Take up his cross...

[John of Japan]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

By not understanding the culture and times I think many of us never "get" the book of Romans or much of Paul's writings. Paul stressed the fact that Christianity was not just a "sect" of Judiasm. This would have been the easy road to acceptance but none the less a lie.

I think many of us who have only lived in this land with freedom of religion don't truly understand the implications and risk it takes to be a Christian in a non-Christian land. Taking up one's cross is a great sacrifice and a symbol of absolute commitment to Christ and his cause. Even if martyrdom is the price we have to pay.

More and more, I've found the average American Christian to be spiritually soft. If a Japanese young person trusts Christ as Savior and openly comes out for Christ, he or she is likely to be kicked out of the house. (I realize this is possible in some Catholic households too.)

America needs revival!

 

[John of Japan]

I would like to know what you consider the four distinctions to be.

The four signs that you are a disciple (not requirements to become one) are: complete commitment (Luke 4:26), continuing in His Word (John 8:31), love for the brethren (John 13:35) and bearing fruit (John 15:8).

Also, today people don't bear literal crosses. So, I guess, did Jesus specifically mean that some would literally have to be martyred? Is this to be literally interpreted?

How does an American, (I don't want to be self-centered, but this is where I live,) take up his cross, literal or otherwise?

It is a metaphor for being willing to die for Christ. As I said before, I believe taking up your cross means to literally be willing to die for the cause of Jesus Christ. Anyone who is not willing to metaphorically take up a cross (an instrument of capital punishment through torture) and thus show their willingness to sacrifice their life for the cause has not obeyed the Scripture.

To make it practical, would you as an American be willing to leave America, your family, your job, your home, and become a missionary to a Muslim country where people are often killed just because they believe in Jesus Christ?

I feel like I am missing something here. The purpose of scripture is to point us to Christ, not to ourselves.

How could it be pointing us to ourselves to say, "Be willing to die for Christ"? I have found that those who make this commitment are the ones willing to serve Christ with all their hearts. :saint:

 

[Havensdad]

On another subject, and not meaning to hijack this thread, but why did you not come back to your "Evangelist Question" thread? Tom Bryant has given you some good words there and deserves at least a thank you. I listened to your sermon as per your link and would have talked about it with you, but you never came back. Now I don't remember much about it, and I don't have time to re-listen to it since we head to the big city tomorrow to renew the "period of stay" on our visas.

I do apologize. I must admit I got a bit side tracked here. Issues addressing how one is saved is near and dear to my heart. I also have three assignments I am working on, a conference coming up this week, and my back just went out (hit by a car when I was fifteen. Happens about once a year)

I certainly did not mean to leave Tom without a thank you, or you for that matter. Thank you.

BTW I received your E-mail, and am considering it.

 

[LeBuick]

The four signs that you are a disciple (not requirements to become one) are: complete commitment (Luke 4:26), continuing in His Word (John 8:31), love for the brethren (John 13:35) and bearing fruit (John 15:8).

If you get some time later and if you already have the bones laid out I would love to see your outlone for the above...

 

[John of Japan]

I do apologize. I must admit I got a bit side tracked here. Issues addressing how one is saved is near and dear to my heart. I also have three assignments I am working on, a conference coming up this week, and my back just went out (hit by a car when I was fifteen. Happens about once a year)

I certainly did not mean to leave Tom without a thank you, or you for that matter. Thank you.

Busy man! I hope your back gets well soon. I've had it happen.

BTW I received your E-mail, and am considering it.

I think you'd be blessed. Great people, great fellowship, great resources. And the price is right! Tell them I sent you.

God bless.

 

[John of Japan]

If you get some time later and if you already have the bones laid out I would love to see your outlone for the above...

Well, I have a complete outline for it in Japanese--if you have the gift of tongues! :smilewinkgrin:

However, here's all I can find in English. Maybe it adds to the thread. Any of you preachers or teachers are welcome to use it. At least it's alliterated. :laugh:

SIGNS OF A DISCIPLE​

Thayer's basic definition of the Greek word mathetes is: “a learner, pupil, disciple: universally, opposed to didaskalos; one who follows one's teaching-- in a wide sense, in the Gospels, those among the Jews who favored him, joined his party, became his adherents. The word is not found in the O. T, nor in the Epistles of the N. T., nor in the Apocalypse; in Greek writings from (Herodotus), Aristophanes, Xenophon, Plato down.”

BAGD's basic definition (minus all the historical references) of the Greek word mathetes is: “learner, a pupil, a disciple.
1. gener. Pupil, apprentice (in contrast to the teacher)
2. disciple, adherent”

Luke in Acts usually uses the word as a synonym for "believer" or "Christian," notably in Acts 11:26.

Christ gave it additional meaning in the form of four signs that you are a disciple.

1. Complete Commitment (Luke 14:26-33)
2. Continuing in His Word (John 8:31)
3. Compassion (love) for Other Believers (John 13:35)
4. Fruit bearing--Converting the Lost (John 15:8)

 

[nunatak]

The four signs that you are a disciple (not requirements to become one) are: complete commitment (Luke 4:26), continuing in His Word (John 8:31), love for the brethren (John 13:35) and bearing fruit (John 15:8).

It is a metaphor for being willing to die for Christ. As I said before, I believe taking up your cross means to literally be willing to die for the cause of Jesus Christ. Anyone who is not willing to metaphorically take up a cross (an instrument of capital punishment through torture) and thus show their willingness to sacrifice their life for the cause has not obeyed the Scripture.

To make it practical, would you as an American be willing to leave America, your family, your job, your home, and become a missionary to a Muslim country where people are often killed just because they believe in Jesus Christ?

How could it be pointing us to ourselves to say, "Be willing to die for Christ"? I have found that those who make this commitment are the ones willing to serve Christ with all their hearts. :saint:

Thank you. This is much to consider.

I feel like it would be easy to say, yes, I am willing to die for Christ, as I type this on my nice laptop, sitting at my nice desk, in my nice home, as my beautiful family sleeps in the other rooms.

So, since I don't want to be flippant, I won't say it. I hope God gives me grace in the day of testing.

 

[LeBuick]

Well, I have a complete outline for it in Japanese--if you have the gift of tongues! :smilewinkgrin:

I wonder where I left that gift...

Thanks Buddy... :thumbs:

 

[JustChristian]

Apparently you did not actually read his post> he agreed the cost of being saved was high. See he said>



You are, in fact the only person on here who has completely disagreed with me.

My Lord's Grace is NOT cheap! It empowers one, makes them a new creature, puts our old sinful nature to death, and causes us to live a Godly life! Thats not cheap! That is a precious gift!

Rather, the Grace in some individuals false theology is cheap, that attempt to make Christ's sacrifice worthless before the resurrection. But THAT is not the Grace of Christ.

I agree. Christ always asked those who would accept Him as Savior to follow Him and many times to pick up their cross and follow Him. He never said that a simple belief without a complete change in someone's life constitutes a saving experience. He told Nicodemus that "Ye must be born again." In none of these cases was he talking about discipleship as those who espouse easy salvation would have us think. He said that someone must "count the cost" before accepting Him as Savior and Lord just as a king would do before going into battle.

 

[LeBuick]

He said that someone must "count the cost" before accepting Him as Savior and Lord just as a king would do before going into battle.

I thin that should read "accept the cost" which is a little different than going to battle with an earthly king (choice).

 

[JustChristian]

I thin that should read "accept the cost" which is a little different than going to battle with an earthly king (choice).

Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have [sufficient] to finish [it]?


Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

I don't understand your point. It seems to me that Jesus used building a tower and going to war as two situations in which someone must understand and accept the cost of the enterprise before committing to it. In much the same way, we must understand the "cost of decipleship" as Bonhoffer termed it before fully committing ourselves to the Lord.

 

[John of Japan]

I agree. Christ always asked those who would accept Him as Savior to follow Him and many times to pick up their cross and follow Him. He never said that a simple belief without a complete change in someone's life constitutes a saving experience. He told Nicodemus that "Ye must be born again." In none of these cases was he talking about discipleship as those who espouse easy salvation would have us think. He said that someone must "count the cost" before accepting Him as Savior and Lord just as a king would do before going into battle.

I don't think you've been reading the thread. You are giving inaccurate information here. Don't you think that the Bible is worthy of our best efforts? I mean this as a kindly rebuke: you are being careless with God's Word.

I pointed out that there are six places in the Gospel where "take up your cross" or "bear your cross" were mentioned. Let me review and expand: Matt. 10:38 (Christ's message to the 12 before they went out on an evangelistic trip); Matt. 16:24 ("his disciples"); Mark 8:34 ("the people" and "his disciples"); Mark 10:21 (a rich young man); Luke 9:23 ("his disciples" in v. 18); Luke 14:27 ("great multitudes"). Thus, of the 6 times three times were very clearly only to His disciples. I would do further exegesis, but I hope you get the picture.

So your statements above are inaccurate and careless: "Christ always asked those who would accept Him as Savior to follow Him and many times to pick up their cross and follow Him," and, "In none of these cases was he talking about discipleship...." (In Luke 14:27 He uses "discple" and "bear his cross" in the same sentence.) Please, please be very careful and accurate with the Word of God.

 

[Rubato 1]

So, essentially, 'taking up the cross' is to be willing to be considered lowly or a criminal for the cause of Christ (Which is basically a metaphor for being willing to give everything of value in order to follow Christ)?

 

[webdog]

It is to be willing to give the ultimate sacrifice. The same He gave us (death).

 

[HisWordIsTruth]

Take up his cross . . .

The cross was a symbol of death and as such and as such to take up our cross doesn't mean be willing to die, as it doesn't say be willing to take up his cross. It says do it. So it means die.

For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.

We must die to the natural life (wants/desires, etc) so that the manifested life of Christ can be lived out through our members.

As Paul put it we must render ourselves a living "sacrifice" (die). We must die so that Christ may live in us and through us.

 

[Revmitchell]

I don't think you've been reading the thread. You are giving inaccurate information here. Don't you think that the Bible is worthy of our best efforts? I mean this as a kindly rebuke: you are being careless with God's Word.

I pointed out that there are six places in the Gospel where "take up your cross" or "bear your cross" were mentioned. Let me review and expand: Matt. 10:38 (Christ's message to the 12 before they went out on an evangelistic trip); Matt. 16:24 ("his disciples"); Mark 8:34 ("the people" and "his disciples"); Mark 10:21 (a rich young man); Luke 9:23 ("his disciples" in v. 18); Luke 14:27 ("great multitudes"). Thus, of the 6 times three times were very clearly only to His disciples. I would do further exegesis, but I hope you get the picture.

So your statements above are inaccurate and careless: "Christ always asked those who would accept Him as Savior to follow Him and many times to pick up their cross and follow Him," and, "In none of these cases was he talking about discipleship...." (In Luke 14:27 He uses "discple" and "bear his cross" in the same sentence.) Please, please be very careful and accurate with the Word of God.

It is not really appropriate to suggest someone is being careless with scripture because they don't agree with you. In fact that is rather arrogant.

 

[webdog]

It is not really appropriate to suggest someone is being careless with scripture because they don't agree with you. In fact that is rather arrogant.

On the contrary, arrogance manifests itself when truth has been shown and rejected due a presupposed theological viewpoint.

 

[Revmitchell]

On the contrary, arrogance manifests itself when truth has been shown and rejected due a presupposed theological viewpoint.

as if you would know that is the motivation

 

[webdog]

From interaction on this thread and others...could very well be.

 

[JustChristian]

Not really. The message to the RYR was to quit trusting in his wealth and works and to trust in Him. It doesn't compare to "taking up your cros..."

Taking up your cross means that a Christian must be willing to suffer for his faith. He must be willing to make Christ Lord of his life. In the rich young ruler's case his wealth ruled his life and he wasn't willing to give that up to follow Christ. Therefore he went away sorrowful and damned.