Teachings of Zane Hodges.

[webdog]

It's the Gospel of the Kingdom.

How can you call it the Gospel (translation: good news)? What news is good from this doctrine knowing that no believer can ever know they have done enough, or if they are excluded or not? That's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one...

 

[James_Newman]

How can you call it the Gospel (translation: good news)? What news is good from this doctrine knowing that no believer can ever know they have done enough, or if they are excluded or not? That's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one...

Thats funny because I hear that same teaching applied to eternal salvation every day and called the gospel. The good news is that Jesus' blood gives you the power to overcome the sin in your life, and if you will avail yourself of it you will be crowned in glory. But the good news has a bad news that goes with it. Just as the gospel of free grace salvation is good news to those who believe, it's bad news for those who don't.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Thats funny because I hear that same teaching applied to eternal salvation every day and called the gospel. The good news is that Jesus' blood gives you the power to overcome the sin in your life, and if you will avail yourself of it you will be crowned in glory. But the good news has a bad news that goes with it. Just as the gospel of free grace salvation is good news to those who believe, it's bad news for those who don't.

That was my first thought, too, James. How can it be good news if you don't know if you've done enough to escape the lake of fire for all eternity?

Jesus died that all might be saved, but his blood was shed for many. Who are the many and why was his blood shed?

BTW, if you want a copy of Dr. A. E. Wilson's book in Word format, drop me a PM.

 

[J. Jump]

How can you call it the Gospel (translation: good news)?

Well the simple answer is because the Bible does and that's good enough for me.

Matthew 4:23 - Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.

Matthew 9:35 - Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

Matthew 24:14 - "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

[EdSutton]

I have not read Dr. DeHanns' commentary. I will try to obtain a copy and read it.

But I would like explore writings from other sources that
give viable arguments against the Two Salvations teaching, not just those who are for the Two Salvations teaching.

The only source I have right now is the MBC site.

A solution would be to give a list of the the main proponents
(Hodge and Wilkins of course.) and opponents in this ongoing debate on the "Two Salvations" teaching.

I am open and willing to read and study both sides, for and against.

Just an aside; what would be the correct terminology, Two Salvations or Kingdom
Exclusion?

God Bless and have a good weekend.

While I have nothing for or against any site, per se, I'm sure you can, if you put forth minimal effort, find more than the MBC site, without leaving the computer. Try searching for "Kingdom of God, teachings", or something like that. I'm almost sure it will pop up hundreds of potential sites. I'll even suggest trying Phil Johnson's Benchmark sites, and the sites under Grace, Millenium (sp.), and prophecy, and Salvation in the Millenium. By now you will have had thousands of potential 'hits'.

Ed

 

[Lacy Evans]

I have not read Dr. DeHanns' commentary. I will try to obtain a copy and read it.

But I would like explore writings from other sources that
give viable arguments against the Two Salvations teaching, not just those who are for the Two Salvations teaching.

DeHaan is not what I would call a Millennial Exclusionist. He does however have salvation and reward properly separated. I interjected his name into the conversation in an attempt to establish a place where we might find some common ground. He properly interprets the warnings in the book of Hebrews as addressed to and applicable to Christians. (Not "false professors", Jews in the trib, etc.) He also allows for negative reward at the JSOC.

"It says [in 1 Cor 3.15) he 'shall suffer loss', not enjoy it!"

It is very Biblically sound, as one might expect from Dr. DeHaan.

lacy

 

[webdog]

Well the simple answer is because the Bible does and that's good enough for me.

Matthew 4:23 - Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.

Matthew 9:35 - Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

Matthew 24:14 - "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The gospel of the kingdom is not a second salvation teaching. It is the ONLY salvation teaching.

 

[J. Jump]

The gospel of the kingdom is not a second salvation teaching. It is the ONLY salvation teaching.

Then you are left with no other choice but to believe in a works-based salvation that is just as much you as it is Christ, because the gospel of the kingdom can not be separated from works.

And with that you would have to explain the contradiction that is left, because Scripture says that man's works in no way at any point ever enter spiritual salvation. It is based ONLY on the works of Christ and Him alone.

Then you are also going to have to explain the contradiction as to how spiritual salvation is a one-time event, but how that Truth ties in with the Truth that kingdom salvation is based on endurance and suffering and a continual believing.

I will be interested to hear how you deal with this contradictions.

 

[webdog]

Then you are left with no other choice but to believe in a works-based salvation...

No, a works based reward system.

 

[James_Newman]

Matthew 5:19-22
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

[J. Jump]

No, a works based reward system.

Webdog it's either the same message as spiritual salvation or it's a works based reward system. Those aren't the same thing.

Spiritual salvation and rewards are two totally different subjects. It's apples and oranges.

 

[webdog]

Webdog it's either the same message as spiritual salvation or it's a works based reward system. Those aren't the same thing.

Spiritual salvation and rewards are two totally different subjects. It's apples and oranges.

I agree, and to state that when the Bible is referring to our works, it means Kingdom salvation, is not a correct view.

The Scripture James posted is great, and shows this difference.

 

[James_Newman]

You mean the scripture that shows the Kingdom is a works based reward? Amen!

 

[akrahnert]

Then you are left with no other choice but to believe in a works-based salvation that is just as much you as it is Christ, because the gospel of the kingdom can not be separated from works.

And with that you would have to explain the contradiction that is left, because Scripture says that man's works in no way at any point ever enter spiritual salvation. It is based ONLY on the works of Christ and Him alone.

Then you are also going to have to explain the contradiction as to how spiritual salvation is a one-time event, but how that Truth ties in with the Truth that kingdom salvation is based on endurance and suffering and a continual believing.

I will be interested to hear how you deal with this contradictions.

J.Jump,

We have then;

1. Spiritual Salvation.

Which is by grace alone by faith alone in Christ alone. No works are involved, "lest any man should boast." This is saving faith, giving us eternal life.

2. Kingdom Salvation.

Which is by the works we manifest by our being saved and having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ("If we are in the Spirit, let us walk in the Spirit") and living a sanctified life in Christ. In other words, faith then works, with works being the evidence of salvation and living a sanctified life. Thus by the works that we produce, this will enable us to receive our rewards, including the inheritance of the Kingdom, that is, the ability to reign and rule with Christ in the Millenial Kingdom.

With works comes rewards; no works, no rewards, yet we are still saved?

Does this also include the "fruit of the Spirit" as manifested works?

Is this what Hodges is essentially saying? I hope I have understood this at least in its basic form. I might have missed something.

 

[J. Jump]

I agree,

Webdog how can you agree when just a few posts back you said this:

The gospel of the kingdom is not a second salvation teaching. It is the ONLY salvation teaching.

Does spiritual salvation = kingdom salvation or are they two different messages?

 

[Plain Old Bill]

I am not that familiar with Zane Hodges, so I am just asking a sincere question,so please take it for what it is. Are Zanes writings so unclear as to create misunderstandings about what he is trying to say or does he just say things which are wrong or incorrect?

 

[Linda64]

Here's a short background on Zane Hodges:

Zane Hodges was Professor of New Testament at Dallas Theological Seminary for many years. He has done a considerable amount of work in the area of textual criticism and has been a strong defender of the Majority Text. He is to be commended for his scholarly work, The Greek New Testament According to the Majority Text (Thomas Nelson, 1982).

Zane Hodges is a Bible believer and a strong defender of the great doctrines of the Bible such as the inerrancy of the Scriptures, the virgin birth, the deity of Christ, the substitutionary atonement, etc. Those who know Zane Hodges speak of him as a man of outstanding Christian character and devotion.

For many years Zane Hodges has been one of the most outspoken proponents of a doctrinal position that insists a person can depart from the faith, deny Christ totally, persist in sin, stop being a believer, deny all the fundamentals of the faith, mock the gospel, and yet still be counted among those who are truly saved. Hodges and others insist that a true believer may or may not continue in the faith unto the end. According to this teaching, a person can have the TRUE ROOT (saving faith) but not necessarily have the TRUE FRUIT (good works). His books which present this position are The Hungry Inherit, The Gospel Under Siege—A Study on Faith and Works, and Grace in Eclipse—A Study on Eternal Rewards. These last two books are published by REDENCION VIVA, Box 141167, Dallas, TX 75214. Also Hodges contributed to The Bible Knowledge Commentary (a commentary done by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary). In this commentary Hodges contributed the commentaries on Hebrews and 1,2,3 John, where his views on faith and works and assurance of salvation are clearly enunciated. In more recent years he has written commentaries on The Epistles of John and The Epistles of James both published by the Grace Evangelical Society.

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/GES01.htm

You are probably going to have to check out Zane Hodges for yourself. What I see happening is this: The teachings of Zane Hodges (Joseph Dillow, Robert Wilkin, & the extreme teachings of J.D.Faust) are held up as accurate and biblical --the Word of God takes second place and the teachings of these guys seem to take precedence. The Word of God is interpreted by the teachings of these men, instead of the reverse. Instead of being biblical Bereans (Acts 17:11), some are taking these teachings as truth without checking them out with Scriptures. The truth is being stretched to the max in order to make these false teachings to fit the Word of God.

 

[J. Jump]

We have then;

1. Spiritual Salvation.

Which is by grace alone by faith alone in Christ alone. No works are involved, "lest any man should boast." This is saving faith, giving us eternal life.

2. Kingdom Salvation.

Which is by the works we manifest by our being saved and having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ("If we are in the Spirit, let us walk in the Spirit") and living a sanctified life in Christ. In other words, faith then works, with works being the evidence of salvation and living a sanctified life. Thus by the works that we produce, this will enable us to receive our rewards, including the inheritance of the Kingdom, that is, the ability to reign and rule with Christ in the Millenial Kingdom.

With works comes rewards; no works, no rewards, yet we are still saved?

Does this also include the "fruit of the Spirit" as manifested works?

Is this what Hodges is essentially saying? I hope I have understood this at least in its basic form. I might have missed something.

akrahnert I believe you have it correct, but I would change one thing is that works are not an evidence of our past salvation. There is no evidence of this. We either are or we are not.

You could say that works eminating out of faith is evidence that we will be saved in the future as I or II Peter says at the end of our faith.

Other than that I would say you are right on the button as far as I can tell.

Now whether or not this is exactly what Hodges believes or not I am not sure as I am not entirely familiar with his writings. However if I was to guess I would say that he does not believe that anyone will be excluded from the kingdom.

And I say that because the former pastor of the church we are currently attending wrote a book on the judgment seat of Christ and while he held that the warnings belonged to saved individuals and they could suffer loss it would be a much more temporary loss. And Hodges wrote a supportive bit in his book, so I would say Hodges agrees with him.

If that is the case this would be where I disagree with them, because they believe rewards are tied to eternity not the kingdom, so they contradict themselves because they believe in wailing and gnashing of teeth but say it's only temporary while everything else is eternal.

And that gets a bit confusing

 

[J. Jump]

Are Zanes writings so unclear as to create misunderstandings about what he is trying to say or does he just say things which are wrong or incorrect?

Plain Old Bill I would say that the doctrine that Christians are going to be held accountable for their actions and they will be negative consequences, and more than just a losing of something that one never had has not been regularly taught in churches for some time now. And when it is brought up people are confused or misunderstand what is being said, becuase the Truth has been far removed from our churches.

Church today is more about how many bottoms you can have fill pews and how big of a building you can build with how many fountains and coffee shops and book stores and the like.

If you teach people there are consequences for their actions and some of them aren't too pretty they aren't going to stick around long. And we have evidence of this throughout the gospel accounts.

 

[webdog]

You mean the scripture that shows the Kingdom is a works based reward? Amen!

If that Scripture was your proof text, brother you have problems!

Matthew 5:19-22
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

The part I enlarged shows that unless our righteousness exceeds that of those who are not righteous (scribes/ pharisees), we cannot enter the kingdom. This is an eternal saved / not saved issue. The lost will not inherit the kingdom in the first place. What this text is telling us is simply if we follow a works based life in hopes of being saved, we will be in for a huge surprise!