sheep" are "of your father the devil" John 8:44. These two groups are "in play" and may end up in either camp, some "of My sheep" folks may be lost, i.e. Matthew 23:13, and certainly some of the wayward lost may come to their senses and repent of their wicked ways.

John 12:39-40 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” Yet another verse teaching the loss of limited spiritual ability.

Rom 8:7-8 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Unregenerates cannot please God with works for they are filthy rags, but they can please God through faith, just as scripture says. The idea that unregenerates are unable to set their minds on spiritual milk is proved false by Matthew 23:13, so the Calvinism add on to this verse is false.

 

[Yeshua1]

How do you view the verses that state that just as ALL have died in Adam, ALl shall be made alive again in Christ?

bible states that ALL have sinned, by BOTH nature and chooses, and that ONLY those now In Christ are made alive again...

Wouldn't that clearly teach ALL are spiritual dead in adam, until made spiritually alive again in christ?

 

[Yeshua1]

We all spiritually died in adam, and those saved by grace of God remade spiritual alive anew in christ!

ALL others still dead in their sins!

 

[Skandelon]

Fallen men seek after God through works in the OT based on the revelation of the Old Covenant in scripture. Some, the OT saints gained "approval" through faith in God and His promises, see Hebrews 11. Even Psalm 14 refers to folks seeking God as a refuge.

The only idea that fits is the contextual one I presented, no one seeks God when they are sinning. That is the argument if you take it apart and look at it brick by brick.

And yes, proof that no one seeks God effectively through the works of the Law because we all sin, is not proof of total spiritual inability, but rather proof that we can seek God effectively through faith.

I don't disagree with this. Men must respond to God's revelation of himself. The revelation of the gospel is what is necessary for saving faith in Christ, which is the goal and the subject of soteriology...which is what Paul is explaining in Romans 3.

The difference between righteousness by law through works and righteousness by grace through faith is what Paul is explaining. Calvinists seem to equate law to grace and faith to works. They think that because we can't attain righteousness by law through works then we can't possibly attain righteousness by grace through faith.

 

[Skandelon]

I have an argument against this, but I'd rather just pause and appreciate the fact that it is solid.

I think I understand what you mean, but if it's 'solid' then it is correct. If it's in error then it can't be 'solid.' A solid hermeneutic always leads to correct interpretation, IMO.

Why, Skandelon, why won't you correct the hermeneutics of our brethren like Van, Winman, etc... more often?

I just did. And I believe the basis of their understanding is correct, I just took issue with the reason for it. I believe your view is in greater error than theirs.

As I just explained, Paul is explaining the difference between righteousness by law through works and righteousness by grace through faith. Calvinists seem to equate law to grace and faith to works, in that they seem to think both are insufficient for righteousness. They think that because we can't attain righteousness by law through works then we can't possibly attain righteousness by grace through faith.