And that is just one of the errors embraced by Calvinism. I would like to see you support such view with scripture....as you said, it is your opinion, not scripture. Oh the extremes one must go to support doctrines of men...
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Take heed brethren!!!
- Thread starter steaver
- Start date
- Status
And that is just one of the errors embraced by Calvinism. I would like to see you support such view with scripture....as you said, it is your opinion, not scripture. Oh the extremes one must go to support doctrines of men...
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Steaver,
Here are scriptures to support what Convicted said that someone who is not born again cannot perform good deeds toward God.
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5)
Man can go a work, but motive is what defines if something is a "good work", and an evil heart only has evil motives (pride, recognition, etc.)
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not" (Romans 7:19)
"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:8)
This verse would be untrue is someone who is born again could do good works pleasing unto God. Also, it is proof of total inability, because if someone without the Holy Spirit, who only has the flesh nature of Adam, could repent and believe the gospel, then it should say, "they that are in the flesh can please God", shouldn't it?
Brother Joe
Wow, KR, I didn't know you believed that. Aren't you Primitive Baptist?
So, how did Lucifer stop believing then -- you know, before he got kicked out of heaven?
Romans 3:12 "All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
*N
NE DOES GOOD*, not even one.”
Paul does not deny that human beings perform some actions that conform externally to goodness, but these actions, prior to salvation, are still stained by evil, since they are not done for God’s glory (Romans 14:23b; "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin".*
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Rebel,
I am not KYRedneck, but I am Primitive Baptist. There are several different factions of Primitive Baptists. Progressives (they have things such as Sunday schools and musical instruments in service, Predestinarians (they believe in the absolute predestination of all things), universalists ("no hellers"), and the largest one is what is referred to as "conditionalists" or "old line" Primitive Baptists. I would guess they comprise about 90% of Primitive Baptist churches and I suspect Brother Kentucky by his beliefs he has expressed on this thread attends one of these churches, but only he can clarify that. They believe the Bible teaches two salvations. The first being that of eternal redemption and that this was purchased solely through the death of Christ on the cross for his people and that Christ sovereignly without the uses of means by makes one born again by imparting his quickening Holy Sprit.(I would agree them on with this). However, they also believe in a second salvation in time that they refer to by various names such as "conditional time salvation", "time salvation", or "temporal salvation". It is basically being saved from the evils of this world in this lifetime, and teaches we merit God's blessings (I do not understand how one can "merit" a blessing as that is a wage not a "blessing by the common definition) by obedience and receive His cursings if we are disobedient. They believe this salvation is conditional based on their will and not that it is "God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) and thus not all who are born again will experience time salvation. This has led to such heresies among some of them as believing the elect may be born again and yet reject and never believe the gospel, believing in such things as "regenerated Muslims/Hindus/etc" who die in that particular religion, but go to heaven, and some go so far as to claim an elect child of God can live in all sorts of sin their entire life due to not having "conditional time salvation", hence they also deny the perseverance of the saints and the doctrine of sanctification of believers (though they do not believe one can lose their salvation).
I am a member of a conditional Primitive Baptist church, and use to believe such heresies, but the Lord used the writings of others and the Bible to open my eyes to the truth. I now attend a Primitive Baptist church that believes in the absolute predestination of all things and rejects conditional time salvation. They are called "absolulters" or "predestinarian" Primitive Baptists. Old line Primitive Baptists do not deny predestination of people to salvation, but they do deny absolute predestination of all things, however this doctrine can be easily traced back to some of the first Baptists confessions of faith such as the 1689 London Baptist confession that states, "God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;". Thus this proves this is the original doctrine of true old Baptists.
Interesting to note, the doctrine of "conditional time salvation" didn't even exist amount Primitive Baptists until after the Civil War, thus there is no writings about it prior to that period, but unfortunately many in that order are not aware of this. I would challenge any conditional brother who believes in conditional time salvation to show a writing of it that existed prior to the civil war. Unfortunately, like all doctrines that are pleasing to the flesh, it spread like wild fire, thus conditionalists vastly now outnumber the absoluters, but God did say his flock was a "little flock". Also interesting, is nobody other than Old line Primitive Baptists in the United States and other churches constituted by them throughout the world are the only Christian order that believes in conditional time salvation. Most people have never even heard of it. It doesn't even pass the "deserted island test". By this, I simply mean if you gave me a Bible and put me on a deserted island I would never come up with such a doctrine, but the teachers of this doctrine or very shrewd in the way it is presented to their flock.
For any Primitive Baptist or anyone for that matter, desiring to read a refutation of this heresyI suggest reading the following two articles. The first is titled "Conditional Time Salvation Is It The Truth" written by predestinarian Primitive Baptist elder RH Boaz in 1897 when the heresy was first starting to spread http://www.mountzionpbc.org/books/boaz_salvation.htm
The other article is titled "Conditional Time Salvation" by Elder Jim Poole (also a Primitive Baptist absoluter) and has two parts. Part 1 is here http://asweetsavor.info/ejp/conditional.php
Part 2 is here
http://asweetsavor.info/ejp/conditional4.php
The Sweet Savor website above is an absolute predestination Primitive Baptist page and has been very useful to me in learning as it contains many other articles , books, and audio sermons by the original old school Primitive Baptists.
I do consider conditionalists children of God, however they are under the yoke and burden of the law with the impossible task of carrying out their own sanctification.
God bless,
Brother Joe
Thank you for your detailed response.
convicted1
Guest
God sees us either through one of two Adam's, Adam of Christ, the last Adam. The only righteousness we have through the first Adam is filthy rags...see menstrual rags. The unregenerate fall under this category. The only righteousness truly worthy of worship is through Christ, the last Adam.
(19 holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith:
20 of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme. 1 Tim 1 )
(to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor 5:5)
From post two:
"The redeemed, heavenly born, child of God is capable of doing everything in The Book he's admonished to take heed NOT to do. And that includes unbelief. It's just that simple."
......to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, Col 1:22,23
Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22
Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2
but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14
Why the admonishment to 'continue', and, 'hold fast' if there were not a real possibility for us NOT to do so?
Yes. Mainstream.
Last edited by a moderator:
Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is not a "good deed". It has nothing to do with performing any good works towards God. Eph chapter two makes the distinction between works and faith, Calvinism blurs the two, thus comes to a conclusion full of errors and sites passage after passage of "works" to support the false idea that man cannot believe without God making them believe. Faith is not a work (Eph 2). Until these two are given their proper place in theology, error will continue to flourish.
Ephesians 2 makes it clear that faith is not a work of man....it is of God.
Jesus says faith is the work of God.
John 6:29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.
convicted1
Guest
Amen Bro. McCree!!!
Why did Jesus say that "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Steaver,
As BrotherMcree79 has already shown faith is a work, but contrary to what you believe, a human does not manufacture it of their flesh and will, rather scripture teaches it is God that grants the gift of faith to an individual enabling them to believe by sovereignly imparting his Holy Spirit. ."Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (John 6:29)"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8)"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 16:17)
Moreover, scripture also tells us repeatedly the gospel is hid to the lost and he does not reveal it to those who are not his sheep (i.e. goats).
"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost" (2 Corinthians 4:3)
"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. 22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him" (Luke 10:21-22)
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness" (1 Corinthians 1:18)
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." ( 1 Corinthians 2:4)
He that is of God (PRESENT TENSE) heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because (THE CAUSE) ye are not of God. (John 8:47)
Finally, Galatians 5:22 says faith is a "fruit" of the Spirit, therefore you must first have the tree that produces the fruit (the Spirit) in you in order to produce the fruit of faith to believe the gospel. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,". What comes first in nature brother Steaver, the tree growing or the fruit it produces?
God bless,
Brother Joe
Last edited by a moderator:
Okay, The question, precisely, was:
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
They were asking what they can "DO" to "work the works of God"?
The question is put in a way thinking they could work their way to heaven.
Do you agree with that?
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother DHK, look at the verse you just quoted above, notice it says, "this is the work of God, that you believe..." not the work of man.
Is this not consistent with Philippians 2:12-13 that states, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
Also scripture tells us "faith is a fruit of the spirit", therefore you must first have the Spirit to have faith. It is also said to be a "gift of God", therefore man can claim no credit.
God bless,
Brother Joe
Last edited by a moderator:
This was written long before Paul was ever saved. He is carrying on a conversation with the Jews. Christ is not quoting Paul. And IMO, you are quoting Philippians out of context. So let's leave that verse out of this conversation.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
You can leave the verse out of the conversation, but it belongs there, thus you want to leave it out. The verse is explicit in its meaning and does not need a theologian to figure it out. Here it is with the preceding verse included for context "12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.3 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12-13)
Besides this, did not Paul also say, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:" (Romans 7:18), but putting faith in the gospel is a very good thing indeed as that is what the scriptures tell us to do, thus how can you assert the flesh can do this?
Also, Paul tells us, "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God", but how could this be the case if a person "in the flesh" can believe and have their faith reckoned for righteousness, this would please God, wouldn't it?
Finally, James declares "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." (James 1:17) Faith is "good and perfect, thus it must come from above.
God bless,
Brother Joe
- Status