Christ's atonement does not cover the sin of unbelief? Are there other sins His sacrifice does not cover?
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Christ's atonement does not cover the sin of unbelief? Are there other sins His sacrifice does not cover?
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8
The problem is, the OP is a passage on the unbelief Christ's atonement does not cover, but you want it to be about the unbelief sins that His atonement does cover.
So, in light of the OP passage being on the unbelief not covered by the atonement, what is your response to the questions of the OP. Let's not get sidetracked again on a Christian's lack of faith.
Where exactly is it stated that it was NOT covered 'in the eternal sense', as in 1 Cor 5:5?
IOW, where in all the text of the book of Hebrews do you derive eternal damnation for this sin of unbelief on the part of those who had previously made a confession of faith? Point it out to me, the eternal consequences.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Kyredneck,
Do you believe there will be people in heaven who died after Christ resurrected who never knew who he was on earth or believed on him?
Brother Joe
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Kyredneck,
I use to believe that too, but no longer. If that is the case, how come there is not one single example of a New Testament child of God dying without knowing who Jesus was and that he died and rose again?
Is that the 'formula' to be able to stand in the judgment? Show me that.
We're all going to be judged by our works that came from the heart, not what we had correct in our minds.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
If one could be saved without knowing believing in Jesus's death for sin and resurrection, there surely would have been at least one example of it in the New Testament, but there isn't.
An elect child of God will have the evidence of belief in Jesus. This is evidence of salvation, but not the cause of it, however you do not have one without eventually in some time having the other, and yes the scripture makes this abundantly clear over and over as seen from all the scriptures below-
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18)
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)
"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son" (1 John 5:10)
"I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness" (John 12:46)
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)
"...he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)
"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:47)
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me...; " (John 6:37)
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me...(John 10:27)
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40)
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." (John 6:47)
"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" (John 11:25)
"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." (John 20:31)
"9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:" (2 John 1:9-10)
"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith" (1 John 5:4)
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother, do you believe this as a result in believing "conditional time salvation"?
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Kentucky, regarding being judged by our works, according to scripture isn't believing or faith also a work?
"28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (John 6:28-29)
"and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:" (2 Thes 1:11)
"Remembering without ceasing your work of faith," (1 Thes 1:3)
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Well I am glad to hear that you at least do not believe in conditional time salvation! I thought maybe you did, because I had believed in it and that was what led me to the false conclusion that a child of God could die rejecting the gospel! This is heresy. It is not the original doctrine of old Baptists as proven by the fact that it is not in any Baptist Confession of faith, not one! Also, no Primitive Baptist prior believed the so called doctrine of "conditional time salvation" prior to the civil war as it is not found in any writing from anyone prior to that time period. It is a new invention that hatched its egg after the civil war and thus could not be true.
convicted1
Guest
What about your free will? Do you lose it once you're saved?
You mean in the sense that one would still have the freewill to reject Jesus Christ and stop believing in Him? I once had a freewill choice to marry my lovely wife. I chose to say yes and marry her. Can I now choose to believe she is not my wife? Maybe I can choose to say she is not my wife, but nevertheless, she is still my wife. Once God marries you, you may fall into rebellion, but you simply cannot get unborn/unmarried from Him. So I guess in that sense one's freewill has already created an absolute which cannot be undone by freewill.
There are many freewill decisions we make in life, many are irrevocable once freely made. This doesn't negate the freewill at all.
Good question! :thumbsup:
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convicted1
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Sooo....one who is a sinner, who is a slave...a servant of sin, has a free will to either believe or reject Christ, then in turn, once set free by the Truth....Christ is the Truth that sets us free...he can not choose to deny Him?
That's backwards, imo....
That's backwards, imo....
PreachTony
Active Member
I'm not KYR, but I'd like to jump in on this one if I might...
Faith is not a work, otherwise Ephesians 2:8-9 is a falsehood. We've danced this dance several times on this board, Bro. Joe. If we are saved by grace through faith, and not works, then it stands to reason faith cannot be a work.
If you are going to say faith is a work based off a verse that says "work of faith," then you must say God is a work, as you likewise posted a verse that mentions the "work of God."
It has long been my belief that the works mentioned in the scripture are an off-shoot and byproduct of our faith, and not a cause of our faith. I do works because I have faith. I don't have faith because I do works.
Does that make sense?
Faith is not a work, otherwise Ephesians 2:8-9 is a falsehood. We've danced this dance several times on this board, Bro. Joe. If we are saved by grace through faith, and not works, then it stands to reason faith cannot be a work.
If you are going to say faith is a work based off a verse that says "work of faith," then you must say God is a work, as you likewise posted a verse that mentions the "work of God."
It has long been my belief that the works mentioned in the scripture are an off-shoot and byproduct of our faith, and not a cause of our faith. I do works because I have faith. I don't have faith because I do works.
Does that make sense?
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Hi Brother Tony,
We are saved by the atonement alone. By faith a man is also said to be justified in scripture. Faith in the gospel is the means God chooses to reveal to his Child that he was justified by blood and thus allows them to rejoice in the knowledge of their legal justification by blood in their experience in this life. Our faith is said to be a "fruit of the Spirit", thus man can claim no credit for having faith.
Justification by Blood- "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9) This is legal justification in the sight of God. This happened ONCE in the history of all the Earth, when Christ made Himself an offering on the Cross. When Christ was made an offering for sins, God the Father was pleased with the Son's sacrifice and we were legally justified (declared just). This verdict occurs in God's courtroom!
Justification by Faith (Rom 4). This is experiential. In short, when a born again person trusts solely in Christ's power to raise the dead, that faith is "counted unto him" for righteousness. The reality of being redeemed (justified by blood) is understood by the believer. That person, upon believing, experiences peace with God (5:1). Below are some specific, undisputable facts about justification by faith.
Paul's two examples of this are Abraham and David.
Abraham - According to Paul in Romans 4, Abraham was justified by faith in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Notice though, that Abraham left Ur in Genesis 12:1. According to Hebrews 11, Abraham left Ur by faith. According to Galatians 5:22, faith is a fruit of the Spirit. According to Hebrews 12:2, Christ authors Faith in a person. In short, no one has faith without first being born again (1 John 5:1). Faith is a product of the New Birth, when God writes His laws upon our hearts, and teaches us to “know Him” (Heb 8).
According to Reformed Theology however, justification by faith comes at the identical time as the new birth. Yet, we find Abraham walking by faith 15 years prior to the event in which he was “justified by faith,” all the way back in Genesis 12:1. Hmm...how can one walk by faith for over a decade prior to being justified by faith, if justification by faith and the new birth are synonyms? Simple, that idea is erroneous.
Abraham walked by faith, worship God, etc., prior to believing in Christ's power to raise his dead body in a reproductive sense. He was already born again. But, when he believed God's promise, his redeemed state with God was felt and he was justified on the level of his conscience. The legal fact was now a felt reality!!!
So what is Justification by faith? Simple – when a Child of God by God's power believes in Christ's atonement , he is now aware on the level of his conscience to be just, and experiences peace with God. This is experiential.
Justification by works (James 2). This occurs in the “courtroom of others' opinions.” By good works, we show ourselves to be righteous to other people. To quote James 2, we “show our faith by our works.”
To sum up justification:
•By blood: God's courtroom.
•By faith: The courtroom of a believer's conscience.
•By works: The courtroom of onlookers' opinions.
This view is the only view consistent with both Paul's examples, other fundamental teachings (such as faith being a fruit of the Spirit, not the cause), and the actual definition of the term.
Sooo....you believe if someone is a sinner, who is a slave...a servant of sin, must sin in absolutely everything they do? All of their choices are sin, they cannot choose to do right, all of their works are sin, even feeding and clothing their own children is sin? After all, they are servants and slaves of sin.
convicted1
Guest
Anything and everything a sinner does is 'sin' in God's eyes, imo. Even the plowing of the wicked is sin. There are no 'good deeds' a sinner does in God's eyes. When we touch something clean with dirty(defiled) hands, it becomes dirty(defiled), too. A 'good deed' done by sinners is sin because they have dirty(defiled) hands...
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