Ted Haggard - should he ever be allowed to pastor again?

[LeBuick]

For myself, we have removed people from membership in our church for far less when the sin is continuing, ongoing and without repentence. We try to follow the steps Paul talked about concerning the the man in 1 Corinthians who, by the way, also committed a sin that in the OT was punishable by death.

The leadership spoke to him on numerous occasions, set up discipleship with him, finally ended up having it where he HAD to have a pastor or deacon with him at all times, yet the behavior didn't stop. He was removed from fellowship and told that we will now call the police if he comes back into the building.

I knew we were not that far apart Bro Bob, now I see you're not saying the person is without hope, they just need some time to get right with God and work through some issues. Like the idleness scripture, you don't want the cancer loose in the congregation trying to find more victims to devour.

These two points are what I was struggling to say, it is one thing to commit a sin and another to continue in sin. Unless they pull him in close and stick to his side like his pockets it will be hard to know which side of the fence he landed after this fall. Yes, there is a point where the Church needs to withdraw for the protection and betterment of the body.

Now in your view, you can put him out and see how badly he wnts bck in the fellowship. Does he accept this dismissal and just stray or does he accept his dismissal but to continue to work and show desire to be restored. Is this close to where you are?

By the way, I was glad to see you say you would be the first to welcome him back because we all know if the clergy (Pastor) doesn't welcome him back then he might as well stay gone. Either way every memeber will have three eyes on his every move.

 

[webdog]

Strange to me everyone preaches and believes in order to be saved you must quit such things as adultery, homo, stealing etc then after you are in the church, apparently you didn't mean it.

The Bible teaches we need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and we will be saved. If quitting the practices you mention were necessary for salvation, that would be a works based salvation. True repentance...turning from a life of sin...can only happen AFTER one is born again. Sanctification is the process of removing the above sin, not justification.

 

[webdog]

I knew we were not that far apart Bro Bob, now I see you're not saying the person is without hope, they just need some time to get right with God and work through some issues. Like the idleness scripture, you don't want the cancer loose in the congregation trying to find more victims to devour.

I believe he is saying a true Christian cannot commit certian sin.

 

[El_Guero]

Ted Haggard - should he ever be allowed to pastor again?

Not any time soon. If he has been living with this most of his lifetime (all of his ministry?), then he should take about a year per year . . . Maybe at least 6 months per year . . .

 

[LeBuick]

I believe he is saying a true Christian cannot commit certian sin.

I know, <scratches head> I was just trying to find a place for us to meet and agree. It's hard for me to fathom where a christian can commit these sin's but not those??? I could see it if we were all the same and saved from the same problems but because we were each saved from a unique set of temptations it's hard to say my temptations are acceptable but yours are not... </scratches head>

 

[Brother Bob]

The Bible teaches we need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and we will be saved. If quitting the practices you mention were necessary for salvation, that would be a works based salvation. True repentance...turning from a life of sin...can only happen AFTER one is born again. Sanctification is the process of removing the above sin, not justification.__________________

Are you telling me Webdog that if a practicing homosexual came to you for membership and if you were pastor you would take him? Or, if a practicing adultereous, practicing murderer came to you for member ship you would accept them?
Not me. Now if they had repented and quit those things as the Bible says, "clean your hands ye sinners" and said God had forgive them then I would receive them. If we receive into our fellowship practicing homosexuals we are no better than the world itself.
I am saying that a Christian cannot commit homosexuality for we are kept by the power of God. I believe God saves you from your sins, not so you can commit them.

 

[Brother Bob]

Corinthians, chapter 5
1: It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2: And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3: For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4: In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5: To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6: Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7: Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9: I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12: For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13: But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Some use this scripture for justification but tell me please how do you deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the Spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus? We don't kill people but we can withdraw from them.

 

[El_Guero]

Brother Pastor,

I agree in principle . . . but, in application - I cannot understand 'how' someone could commit certain sins.

"Except by the grace of God, go I" is always true. But, one has to think that with the grace of God, there are certain places we cannot go. IMHO.

Wayne

I know, <scratches head> I was just trying to find a place for us to meet and agree. It's hard for me to fathom where a christian can commit these sin's but not those??? I could see it if we were all the same and saved from the same problems but because we were each saved from a unique set of temptations it's hard to say my temptations are acceptable but yours are not... </scratches head>

 

[Brother Bob]

God Bless you El_Guero:
The Lord will bless you for sure and I believe that with all my being.

I believe our God is a Strong God that is able to keep His people. "My Grace is sufficient to keep thee". Well if we can commit Sodomy the I guess there are some things His Grace is not strong enough. Amen and I love the Lord.

Jhn 19:11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Tit: 1
15: Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

[LeBuick]

Brother Pastor,

I agree in principle . . . but, in application - I cannot understand 'how' someone could commit certain sins.

"Except by the grace of God, go I" is always true. But, one has to think that with the grace of God, there are certain places we cannot go. IMHO.

Wayne

Maybe I'm the one missing the boat. You and Bro Bob are saying there are certian things a saved man can't do? Sodomy being one of them.

Let's say a man is gay. He comes down the isle wanting to be saved.

Are you saying he must heal himself of this evil sickness before he can be saved?

Are you saying at the moment of salvation he is cured of this sickness?

At the moment he is cured is the temptation and thought are also removed?

I believe the perfecting process happens over time and not at the point of salvation. I see this is where we disagree but I'm confused how we can disagree? Now if I'm right, a saved person will still commit sin until such time as the Lord has perfected him beyond that sickness.

Bro Bob, I too agree there is a time when the Church must remove itself from a member. I guess I differ with this particular situation. I know sodomy and drug abuse is serious and bad but I also believe God is faithful to forgive if he repents.

I also agree with 1 Cor 5 that Paul is saying this mans sin has exceeded the threshold so he must be sent to himself and his father satan. Perhaps I need to search my heart to see if I've been to lenient when it comes to allowing open sinners to stay in fellowship with the saints. I know it only takes a little leaven to ruin the lump.

 

[webdog]

Are you telling me Webdog that if a practicing homosexual came to you for membership and if you were pastor you would take him?

Absolutely not.

Or, if a practicing adultereous, practicing murderer came to you for member ship you would accept them?

Again, no, but neither case means they were not saved while commiting those sins. That is the point of disagreement between us. You say a truly saved individual cannot commit some sin, I say a saved individual is still a sinner and can commit any sin if they walk by the flesh and not the Spirit. God's own chosen people worshipped false gods while Moses was on the mountain.

 

[Brother Bob]

(God's chosen people were not indwelt with the Holy Ghost. We can go back to the OT and follow that and do almost anything.)

If Repentance is not before Salvation then I been wrong all these years and seems as if these Apostles and deciples were wrong also.

The first Baptist peacher ever the first thing he preached was "Repent". Also, bring ye "Fruits meet for repentance" in other words, fruits showing you have repented. Repentance to me is to become sorry to God that you sinned against Him from the "heart".

You take people in the church hoping they will quit sodomy?

Web;
You say that you would not receive them. I take it that that is a requirement then not do such things in order to become a member of the church. I am wondering why that is no longer a requirement after they do become a member. If you think they might be saved even though they are practicing homosexuals then why would you refuse membership in church? Seems to me if they were practicing homosexuals they would fit those who John the Baptist turned away and told them to bring "fruits" meet for repentance? I don't understand that at all.

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

3: Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


8: Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

32: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

47: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48: And ye are witnesses of these things.

10: For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.


17: For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

 

[Brother Bob]

Thank God I am not alone in this battle of Satan trying to take over God's church!!

This sermon has been submitted by the following broadcaster:
Maumee Valley Bible Baptist Church

Brief Sermon Overview:
Another great 'American Faith Leader'?

The second Colorado Springs pastor defrocked for sodomy in just 2 weeks?

The 'leader of 30 million evangelicals' is a methamphetamine addict????

What is going on?

Add unsaved and uncalled pastors to megachurches that are unbiblical founts of corrupt doctrine and worldly entertainment and you will get just that.

Ted Haggard is more than a sign of the cancer that infects the religious culture in America. He is more than a normal pastor. He was an evangelical superstar. With direct access to President George Bush and his counselor Karl Rove.

He was an ally/supporter/member of the Kansas City School of Prophets and Prayer that is infecting American churches by teaching that men and women today can become Apostles and prophets.

Amazingly in his resignation letter, after being discovered as a sodomite drug user, this self appointed prophet made another prophecy in writing, this time about the timing of his outing.

Shameless. Brazen. Full of Lies. And devoid of orthodox doctrine.

That is where the leaders of the American Church have taken us in the precious name of Jesus Christ.

Well, God has known what man's tendancies are. He knows all about false shepherds. And not surprisingly His Word details a few of His thoughts about such predatory pastors.

 

[webdog]

(God's chosen people were not indwelt with the Holy Ghost. We can go back to the OT and follow that and do almost anything.)

Not necessarily, as they are there for a reason (2 Tim. 3:16). We see Lot living amongst sodomites, in sin...declared righteous. I have always wondered about Lot's sexuality because of where he lived. The NT does not state once we are indwelt, there are certain sin we can commit, and others He will keep us from commiting. Isn't He not powerful enough to keep us from commiting any sin? Then why do we?

John the Baptist preached a turning away from thier lives and the path they were on (salvation by works) and turn to Christ instead. This does not mean that true repentance from our sin can happen apart from being born again.

I take it that that is a requirement then not do such things in order to become a member of the church. I am wondering why that is no longer a requirement after they do become a member.

If vowing to never commit a sin were requirement for any church, all churches across America would be empty. Once one is justified, they remain part of the true Church, regardless what actions leadership of the local Church decides on. No sin can separate us from Christ. I know some believe this, but usually not the OSAS crowd.

 

[webdog]

What is going on?

Add unsaved and uncalled pastors to megachurches that are unbiblical founts of corrupt doctrine and worldly entertainment and you will get just that.

This should say enough. I somehow doubt God gave this broadcaster a special revelation of Ted Haggard's justification.

 

[Brother Bob]

Web: If vowing to never commit a sin were requirement for any church, all churches across America would be empty. Once one is justified, they remain part of the true Church, regardless what actions leadership of the local Church decides on. No sin can separate us from Christ. I know some believe this, but usually not the OSAS crowd.

Bob; Are you telling me Webdog that if a practicing homosexual came to you for membership and if you were pastor you would take him?

Web; Absolutely not.

Apparently you believe it can separate you from the church though.

Web; If vowing to never commit a sin were requirement for any church, all churches across America would be empty.

Bob; I think we are vowing to never commit such sin as sodomy, we may be telling false but when I receive a member I don't ask him that question but do ask him or her if they are willing to abide by our rules and orders.

I believe you must "repent" before Salvation period.

From the other day forward everytime we see some preacher leading the Government in prayer it will run through our minds is this a homo too. I just saw one a few minutes ago and that was the first thing I thought of. People like Haggard are helping Satan destroy the church and they are succeeding. We are becoming the laughing stock of the country and world because of men like that.

John the Baptist preached a turning away from thier lives and the path they were on (salvation by works) and turn to Christ instead. This does not mean that true repentance from our sin can happen apart from being born again.

There were some that had the "fruits".

I am amazed you wondered about Lot!

And there is a difference between following the Lord with the Holy Ghost indwelt than following the Lord without the Holy Ghost being on the inside of you.

If you are saying this should say enough on this subject then ok.

 

[LeBuick]

(God's chosen people were not indwelt with the Holy Ghost. We can go back to the OT and follow that and do almost anything.)

If Repentance is not before Salvation then I been wrong all these years and seems as if these Apostles and deciples were wrong also.

The first Baptist peacher ever the first thing he preached was "Repent". Also, bring ye "Fruits meet for repentance" in other words, fruits showing you have repented. Repentance to me is to become sorry to God that you sinned against Him from the "heart".

You take people in the church hoping they will quit sodomy?

So are you saying rementace will also perfect or that repentace is the first step of the perfecting process?

I lean toward repentance being the first step when one comes to christ admitting they are a sinner, a sinner unable to be righteous on his own. You are agreeing to surrendor your will and life into the hands of the master and are willing to take up your cross and follow after him. However, I see the repentant sinner as being a lump of raw clay on the potters wheel. The potter then begins to take, shape and mold the clay. The potter will find mirr's, blemishes and other defects but his faithfulness will not allow him to discard the clay, he will include those defects into the new design.

 

[LeBuick]

The first Baptist peacher ever the first thing he preached was "Repent". Also, bring ye "Fruits meet for repentance" in other words, fruits showing you have repented. Repentance to me is to become sorry to God that you sinned against Him from the "heart".

You take people in the church hoping they will quit sodomy?

I'm struggling with this one, how does one come showing he has repented?

I've never had a man come down the isle and state he was gay but wanted to join the Church. Being in a inner city Church, I do take in many who I believe are on drugs, I can smell the licquor etc... Usually homeless but that has no bearing on this. I put my arms around them and we offer them the right hand of fellowship once they have been Baptized.

I take them in because in my interpritation, they are coming willing to surrender their life to Jesus, take up their cross and follow him. I take them as they are except repentant which I believe means willing to accept the changes Christ will perform in their lives. If they have different agenda or not is between them and God.

I admit, many of them don't last but a few days or weeks, others I see sporatically (usually when a meal will be served) but I have several that I believe are really walking the walk. One asked me for a referral to rehab which I gladly provided including the ride to the place.

It's difficult for a homeless man to pray to a God that promises shelter from lifes storms, so I teach them to be appreciative, greatful and faithful to what you do have (faithful over a few things) and God will be faithful to provide the increase (ruler over many). Trust me, when a man is greatful for a cardboard box and a low traffic public piece of dirt to lay in the cold you have a man who is willing to surrender to just about anything. This is where my work begins.

Because repenting is the emptying or purging process, these guys are now ready to be filled with the first thing that promises heat and a hot meal. There are many of those offerings out there. I offer them neither, I give them Christ, his word and all the spare time I have.

I am probably wrong for the way I think as I nearly lost my Church a few years back when a few years ago I opened up the fellowship hall to some homeless when the temp dropped below -20 degrees. The local shelters had all filled over capacity and so my daughter and I went to the Church, and with no advertisement or telling a single soul what I was doing, people began coming. I even had some members show up who made soup and coffee and brought blankets and old clothe.

I took a lot of heat for a gesture I made from my heart and I never once defended my actions. I also never promised not to do it again if the situation arose.

This is why I'm struggling with how does one come showing he has repented?

Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[TaterTot]

If we leave them "out there", what chance do they have? If they dont repent from the "heart" then thats their business. Its ours to show them how.

 

[Brother Bob]

I'm struggling with this one, how does one come showing he has repented?

I've never had a man come down the isle and state he was gay but wanted to join the Church. Being in a inner city Church, I do take in many who I believe are on drugs, I can smell the licquor etc... Usually homeless but that has no bearing on this. I put my arms around them and we offer them the right hand of fellowship once they have been Baptized.

We don't do that.

If we leave them "out there", what chance do they have?

Same chance you and I had.

I ask any of you, were you still in adultery, drunk, stealing, homosexuality, sodomy, murdering when you gave your hand to the church?
Or, had you become sorrow for all the things you had done wrong and wanted Christ in your life and said "Lord if its you will that I die then let it be but save my dying soul"?

A person under the influence of acohol is not talking from the heart but from the acohol. There is no way I would baptize a drunk.

You think you become saved and then repent and then apparently according to Haggard don't stop anything.