Taxonomy of Fundamentalism (IFB)

[John of Japan]

John, I agree with you.

The IFB movement didn't rise and fall on Dr. Rice. Certainly, he had literally millions of dollars flowing through his work - especially that of the Sword of the Lord, but not one hint of scandal. He was a great man of integrity, honesty, humility and generosity.

I miss him.

Thank you for the kind words about my grandpa. I miss him deeply too, of course.

Folks, The Sword of the Lord was not just distributed to IFB churches and readers. I read it regularly as a SB. It had wide appeal and audience while under the control of Dr. Rice.

There have been at least three doctoral dissertations about John R. Rice by SBC scholars, and it is not too much to say that the SBC conservative resurgence was strongly influenced by him, since he was friends and even somewhat of a mentor to several SBC leaders, Criswell in particular.

This closeness to events in the SBC is what got JRR in trouble with the FBF/BJU segment of fundamentalism. So there is one faction that did not follow JRR, especially after 1972 when the break occurred between JRR and Bob Jones Jr.

The IFB movement never coalesced around a single person. It never will. That is the independent part.

Exactly. For example, the GARB churches never were enthusiastic followers of JRR, having their own leaders (who, by the way, were friends and equals with JRR). The BBF for their part had a rocky relationship with the JRR-led type of IFBs. In particular, they objected to his preaching and writing against storehouse tithing. And again, they had their own leaders who were friends and equals with JRR.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

A Question For JoJ

Thank you for the kind words about my grandpa. I miss him deeply too, of course.
There have been at least three doctoral dissertations about John R. Rice by SBC scholars, and it is not too much to say that the SBC conservative resurgence was strongly influenced by him, since he was friends and even somewhat of a mentor to several SBC leaders, Criswell in particular.

This closeness to events in the SBC is what got JRR in trouble with the FBF/BJU segment of fundamentalism. So there is one faction that did not follow JRR, especially after 1972 when the break occurred between JRR and Bob Jones Jr.

Exactly. For example, the GARB churches never were enthusiastic followers of JRR, having their own leaders (who, by the way, were friends and equals with JRR). The BBF for their part had a rocky relationship with the JRR-led type of IFBs. In particular, they objected to his preaching and writing against storehouse tithing. And again, they had their own leaders who were friends and equals with JRR.

John, I was never aware that your granddad preached and taught against storehouse tithing. That would have definitely gotten him in trouble with a lot of what I'll call "lockstep" Baptists who are adamant that ST is commanded for the NT church. Can you please reference his work on this subject? I'd definitely like to see what he had to say on the subject. If he taught against it then that is just one more thing I agree with him about!

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[John of Japan]

John, I was never aware that your granddad preached and taught against storehouse tithing. That would have definitely gotten him in trouble with a lot of what I'll call "lockstep" Baptists who are adamant that ST is commanded for the NT church. Can you please reference his work on this subject? I'd definitely like to see what he had to say on the subject. If he taught against it then that is just one more thing I agree with him about!

Bro.Greg:saint:

By now you've seen the link Salty gave in the OP of his storehouse tithing thread.

JRR's principle work on the subject was his book, All About Christian Giving, which can be bought cheaply on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ADUZ7D2/?tag=baptis04-20

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Yes but Thanks

By now you've seen the link Salty gave in the OP of his storehouse tithing thread.

JRR's principle work on the subject was his book, All About Christian Giving, which can be bought cheaply on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ADUZ7D2/?tag=baptis04-20

Thanks John...yeah I got that now...but it's nice to see you're still here!:thumbs:

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks John...yeah I got that now...but it's nice to see you're still here!:thumbs:

Bro.Greg:saint:

We'll see. I'm debating with myself.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Hummmmm!

We'll see. I'm debating with myself.

I'll be praying that the half that wants to STAY wins....:laugh:!

Bro.Greg
raying:

 

[fmcsimmons]

John, thanks for the list. It was helpful.

Pity about the derailing.

 

[John of Japan]

John, thanks for the list. It was helpful.

Glad it was a help. Few non-IFB people seem to realize the differences, but there can be quite a difference between IFB churches.

Pity about the derailing.

That seems to happen a lot here! :BangHead:

Welcome to the BB anyway. :wavey:

 

[evangelist6589]

Glad it was a help. Few non-IFB people seem to realize the differences, but there can be quite a difference between IFB churches.

That seems to happen a lot here! :BangHead:

Welcome to the BB anyway. :wavey:

Is that right? I went to BJU and know the diff between IFB churches. But I am no longer IFB and have gone back to New Evangelicalism (as they call it). Guess the Way of the Master is also a part of the "New Evangelical" movement as well.

 

[John of Japan]

Is that right? I went to BJU and know the diff between IFB churches.

Can you tell me the differences between GARBC and BBF churches?

But I am no longer IFB and have gone back to New Evangelicalism (as they call it).

Actually, the term New Evangelicalism was not invented by fundamentalists, but by one of the founders of the New Evangelical movement, Harold Ockenga. He wrote, "Neo-evangelicalism was born in 1948 in connection with a convocation address which I gave in the Civic Auditorium in Pasadena. While reaffirming the theological view of fundamentalism, this address repudiated its ecclesiology and its social theory" (Foreword in Battle for the Bible by Harold Lindsell, p. 11).

Guess the Way of the Master is also a part of the "New Evangelical" movement as well.

Personally, if a person is witnessing for Christ I don't care how they do it as long as they give the pure Gospel. I'm glad for their witness.

 

[evangelist6589]

Can you tell me the differences between GARBC and BBF churches?

Actually, the term New Evangelicalism was not invented by fundamentalists, but by one of the founders of the New Evangelical movement, Harold Ockenga. He wrote, "Neo-evangelicalism was born in 1948 in connection with a convocation address which I gave in the Civic Auditorium in Pasadena. While reaffirming the theological view of fundamentalism, this address repudiated its ecclesiology and its social theory" (Foreword in Battle for the Bible by Harold Lindsell, p. 11).

Personally, if a person is witnessing for Christ I don't care how they do it as long as they give the pure Gospel. I'm glad for their witness.

But they play Contemporary Christian music, many of the witnesses use the NIV, and such. Well thats good if you think this way. It shows maturity on your end.

 

[evangelist6589]

Can you tell me the differences between GARBC and BBF churches?

GARBC
From Separation to Inclusivism

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/garbc/inclu.htm

It sounds allot like this is a moderate Fundamentalist group that does not hold to separation like normal Fundamentalists.

BBF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptist_Bible_Fellowship_International

Sounds like another moderate group especially with associations with Liberty. At BJU they would not even play sports with Liberty and they were only a few hours away. BJU wanted nothing to do with Liberty University.

This website seems to outline the various Fundamental colleges.

http://www.fundamentalforums.com

 

[John of Japan]

I'm hoping that with this post (1) you will realize that there are various IFB groups you know next to nothing about. (2) There is much about any group you cannot learn on the Internet. (3) We should not broad brush a movement as diverse as the fundamentalist movement.

GARBC
From Separation to Inclusivism

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/garbc/inclu.htm

It sounds allot like this is a moderate Fundamentalist group that does not hold to separation like normal Fundamentalists.

If the GARBC is not composed of "normal fundamentalists," there is no such thing. They would be offended to hear that they are not "normal fundamentalists." Their roots go all the way back to the fundamentalist vs. modernist disputes of the Northern Baptist Convention, and the fellowship was founded in 1932 out of the NBC. As northern fundamentalists they have more of an emphasis on scholarship than the southern types. Another place where they differ from the BBF is that while the BBF still has their approved schools and mission board, the GARBC departed from have approved institutions some time ago. The GARBC pastors are also much less likely to be KJVO, though they take a very strong stand on verbal-plenary inspiration and the other fundamentals. The rest of us IFB missionaries fellowship well with the GARBC types.

With over 1300 churches in their fellowship, any discussion of the IFB movement that leaves this group out is ignorant.

BBF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptist_Bible_Fellowship_International

Sounds like another moderate group especially with associations with Liberty. At BJU they would not even play sports with Liberty and they were only a few hours away. BJU wanted nothing to do with Liberty University.

The roots of the BBF are southern going back to J. Frank Norris leaving the SBC in the 1930s, with the leaders cutting ties with Norris's WBF and starting the BBF in 1950.

They are strong separatists, even exclusivist in regards to other IFB groups at times. Here in Hokkaido the BBF missionaries and pastors all fellowship with us other types except for one Japanese pastor who fellowships with no one but BBF people. The BBF is very strong on soul-winning and missions, and this has helped their growth to be very strong since their founding. They are strongest in the West.

Currently the BBF is undergoing upheaval as many of the traditionalists are upset at the approved school (Baptist Bible College), which I have heard is allowing CCM and modern translations. The traditionalists are supporting Heartland Baptist Bible College in Oklahoma City. Unfortunately this is affecting the missionaries, who are losing support as the supporting churches take sides.

The relationship of the BBF with Falwell is complicated, and I can only briefly touch on it here. Falwell was mentored by John R. Rice (I met Falwell at the JRR funeral in 1980) and by BBF leader John Rawlings (who died at 99 in January). Their more moderate approach to ecclesiastical separation (eschewing secondary separation) explains the current stance of Liberty. (See In Search of Unity by Ed Dobson.)

With 4500 N. American churches and 10,000 more worldwide, those who ignore this IFB group when discussing the IFB movement display their ignorance.

This website seems to outline the various Fundamental colleges.
http://www.fundamentalforums.com

Um, no, that's just a forum for grads of the various schools to fellowship.

 

[evangelist6589]

What books are you reading? I do have the following Fundamentalist books

Reforming Fundamentalism
In Pursuit of Purity
Promise Unfulfilled

I bet I learned this material in that course but forgot about it as it was in 2009.

Hey what type of Fundamentalist are Midonite and Plymouth Brethren? At BJU I met those types as well.

I'm hoping that with this post (1) you will realize that there are various IFB groups you know next to nothing about. (2) There is much about any group you cannot learn on the Internet. (3) We should not broad brush a movement as diverse as the fundamentalist movement.

If the GARBC is not composed of "normal fundamentalists," there is no such thing. They would be offended to hear that they are not "normal fundamentalists." Their roots go all the way back to the fundamentalist vs. modernist disputes of the Northern Baptist Convention, and the fellowship was founded in 1932 out of the NBC. As northern fundamentalists they have more of an emphasis on scholarship than the southern types. Another place where they differ from the BBF is that while the BBF still has their approved schools and mission board, the GARBC departed from have approved institutions some time ago. The GARBC pastors are also much less likely to be KJVO, though they take a very strong stand on verbal-plenary inspiration and the other fundamentals. The rest of us IFB missionaries fellowship well with the GARBC types.

With over 1300 churches in their fellowship, any discussion of the IFB movement that leaves this group out is ignorant.

The roots of the BBF are southern going back to J. Frank Norris leaving the SBC in the 1930s, with the leaders cutting ties with Norris's WBF and starting the BBF in 1950.

They are strong separatists, even exclusivist in regards to other IFB groups at times. Here in Hokkaido the BBF missionaries and pastors all fellowship with us other types except for one Japanese pastor who fellowships with no one but BBF people. The BBF is very strong on soul-winning and missions, and this has helped their growth to be very strong since their founding. They are strongest in the West.

Currently the BBF is undergoing upheaval as many of the traditionalists are upset at the approved school (Baptist Bible College), which I have heard is allowing CCM and modern translations. The traditionalists are supporting Heartland Baptist Bible College in Oklahoma City. Unfortunately this is affecting the missionaries, who are losing support as the supporting churches take sides.

The relationship of the BBF with Falwell is complicated, and I can only briefly touch on it here. Falwell was mentored by John R. Rice (I met Falwell at the JRR funeral in 1980) and by BBF leader John Rawlings (who died at 99 in January). Their more moderate approach to ecclesiastical separation (eschewing secondary separation) explains the current stance of Liberty. (See In Search of Unity by Ed Dobson.)

With 4500 N. American churches and 10,000 more worldwide, those who ignore this IFB group when discussing the IFB movement display their ignorance.
Um, no, that's just a forum for grads of the various schools to fellowship.

 

[John of Japan]

What books are you reading? I do have the following Fundamentalist books

Reforming Fundamentalism
In Pursuit of Purity
Promise Unfulfilled

I listed my current reading in the other thread. Most of what I read nowadays is for my ministry: books on missiology, translation theory, linguistics, etc.

I bet I learned this material in that course but forgot about it as it was in 2009.

To get a real picture of the different fellowships of the IFB movement, George Dollar's A History of Fundamentalism helps, though it's out of date.

Hey what type of Fundamentalist are Midonite and Plymouth Brethren? At BJU I met those types as well.

I've never heard of the Midonites.

The Plymouth Brethren used to be solidly fundamental, with leaders such as C. I. Scofield and H. A. Ironside, but I don't know much about them nowadays.

 

[Jerome]

Hey what type of Fundamentalist are Midonite

You mean Mennonite?

 

[evangelist6589]

You mean Mennonite?

Yes. What type?

 

[Tom Bryant]

Yes. What type?

Never heard that Mennonites - my uncles family are all mennonites ever considered themselves or would be considered as fundamentalists.

 

[Don]

See, this is the problem: Evangelist6589 attended BJU, and that's the extent of his personal experience with "fundamentalists." He's subsequently made the logical fallacy of saying that because he personally knows this small sub-group, then the entire group must be like that. Including some of those that aren't actually in the group.

 

[John of Japan]

See, this is the problem: Evangelist6589 attended BJU, and that's the extent of his personal experience with "fundamentalists." He's subsequently made the logical fallacy of saying that because he personally knows this small sub-group, then the entire group must be like that. Including some of those that aren't actually in the group.

And that's the trouble with most of the IFB critics on the Internet. All they know is what they read. "I read it on the Internet, so it must be true!"

Evangelist6589 did not answer me when I asked in response to his charge of ignorance in fundamentalism if his profs at BJU grad school were ignorant. In fact, I've always found BJU to be pretty scholarly in contrast to some elements of our movement. So I suspect in his heart he knows better.