Teachings of Zane Hodges.

[Hope of Glory]

I am not that familiar with Zane Hodges, so I am just asking a sincere question,so please take it for what it is. Are Zanes writings so unclear as to create misunderstandings about what he is trying to say or does he just say things which are wrong or incorrect?

From what I can see, his writings are clear, but there are those who dislike them, so they twist and distort and lie and slander to make themselves feel superior.

For example, if someone thinks that the Kingdom and spiritual salvation are synonymous, and Zane (or James Newman, or J. Jump, or HoG, or Lacy) makes a statement about the Kingdom, then, since they have no Scriptural defense, they have to twist it to be, "See, he says that you earn your salvation!"

It's the only tactic they have, and they use it frequently.

 

[webdog]

From what I can see, his writings are clear, but there are those who dislike them, so they twist and distort and lie and slander to make themselves feel superior.

For example, if someone thinks that the Kingdom and spiritual salvation are synonymous, and Zane (or James Newman, or J. Jump, or HoG, or Lacy) makes a statement about the Kingdom, then, since they have no Scriptural defense, they have to twist it to be, "See, he says that you earn your salvation!"

It's the only tactic they have, and they use it frequently.

I have never used that tactic, and please, don't say there is no Scriptural defense. I have seen it presented on here. If anything it is the KE crowd that twists these Scriptures to form two salvations.

 

[Hope of Glory]

What I see happening is this: The teachings of Zane Hodges (Joseph Dillow, Robert Wilkin, & the extreme teachings of J.D.Faust) are held up as accurate and biblical --the Word of God takes second place and the teachings of these guys seem to take precedence. The Word of God is interpreted by the teachings of these men, instead of the reverse. Instead of being biblical Bereans (Acts 17:11), some are taking these teachings as truth without checking them out with Scriptures. The truth is being stretched to the max in order to make these false teachings to fit the Word of God.

Plain Old Bill, this is the sort of slandering and lying that Linda, SFiC, Diggin and such have to resort to. They have nothing else.

I had never heard of Zane Hodges, J. D. Faust, Joseph Dillow, and these other teachers until recently. Yet, I hold to the same doctrinal stance that they do because I see it in the Scriptures, and back up these beliefs with Scripture at great length. (Which is promptly ignored by them because it sheds light that some don't want.)

So, they resort to lieing about me specifically, saying that I follow these men, and we're a cult, and all sorts of other unchristian behavior (I don't recall Christ lieing, slandering, and making false accusations), because that's the only leg they have to stand on.

Now, don't misunderstand me: Not everyone in these debates do this. Tiny Tim, WebDog, and a few others are interested in genuine debate and discussion. It's just a few who have to resort to intentionally lieing and slandering and twisting the words of others.

 

[Linda64]

Now whether or not this is exactly what Hodges believes or not I am not sure as I am not entirely familiar with his writings. However if I was to guess I would say that he does not believe that anyone will be excluded from the kingdom.

Oh really? You seem to be mimicking his teachings quite often! If you have read any of Middletown Bible Church's links I have posted (in this thread and some of the others), I am sure you get the general idea of what Hodges teaches--as well as Joseph Dillow & Robert Wilkin--and the extreme teachings of J. D. Faust. They all teach the same unbiblical heresy of Kingdom Exclusion.

And I say that because the former pastor of the church we are currently attending wrote a book on the judgment seat of Christ and while he held that the warnings belonged to saved individuals and they could suffer loss it would be a much more temporary loss. And Hodges wrote a supportive bit in his book, so I would say Hodges agrees with him.

If that is the case this would be where I disagree with them, because they believe rewards are tied to eternity not the kingdom, so they contradict themselves because they believe in wailing and gnashing of teeth but say it's only temporary while everything else is eternal.

And that gets a bit confusing

The entire teaching is confusing and God is not the Author of confusion. You need to put away all those books and just study the Word of God alone. You are holding the writings of these men above the Word and interpreting the Word in the light of men's teachings instead of being a biblical Berean (Acts 17:11) and checking these men out in the light of the Word of God.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

I like to think of myself as fairly well grounded. I like the Dallas school of thought i.e. Walvoord,Shafer,Evans,Pentecost and others. I have read Calvin,Torrey,Erickson,Derickson, and am reading Grudem at this time. I try to pick the cherries and spit out the pits.

However if someone is unclear in their teaching I just don't like to waste my time trying to muddle my way through unclear writing or teaching.Thankyou for your comments and help fellas.:godisgood:

 

[Linda64]

Plain Old Bill, this is the sort of slandering and lying that Linda, SFiC, Diggin and such have to resort to. They have nothing else.

I had never heard of Zane Hodges, J. D. Faust, Joseph Dillow, and these other teachers until recently. Yet, I hold to the same doctrinal stance that they do because I see it in the Scriptures, and back up these beliefs with Scripture at great length. (Which is promptly ignored by them because it sheds light that some don't want.)

So, they resort to lieing about me specifically, saying that I follow these men, and we're a cult, and all sorts of other unchristian behavior (I don't recall Christ lieing, slandering, and making false accusations), because that's the only leg they have to stand on.

Now, don't misunderstand me: Not everyone in these debates do this. Tiny Tim, WebDog, and a few others are interested in genuine debate and discussion. It's just a few who have to resort to intentionally lieing and slandering and twisting the words of others.

Where is anybody's name mentioned? Why are you getting on the defensive? Are you under conviction?

 

[Hope of Glory]

The part I enlarged shows that unless our righteousness exceeds that of those who are not righteous (scribes/ pharisees), we cannot enter the kingdom. This is an eternal saved / not saved issue. The lost will not inherit the kingdom in the first place. What this text is telling us is simply if we follow a works based life in hopes of being saved, we will be in for a huge surprise!

Luke 1:6: And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Do you think the Scribes and Pharisees walked in the commandments and ordinances of the Lord?

 

[Hope of Glory]

I have never used that tactic, and please, don't say there is no Scriptural defense. I have seen it presented on here. If anything it is the KE crowd that twists these Scriptures to form two salvations.

If you've been paying attention to the course of this debate, I have excluded you from that crowd on multiple occasions. I still think you're wrong, but you are interested in a serious discussion of the subject instead of following in the cult of Middletown Bible Church.

 

[Linda64]

If you've been paying attention to the course of this debate, I have excluded you from that crowd on multiple occasions. I still think you're wrong, but you are interested in a serious discussion of the subject instead of following in the cult of Middletown Bible Church.

Now you are calling Middletown Bible Church a cult? What makes them a cult? Is it because you disagree with what they teach? Take it up with them.

 

[James_Newman]

Linda, it is because you are following their interpretation of the scripture instead of what the scripture says. You have put their writings above the bible. Why not examine them in light of scripture?

 

[J. Jump]

Oh really? You seem to be mimicking his teachings quite often! If you have read any of Middletown Bible Church's links I have posted (in this thread and some of the others), I am sure you get the general idea of what Hodges teaches--as well as Joseph Dillow & Robert Wilkin--and the extreme teachings of J. D. Faust. They all teach the same unbiblical heresy of Kingdom Exclusion.

See I don't understand the purpose behind these statements. I told you I have never read any of his writings. I told you I am not familiar with them, and then you post an Oh really? . . . insinuating that I'm lying.

I have nothing to hide. I don't know the man and have never read anything that he has written. The only reason I aim to guess at what he believes is because of his association with someone that I do know and do knot what his beliefs are and he is not a believer in the word of the kingdom.

I have read several of MBC's commentaries even before you posted them. It seems as though their main hangup with Hodges is that he believes in free grace and denies the Lordship salvation teaching that unforutnately many have fallen vicitim too these days.

As for the others I have no idea because I have never read any of their work either, but the other three (Faust for sure) believe in the word of the kingdom.

But that does not mean that I follow those men, because I have yet to read one of their writings, including Faust.

So it is flat out wrong to say we are following the teachings of men. I have studied the Scripture out for myself and believe that the Holy Spirit has gudied me to The Truth concerning the word of the kingdom.

If you don't believe or don't want to believe it that's okay. You are more than welcome to believe whatever it is you want to believe, but to slander someone just because they don't believe the way you believe is incorrect.

If you want to discuss Scripture that is one thing, but just to bad mouth people is just plain wrong. But in your idea of Scritpure that is okay, because you do not have to give an account for speaking ill of a brother. I'm not sure what it is you think happens to your wrongdoings, but you obviously don't think you are going to be held accountable for them.

The entire teaching is confusing and God is not the Author of confusion.

You are right in that God is not the author of confusion, but just becuase "you" think it is confusing does not prove your point . . . sorry. There are a great number of folks that would have said the EXACT same thing about what Jesus taught and that didn't make them right either.

And the same could be said of your beliefs because you all place so many contradictions on Scripture (even though you deny it) that confusion abounds. So just making a statement about confusion doesn't prove one side or the other.

You need to put away all those books and just study the Word of God alone.

Linda you need to stop pretending to know me, becuase you have no clue. You do not know how I do or do not study Scripture. You do not know what books I have read and what books I have not.

If you want to prove your point deal with Scripture. I could say the same thing about you. I could say Linda you need to quit reading MBC and all those commentaries you read and you need to stop listening to your husband and study the Word of God. But that doesn't prove my point any more than your statement did.

You are holding the writings of these men above the Word and interpreting the Word in the light of men's teachings instead of being a biblical Berean (Acts 17:11) and checking these men out in the light of the Word of God.

Again the same thing could be said about you Linda. Why do you keep pretending to know me? Why do you say that I'm not studying the Word of God like the Bereans. You haven't got a clue about me and my studies!

 

[Linda64]

Linda, it is because you are following their interpretation of the scripture instead of what the scripture says. You have put their writings above the bible. Why not examine them in light of scripture?

I have only recently found Middletown Bible Church on the internet. I put NOBODY'S writings above the Bible. The Bible is my final and only authority. The Holy Spirit is the interpreter--not Middletown Bible Church or anyone else. The reason I like Middletown Bible Church's teachings is because I believe they are biblically sound in their doctrine--but they will NEVER be my final authority. I've checked out the teachings of Zane Hodges, Joseph Dillow, Robert Wilkin, and J. D. Faust on other sites (I don't use just the Middletown Bible Church site) and I find that their teachings do NOT line up with the Bible/God's Word.

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11)

In other words, don't check your mind in at the door and let somebody else do your thinking for you. Commonly called "brainwashing".

 

[Linda64]

Linda you need to stop pretending to know me, becuase you have no clue. You do not know how I do or do not study Scripture. You do not know what books I have read and what books I have not.

I've been reading your website, J. Jump---if you don't want others to read the information about you, then don't post it on your website. I never claimed to "know" you--but I read the information "about" you from your website.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

See I don't understand the purpose behind these statements. I told you I have never read any of his writings. I told you I am not familiar with them, and then you post an Oh really? . . . insinuating that I'm lying.

I have nothing to hide. I don't know the man and have never read anything that he has written. The only reason I aim to guess at what he believes is because of his association with someone that I do know and do knot what his beliefs are and he is not a believer in the word of the kingdom.

I have read several of MBC's commentaries even before you posted them. It seems as though their main hangup with Hodges is that he believes in free grace and denies the Lordship salvation teaching that unforutnately many have fallen vicitim too these days.

As for the others I have no idea because I have never read any of their work either, but the other three (Faust for sure) believe in the word of the kingdom.

But that does not mean that I follow those men, because I have yet to read one of their writings, including Faust.

So it is flat out wrong to say we are following the teachings of men. I have studied the Scripture out for myself and believe that the Holy Spirit has gudied me to The Truth concerning the word of the kingdom.

If you don't believe or don't want to believe it that's okay. You are more than welcome to believe whatever it is you want to believe, but to slander someone just because they don't believe the way you believe is incorrect.

If you want to discuss Scripture that is one thing, but just to bad mouth people is just plain wrong. But in your idea of Scritpure that is okay, because you do not have to give an account for speaking ill of a brother. I'm not sure what it is you think happens to your wrongdoings, but you obviously don't think you are going to be held accountable for them.



You are right in that God is not the author of confusion, but just becuase "you" think it is confusing does not prove your point . . . sorry. There are a great number of folks that would have said the EXACT same thing about what Jesus taught and that didn't make them right either.

And the same could be said of your beliefs because you all place so many contradictions on Scripture (even though you deny it) that confusion abounds. So just making a statement about confusion doesn't prove one side or the other.



Linda you need to stop pretending to know me, becuase you have no clue. You do not know how I do or do not study Scripture. You do not know what books I have read and what books I have not.

If you want to prove your point deal with Scripture. I could say the same thing about you. I could say Linda you need to quit reading MBC and all those commentaries you read and you need to stop listening to your husband and study the Word of God. But that doesn't prove my point any more than your statement did.



Again the same thing could be said about you Linda. Why do you keep pretending to know me? Why do you say that I'm not studying the Word of God like the Bereans. You haven't got a clue about me and my studies!

From what I can see, Linda64, DidW, sfiC and others who have used your first name on the BB are not pretending to know you. You put your name and information about your work on your website, so they do know something about you.

Your posts also tell alot about you here on the BB.

Jesus said 'Wherefore, by their fruits, ye shall know them.'

We can know you, and do know you by your actions and words according to the Word of God.

Your words in text speak volumes. The fact that you believe that Christ is divided, or will be divided at the judgment seat is evident. This is contrary to the clear Word of God... Christ is not divided, as has been pointed out, nor will He ever be.

A house divided against itself will not stand. If Christ turns away His saved, who are like Him once they behold Him, then His Millenial Kingdom will not stand, for He will be divided.

 

[akrahnert]

Plain Old Bill, this is the sort of slandering and lying that Linda, SFiC, Diggin and such have to resort to. They have nothing else.

I had never heard of Zane Hodges, J. D. Faust, Joseph Dillow, and these other teachers until recently. Yet, I hold to the same doctrinal stance that they do because I see it in the Scriptures, and back up these beliefs with Scripture at great length. (Which is promptly ignored by them because it sheds light that some don't want.)

So, they resort to lieing about me specifically, saying that I follow these men, and we're a cult, and all sorts of other unchristian behavior (I don't recall Christ lieing, slandering, and making false accusations), because that's the only leg they have to stand on.

Now, don't misunderstand me: Not everyone in these debates do this. Tiny Tim, WebDog, and a few others are interested in genuine debate and discussion. It's just a few who have to resort to intentionally lieing and slandering and twisting the words of others.

Hope of Glory,

Please try to refrain form calling our Christian brothers and sisters liars and slanderers. I know that this is a topic which cuts at the very heart of peoples beliefs and may cause many a heated reply.

I was hoping that this type of dialogue would not start, but I fear it has.
I may also disagree with Hodges KE teachings, but I am trying to be cordial and fair, in order to, at the very least, listen to what Hodges teaches, including people like J.Jump, James, Lacy and yourself whom support Hodges views.

I also acknowledge, that through all of this discussion, common ground may not be obtainable as to the KE theology. But I hope we can agree to disagree without insult.

Let us all have patience and kindness towards one another.

There are more hideous things on the horzion for Bible believing Christians to be aware of, than to attack one another like this.

God Bless You All!

 

[Lacy Evans]

I've been reading your website, J. Jump---if you don't want others to read the information about you, then don't post it on your website. I never claimed to "know" you--but I read the information "about" you from your website.

I looked at his website and I didn't really find any books that he has read or any of his study habits listed. I think it might benefit you to look at some historic facts about men who have railed on other believers.


RAILING: THE WEAKNESS OF ANTI-ROD MANIFESTED

 

[J. Jump]

I've been reading your website, J. Jump---if you don't want others to read the information about you, then don't post it on your website. I never claimed to "know" you--but I read the information "about" you from your website.

Well then Linda please show me off my website where I have stated that I have studied Zane Hodges, Joseph Dillow, J.D. Faust or Robert Wilkin.

And then please show me off my website what books I have listed that I have been reading. You know the ones you told me that I need to put down.

Please show me anywhere on my website where it shows my studies habits and who I have studied under or anything remotely close to what you have said.

 

[J. Jump]

From what I can see, Linda64, DidW, sfiC and others who have used your first name on the BB are not pretending to know you.

Then I would suggest that you need to re-read what has been posted. Becuase you you start talking about what books someone has read or what someone's study habits are that is going much further than reading into someone's personality by way of their posts on a message board.

You put your name and information about your work on your website, so they do know something about you.

Sure they can know something about me. They can know exactly what I believe becuase it's posted on my site in the statement of faith section. They can know a little about my personal background as it is listed in the about section.

But to claim that they know what I have studied, how I study and to what extent I study is not knowable to them, becuase it is not listed on my website and they have never met me.

They can not know those things. They do not know those things. Just as you don't, nor do I know those things about you or them for that matter.

Your posts also tell alot about you here on the BB.

Not in the way Linda64 is claiming!

Your words in text speak volumes. The fact that you believe that Christ is divided, or will be divided at the judgment seat is evident.

Really please show me where I have stated that Christ Himself will be divided.

A house divided against itself will not stand. If Christ turns away His saved, who are like Him once they behold Him, then His Millenial Kingdom will not stand, for He will be divided.

Actually this is a perfect reason why there will be a separation of saved individuals. You can not have those saved individuals ruling and reigning who are disobedient and doing their own thing. If the disobedient are mixed with the obedient then you will have a house that will not stand.

If a Christian is unfaithful, disobedient, non-overcoming in this life, please show me Scripture that says they will automatically become obedient and faithful just because they have died. I have not seen that Scripture and have yet to see anyone produce it, so I will await your response.

 

[Linda64]

I looked at his website and I didn't really find any books that he has read or any of his study habits listed. I think it might benefit you to look at some historic facts about men who have railed on other believers.


RAILING: THE WEAKNESS OF ANTI-ROD MANIFESTED

Been there---done that. Just because you point me to that site and adhere to the teachings on that site, does not mean that it is biblically sound. The teachings are still false.

BTW--that is the site where I found the link to Middletown Bible Church and George Zeller's response to J. D. Faust--and also all the teachings of Hodges, Dillow, & Wilkin of the Grace Evangelical Society and their "Free Grace" teachings.

In reading the "Statement of Faith" on J. Jump's site, I find a serious contradiction:

4. We believe in an absolute eternal security of all saved people (1 Cor. 3:15). (in the Salvation section of SOF)
8. “The thousand year” exclusion is a temporary loss that will not extend beyond “the thousand year” Kingdom. All disobedient children of God shall be restored after the Kingdom in the eternal ages (Rev. 20:5; 1Cor.3:15). (in Things To Come section of SOF)

http://www.1-heart.org/statement_of_faith.htm

Emphasis mine

How can one have "eternal security" in 1 Cor. 3:15 and at the same time suffer "temporary loss" using the same verse? What kind of "eternal security" is that?

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)


That "suffer loss" is the burning of the believer's "hay, wood, and stubble" not the believer himself. The Roman Catholic Church uses that verse for their false teaching of Purgatory--and it seems that is what the KE teachers use for dividing the Body of Christ.

 

[James_Newman]

What is Eternity minus a thousand years?