Take up his cross...

[webdog]

Taking up your cross means that a Christian must be willing to suffer for his faith. He must be willing to make Christ Lord of his life. In the rich young ruler's case his wealth ruled his life and he wasn't willing to give that up to follow Christ. Therefore he went away sorrowful and damned.

Has nothing to do with that whatsoever. It has to do with giving up your life for Christ as He did for us. You are adding to the text, as it has nothing to do wth "making" Christ Lord. (we don't make Him do anything)

 

[JustChristian]

Has nothing to do with that whatsoever. It has to do with giving up your life for Christ as He did for us. You are adding to the text, as it has nothing to do wth "making" Christ Lord. (we don't make Him do anything)

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Your philosophy doesn't hold true with the word. Which do you serve, God or mammon?

 

[webdog]

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Your philosophy doesn't hold true with the word. Which do you serve, God or mammon?

Well...your philosphy has it that we believers are unable to sin. That doesn't hold true to the Word of God.

 

[John of Japan]

It is not really appropriate to suggest someone is being careless with scripture because they don't agree with you. In fact that is rather arrogant.

Let me see if I understand you. You believe that BaptistBeliever was being careful with the Word of God when he wrote, "Christ always asked those who would accept Him as Savior (my emphasis) to follow Him and many times (my emphasis) to pick up their cross and follow Him," even though the phrase occurs only six times in the NT and none of those times are provably meant for lost people, with three of the mentions being only and specifically to disciples, not the lost. And you believe that he was being careful with the Word of God when he wrote, "In none of these cases (my emphasis) was he talking about discipleship," even though in one of those passages Christ specifically used the term "disciple" along with "bear your cross," and three of the six NT mentions were directed specifically to disciples. Do I have you right?

You also appear to believe that it is okay to call me "arrogant" (a personal attack, an attack on my character) for criticizing a position someone took (not a personal attack). Is that correct, and a fair statement of your views in this matter?

 

[John of Japan]

Take up his cross . . .

The cross was a symbol of death and as such and as such to take up our cross doesn't mean be willing to die, as it doesn't say be willing to take up his cross. It says do it. So it means die.

For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.

We must die to the natural life (wants/desires, etc) so that the manifested life of Christ can be lived out through our members.

As Paul put it we must render ourselves a living "sacrifice" (die). We must die so that Christ may live in us and through us.

To take up your cross doesn't mean that you have died yet. The criminal was forced to carry his cross to the place of death, but he did not die while he was carrying his cross. So I still say that "take up your cross" means to be willing to physically die for Christ.

Having said that, I think you are right in so far that "take up your cross" and "die to self" are both metaphors for complete dedication to Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Revmitchell]

Let me see if I understand you. You believe that BaptistBeliever was being careful with the Word of God when he wrote, "Christ always asked those who would accept Him as Savior to follow Him and many times to pick up their cross and follow Him," even though the phrase occurs only six times in the NT and none of those times are provable meant for lost people. And you believe that he was being careful with the Word of God when he wrote, "In none of these cases (my emphasis) was he talking about discipleship," even though in one of those passages Christ specifically used the term "disciple" along with "bear your cross," and three of the six NT mentions were directed specifically to disciples. Do I have you right?

Neither you nore I know if he was "careful". I very rarely agree with him but he can be careful and be incorrect. Just as you and I can. Let's not assign a carlessness to what other do with regards to scripture unless you were witness to their study on the matter.

You also appear to believe that it is okay to call me "arrogant" (a personal attack, an attack on my character) for criticizing a position someone took (not a personal attack). Is that correct, and a fair statement of your views in this matter?

No different than assigning a careless attitude and or motive to others. And it wasn't about criticizing a position. It was about assigning carelessness to how they reached their position. If you are going to hand out such sharp admonitions to others I suggest you be willing to consider the samefor yourself with the same attitude you expect of others.

 

[nunatak]

You guys have me pretty confused.

A simple question:

Definition: elect=saved (at least here in my post)

According to Scripture, will ALL the elect become disciples, in that they will/must take up their crosses and follow Christ?

Please prove to me your point by Scripture.

 

[John of Japan]

Neither you nore I know if he was "careful". I very rarely agree with him but he can be careful and be incorrect. Just as you and I can. Let's not assign a carlessness to what other do with regards to scripture unless you were witness to their study on the matter.

You are not dealing with the Scriptures. He didn't even mention the Scriptures in his blanket statements. He did not even respond (and still has not) responded to the Scriptures I gave.

I stand by my statement that BaptistBeliever was being careless with the Scripture. And I stand by my statement that that I did not attack BB personally. But you attacked me personally and seem to feel that is quite all right.

No different than assigning a careless attitude and or motive to others. And it wasn't about criticizing a position. It was about assigning carelessness to how they reached their position. If you are going to hand out such sharp admonitions to others I suggest you be willing to consider the samefor yourself with the same attitude you expect of others.

I said not a single word about motives or attitude. I mentioned one single paragraph by BaptistBeliever, not a consistent attitude. As it happens, this is the first time I've ever interacted with this person on the BB, and don't even remember reading posts by BB. It may be that BB was careless this one time and is usually not. I don't know. So I am not attacking BB for a careless attitude, and certainly not for motives. You are dead wrong.

As for my attitude, I said very clearly to BaptistBeliever that I meant what I said as a kindly rebuke. Now if BB is wise, he will love me for it, as the book of Proverbs says. If he loves the Word of God he will try to be more careful with how he approaches it.

Proverbs 9:8-9. "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning."

 

[HisWordIsTruth]

To take up your cross doesn't mean that you have died yet.

Correct. I apologize if that is the idea I was conveying, because it wasn't mean. The cross "meant" death. If you were sentenced to a cross you were sentenced to die.

Now I'm sure there may be a story or two of someone surviving a crucifixion, but I would seriously doubt that it would be without intervention. If you went to the cross you were going to die.

So I still say that "take up your cross" means to be willing to physically die for Christ.

The problem that I have with this is that is not what is said. It doesn't say "be willing to die physically", and when we compare Scripture with Scripture it seems that the idea is that we are to die to self. Of course we have to be willing to do this as it is not a guarantee that we will .

Having said that, I think you are right in so far that "take up your cross" and "die to self" are both metaphors for complete dedication to Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes!

 

[JustChristian]

Well...your philosphy has it that we believers are unable to sin. That doesn't hold true to the Word of God.

I never have said that. We will continue to sin but will repent and get back on the straight and narrow. You seem to believe that since Christians aren't perfect they should continue their sinful life that they lived before they were saved. The Bible doesn't support that kind of easy salvation.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[John of Japan]

I never have said that. We will continue to sin but will repent and get back on the straight and narrow. You seem to believe that since Christians aren't perfect they should continue their sinful life that they lived before they were saved. The Bible doesn't support that kind of easy salvation.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Please be more careful with God's holy Word. This passage has nothing to do with whether or not a person is saved. Note carefully the context. It is talking about false prophets, according to verse 15.

 

[Revmitchell]

Please be more careful with God's holy Word. This passage has nothing to do with whether or not a person is saved. Note carefully the context. It is talking about false prophets, according to verse 15.

Once again you are incorrect. Do you truly think this passage must be kept to false teachers only in application? Is it not true that a lost person is known by their fruits? Or are you of the false belief that we can recognize false teachers by their behavior but in general we cannot know a lost person simply because we do not see their heart?

Whether you do or not this is a lie that has infected the church and lead to the grave corruption.

John 15 supports the understanding BB has articulated as well. The fruit of the lost is clear and the fruit of the regenerate is clear. Both passages apply to BB's point.

 

[John of Japan]

:smilewinkgrin:

Once again you are incorrect. Do you truly think this passage must be kept to false teachers only in application? Is it not true that a lost person is known by their fruits? Or are you of the false belief that we can recognize false teachers by their behavior but in general we cannot know a lost person simply because we do not see their heart?

Whether you do or not this is a lie that has infected the church and lead to the grave corruption.

John 15 supports the understanding BB has articulated as well. The fruit of the lost is clear and the fruit of the regenerate is clear. Both passages apply to BB's point.

"Once again???" You have never even interacted with the first set of Scriptures I gave telling every single time "take up your cross" or "bear your cross" occurs. And you say "Once again" I am wrong. Whew! That takes nerve!

And no, I'm not wrong. Verses 15-16 of Matt. 7 says "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits." Now, for you and BB to be right, somewhere between verse 15 and 20, the place he started quoting, there has to be a switch in subjects from "false prophets" to "false disciples" or some such term. Can you find such a switch? Nope. On the contrary, v. 22 is clearly talking once again about false prophets, because what average false disciple claims to be doing mighty works in Christ's name?

Here is what I am about: taking the Word of God for what it says, no more or no less. And yes, I am of the correct belief that when Jesus talks specifically about "false prophets," we should not use His words carelessly to mean something else. Whether or not we can be fruit inspectors and tell whether or not someone is saved, this is not the passage to prove it.

You are welcome to quote from John 15 (instead of simply referencing it and making broad statements) and try to prove your point. I'd be happy to interact with you on that. (You currently have no idea what I believe about the subject, only that I don't accept Matt. 7 as referring to anything but false prophets.)

But hey, you know what, it would be even better if BaptistBeliever his (or her) own self would answer me directly. You keep answering for him (or her). I'm sure BaptistBeliever is of age and can answer me. You are starting to remind me of "Cruden the Corrector.":smilewinkgrin:

 

[Revmitchell]

:smilewinkgrin:
"Once again???" You have never even interacted with the first set of Scriptures I gave telling every single time "take up your cross" or "bear your cross" occurs. And you say "Once again" I am wrong. Whew! That takes nerve!

And no, I'm not wrong. Verses 15-16 of Matt. 7 says "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits." Now, for you and BB to be right, somewhere between verse 15 and 20, the place he started quoting, there has to be a switch in subjects from "false prophets" to "false disciples" or some such term. Can you find such a switch? Nope. On the contrary, v. 22 is clearly talking once again about false prophets, because what average false disciple claims to be doing mighty works in Christ's name?

Here is what I am about: taking the Word of God for what it says, no more or no less. And yes, I am of the correct belief that when Jesus talks specifically about "false prophets," we should not use His words carelessly to mean something else. Whether or not we can be fruit inspectors and tell whether or not someone is saved, this is not the passage to prove it.

You are welcome to quote from John 15 (instead of simply referencing it and making broad statements) and try to prove your point. I'd be happy to interact with you on that. (You currently have no idea what I believe about the subject, only that I don't accept Matt. 7 as referring to anything but false prophets.)

But hey, you know what, it would be even better if BaptistBeliever his (or her) own self would answer me directly. You keep answering for him (or her). I'm sure BaptistBeliever is of age and can answer me. You are starting to remind me of "Cruden the Corrector.":smilewinkgrin:

You seem to be willing to look past the bigger context here which is recognizing the behavior of the lost. The specific warning toward false teachers is simply an application to the bigger context. In verses 21 and further Christ makes more broad statements with this regard and is not specific to false teachers which was the bigger part of BB's post.

And if you want a private conversation on this with BB there is always the pm option. If you are going to post in the forums be prepared for responses from anyone.

I find it interesting and rather hypocritical of you to imply that I am intruding int a conversation between you and BB when in fact you responded to a post made by BB toward webdog.

 

[John of Japan]

You seem to be willing to look past the bigger context here which is recognizing the behavior of the lost. The specific warning toward false teachers is simply an application to the bigger context. In verses 21 and further Christ makes more broad statements with this regard and is not specific to false teachers which was the bigger part of BB's post.

And if you want a private conversation on this with BB there is always the pm option. If you are going to post in the forums be prepared for responses from anyone.

I find it interesting and rather hypocritical of you to imply that I am intruding int a conversation between you and BB when in fact you responded to a post made by BB toward webdog.

Okay, first I'm arrogant and now I'm hypocritical. (You missed the smiley.) I'm tired of the personal attacks. I'm out of here.

 

[JustChristian]

I don't think you've been reading the thread. You are giving inaccurate information here. Don't you think that the Bible is worthy of our best efforts? I mean this as a kindly rebuke: you are being careless with God's Word.

I pointed out that there are six places in the Gospel where "take up your cross" or "bear your cross" were mentioned. Let me review and expand: Matt. 10:38 (Christ's message to the 12 before they went out on an evangelistic trip); Matt. 16:24 ("his disciples"); Mark 8:34 ("the people" and "his disciples"); Mark 10:21 (a rich young man); Luke 9:23 ("his disciples" in v. 18); Luke 14:27 ("great multitudes"). Thus, of the 6 times three times were very clearly only to His disciples. I would do further exegesis, but I hope you get the picture.

So your statements above are inaccurate and careless: "Christ always asked those who would accept Him as Savior to follow Him and many times to pick up their cross and follow Him," and, "In none of these cases was he talking about discipleship...." (In Luke 14:27 He uses "discple" and "bear his cross" in the same sentence.) Please, please be very careful and accurate with the Word of God.

A very shallow and ill-considered argument. You didn't come close to proving your point which was (?)

 

[John of Japan]

A very shallow and ill-considered argument. You didn't come close to proving your point which was (?)

So are you saying you stand by your statements, which I will once again quote? You said, "Christ always asked those who would accept Him as Savior to follow Him and many times to pick up their cross and follow Him," and, "In none of these cases was he talking about discipleship...."

If you are standing by these statements, you are ignoring the Biblical data, which once again is: concerning your first statement, the term "take up (or bear) your cross" occurs only six times, and of those three are specifically to disciples and the other three cannot be proven to be said to lost people. So it is careless of you to say "Christ always..." (emphasis mine).

And concerning your second statement, in three of the cases Christ was specifically talking to disciples, and in one statement the terms "bear your cross" and "disciple" even occur in the same verse. So Christ certainly was talking about discipleship. So it is careless of you to say, "In none of these cases (emphasis mine) was he talking about discipleship."

I simply gave Biblical data that proved you wrong. So please answer me on the Biblical data I gave instead of just calling the data "shallow and ill-considered."

 

[JustChristian]

Please be more careful with God's holy Word. This passage has nothing to do with whether or not a person is saved. Note carefully the context. It is talking about false prophets, according to verse 15.

There's a mention of false prophets in ONE verse. It's simply ONE example of who this chapter is addressing. Take a more careful look at scripture.

 

[John of Japan]

There's a mention of false prophets in ONE verse. It's simply ONE example of who this chapter is addressing. Take a more careful look at scripture.

The "one mention" of false prophets occurs in v. 15. This sets the context for the verses on fruit. From v. 15 to v. 20, the pronouns "they" and "them" them must, gramatically, refer to the false prophets of v. 15. There is no other possibility in either the grammar of the English Bible or Greek NT grammar. Anytime you start interpreting Scripture out of context you have started down the proverbial "slippery slope," and can end up in false doctrine. Beware.

 

[JustChristian]

The "one mention" of false prophets occurs in v. 15. This sets the context for the verses on fruit. From v. 15 to v. 20, the pronouns "they" and "them" them must, gramatically, refer to the false prophets of v. 15. There is no other possibility in either the grammar of the English Bible or Greek NT grammar. Anytime you start interpreting Scripture out of context you have started down the proverbial "slippery slope," and can end up in false doctrine. Beware.

The problem with your interpretation is that Jesus throughout his ministry taught the necessity of following Him with regard to salvation. It's not an argument about one verse, it's a position on the whole of Jesus' ministry.

And when de described the Judgment in MA 25 it was very clear.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

I know you'll want to call this the "Bema Seat Judgment" and claim it's all about rewards and doesn't refer to eternal salvation but I don't see THAT in the scripture.