Tell the Truth by Will Metzger discussion

[evangelist6589]

I am not sure what the world thinks of Osteen. I think many believe him representative of Christianity, and probably many do not. The danger of Osteen, however, is that he is a false teacher. He presents the type of message that Conway condemns…and I’d say Metzger condemns also as it is void of the gospel (actually it is contrary to the gospel).

Here are my questions:

From a strict Reformed view point, and using Metzger’s theology, what would be the danger of Osteen’s message to evangelism?

He does not preach the gospel nor preach on sin, and hell. The cross of Christ means nothing to him, and his message is just a New Age false gospel.

What I mean is this, if one is in the “conversion process” as Metzger describes in Ch. 4 then that person is wrestling with the gospel message (although not quite at the end of the conversion process). He or she has a gospel knowledge and the Spirit is working in his or her life. If elect, then salvation will occur. If not, then it won’t. Why even worry about false teachers? If they are saved, then false teachers cannot lead them astray, so there is no danger there either. False teachers are therefore no issue to the evangelist…although perhaps an issue to the pastor in terms of edification and discipleship. If salvation is not dependent on the man being saved, surely it is not dependent on the false teacher conquering God’s own election of another.

Oh yes they can!!! No they can't touch their salvation but they can confuse the elect, they can hinder the elect from good bible study, from completing their mission, and so on, which will end in a loss of rewards in the kingdom. 10 years ago I used to be a Osteen addict. Osteen with his smile had deceived me, and I would video record his messages in my VHS player (the VHS was more common in 2004) and play them over and over again. My salvation was not lost (don't hold that doctrine anyways) but I was confused and my mission at being a Biblical evangelist was lost. God led me to buy a number of John MacArthur books which I read with great hunger (as I was starving) and after my feast and the work of the Holy Spirit Osteen went into the trash, and my associations with the Charismatic movement did as well. I was a charismatic 10 years ago and grew up in a weslyian church. But it was MacArthur that led me to a deeper knowledge and study of the Holy Bible and to passages that the Charismatics had missed (most of their sermons were fluff anyways). But MacArthur would DIVE INTO the Holy Bible and I loved that about him.

Charismatics would then refer to me as "unloving" for questing their doctrine and messages. I would get called a Pharisee for holding to the scripture and so on. Those lost people (probably false converts) had questionable views and often held to New Revelation (a heresy).

***** This, BTW, is not something that I believe and I trust is not something that you believe either. I am curious as to how you would answer the question. Can false teachers lead people astray, and if so what relationship does this have to the sovereign election of God?

Answered above

 

[JonC]

I finished the book. It is good, but really not much different from many others. I think he was focused more on how evangelism "fits in" with Reformed theology much of the time. But it was a good book and I am glad you "talked" me into getting it. As far as evangelism goes, and even his outlook at sharing the gospel, I still do not view it as "Reformed." His understanding of salvation is, but not his evangelism.

 

[Yeshua1]

I finished the book. It is good, but really not much different from many others. I think he was focused more on how evangelism "fits in" with Reformed theology much of the time. But it was a good book and I am glad you "talked" me into getting it. As far as evangelism goes, and even his outlook at sharing the gospel, I still do not view it as "Reformed." His understanding of salvation is, but not his evangelism.

What is "Reformed" evangelism model though?

 

[JonC]

What is "Reformed" evangelism model though?

Ahhh...that's why I bought the book. Turns out there is no "Reformed" model. It's regular biblical evangelism. What is Reformed is the understanding of how God works towards salvation...everything else is biblical evangelism.

But it is a good book. I think I like "The Fifth Gospel" better in terms of evangelism...but perhaps "The Art of Personal Evangelism" trumps both (IMHO). What I don't like is all of the stories. I don't know if you've noticed, but books on evangelism are full of stories.

 

[evangelist6589]

I finished the book. It is good, but really not much different from many others. I think he was focused more on how evangelism "fits in" with Reformed theology much of the time. But it was a good book and I am glad you "talked" me into getting it. As far as evangelism goes, and even his outlook at sharing the gospel, I still do not view it as "Reformed." His understanding of salvation is, but not his evangelism.

Why do you keep on dodging trying to read the book slowly and meditate on the words? Man I am reading the book very slowly and am focusing on the content of what he is teaching. In a seminary environment they would read the book in a semester and focus on the content of the book more. But you keep on avoiding to do this and I wonder why.

 

[evangelist6589]

What is "Reformed" evangelism model though?

Did you buy the book?

 

[evangelist6589]

I finished the book. It is good, but really not much different from many others. I think he was focused more on how evangelism "fits in" with Reformed theology much of the time. But it was a good book and I am glad you "talked" me into getting it. As far as evangelism goes, and even his outlook at sharing the gospel, I still do not view it as "Reformed." His understanding of salvation is, but not his evangelism.

Of coarse not. Arminian and Reformed both use gospel tracts and do open air preaching.

 

[JonC]

Why do you keep on dodging trying to read the book slowly and meditate on the words? Man I am reading the book very slowly and am focusing on the content of what he is teaching. In a seminary environment they would read the book in a semester and focus on the content of the book more. But you keep on avoiding to do this and I wonder why.

John…this book is 207 pages not counting the Appendix. It is not written at a difficult level by any means, and much of the chapters contain stories of his experiences with different people. I have had this since the 23rd. I have read it more than once. And please stop telling me what people would do in a seminary environment. I am not in seminary, I am at my home and can adequately concentrate on a 207 page book and easily read it slowly with understanding in a matter of days (given it is written at a popular level...it has taken me a week to digest one short chapter of some books).

Of coarse not. Arminian and Reformed both use gospel tracts and do open air preaching.

Yes… I know. It has nothing to do with the book...as Metzger seems to question the communication value of both at times (his preference seems to be more conversational)...but I know that both use these methods. Evangelistic churches who are neither Arminian or Calvinistic also use these methods.

 

[evangelist6589]

John…this book is 207 pages not counting the Appendix. It is not written at a difficult level by any means, and much of the chapters contain stories of his experiences with different people. I have had this since the 23rd.







Yes… I know. It has nothing to do with the book...as Metzger seems to question the communication value of both at times (his preference seems to be more conversational)...but I know that both use these methods. Evangelistic churches who are neither Arminian or Calvinistic also use these methods.

You need to read the book slowly and it can get deep for an evangelism book and I have read many of them. You are cynical of the book because you do not like it but look at amazon reviews and plenty disagree with you, and many Reformed seminaries use it. Also Reisinger spoke very highly of it as well as Paul Washer.

Look you can pick a non Calvinist book on evangelism and I will read it slowly with you. I want to be completely fair to that side as well and not skim over it because I am cynical of it.

Looking at amazon reviews I see a pastor whom had read 20 books on evangelism says this one is by far the best!!

 

[evangelist6589]

John…this book is 207 pages not counting the Appendix. It is not written at a difficult level by any means, and much of the chapters contain stories of his experiences with different people. I have had this since the 23rd. I have read it more than once. And please stop telling me what people would do in a seminary environment. I am not in seminary, I am at my home and can adequately concentrate on a 207 page book and easily read it slowly with understanding in a matter of days.



Yes… I know. It has nothing to do with the book...as Metzger seems to question the communication value of both at times (his preference seems to be more conversational)...but I know that both use these methods. Evangelistic churches who are neither Arminian or Calvinistic also use these methods.

At the Calvinist men's study we are reading through the book called The Exemplary husband very slowly... That book I would say to be a lighter read. You get what you put in.

Or perhaps you are not reading many books at the same time as I am.

 

[JonC]

You need to read the book slowly and it can get deep for an evangelism book and I have read many of them. You are cynical of the book because you do not like it but look at amazon reviews and plenty disagree with you, and many Reformed seminaries use it. Also Reisinger spoke very highly of it as well as Paul Washer.

Look you can pick a non Calvinist book on evangelism and I will read it slowly with you. I want to be completely fair to that side as well and not skim over it because I am cynical of it.

John....stop and read my previous comments SLOWLY. Please point out where I said I did not like the book. I don't care about amazon reviews - The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins got good reviews. I never said it was not a good book. I LIKED THE BOOK JOHN. It just is not my favorite book in terms of evangelism.

Put it this way, it took you less than 3 hours to read the 13 page article by Aune. The article was a more difficult read…yet in those short hours (if you didn’t do anything but read the article…which obviously is not the case since you were posting during that time) you read and considered what the author said and dismissed it as “hogwash.” If I devoted only a few hours to “Tell the Truth” each day I could have read it easily read it with the same focus you gave the article in even less time than I did. It was easier for me as I was stuck in waiting rooms for a few days.

Now if you want to legitimately discuss the book...lets have at it.

 

[Don]

Are you going to buy the book as well?

Are my comments incorrect or untruthful, or otherwise contradict scripture?

 

[evangelist6589]

Are my comments incorrect or untruthful, or otherwise contradict scripture?

Who invited you here? This thread is for people whom have the book or whom have questions about the book, not for antagonizers whom do not have the book, nor have a desire to buy the book.

The Jack Rabbit is waiting for you to chase him Don!

 

[Rippon]

Who invited you here? This thread is for people whom have the book or whom have questions about the book, not for antagonizers whom do not have the book, nor have a desire to buy the book.

Who John, who is a better choice. You have to be weaned off of whom.

 

[Don]

Who invited you here? This thread is for people whom have the book or whom have questions about the book, not for antagonizers whom do not have the book, nor have a desire to buy the book.

The Jack Rabbit is waiting for you to chase him Don!

You spent more effort being un-Christ-like toward me, than you would have by simply answering the question.

Not my intention to antagonize. I made observations about your comments/interpretation regarding the book. If those observations are invalid, it's your responsibility to show why. THAT'S called "scholarly" discussion.

 

[evangelist6589]

You spent more effort being un-Christ-like toward me, than you would have by simply answering the question.

Not my intention to antagonize. I made observations about your comments/interpretation regarding the book. If those observations are invalid, it's your responsibility to show why. THAT'S called "scholarly" discussion.

Well if what you said in Post #31 then I would agree with you. Yes there are those that preach on the streets but live bad lives. For example there are those that do not want to work, but only want to preach. This is called laziness as God has not called everyone to work in the ministry FT.

 

[evangelist6589]

John....stop and read my previous comments SLOWLY. Please point out where I said I did not like the book. I don't care about amazon reviews - The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins got good reviews. I never said it was not a good book. I LIKED THE BOOK JOHN. It just is not my favorite book in terms of evangelism.

Put it this way, it took you less than 3 hours to read the 13 page article by Aune. The article was a more difficult read…yet in those short hours (if you didn’t do anything but read the article…which obviously is not the case since you were posting during that time) you read and considered what the author said and dismissed it as “hogwash.” If I devoted only a few hours to “Tell the Truth” each day I could have read it easily read it with the same focus you gave the article in even less time than I did. It was easier for me as I was stuck in waiting rooms for a few days.

Now if you want to legitimately discuss the book...lets have at it.

I see. Well that article I did not read slowly since I did not agree with it, nor the POV of the partial preterist/amill author, but that is for another thread. Yes lets discuss the book. I am on page 96 and plan to get more reading done today. However I am also reading at least 3 other books at this time, but 2 more will be added this week when the 5th gospel arrives, and the church starts their study of Mark and we are using Warren Wiersbe. However he is a very very easy to read author. His commentaries are simple at best probably geared best for Sunday School and undergraduate students. Undergrad would only read him as a combination of multiple commentaries as I did at that level in NT Biblical studies type classes. For example read a commentary by John Stott and then one by Wiersbe. Well another thread

I am curious as to your opinions on pages 93-94. This is good reading.

 

[JonC]

I am curious as to your opinions on pages 93-94. This is good reading.

I agree with his comments. I remember this being a topic of evangelism in the late 80’s. Dr. Kennedy asserted that a large percent of Christians are not born again. Here is another observation from a different book I’m reading:

“[The cause of the gospel is not helped] by the explosion of young bloggers with just enough knowledge of history to be dangerous and almost no understanding of Scripture or how to interpret it. Their mantra: “If we’re just nice to people, they’ll see our perspective. Don’t judge anyone’s beliefs. And whatever you do, don’t offend anybody!” Their apparent goal is for all humanity to coexist as one, singing in three-part harmony some sort of postmillennial world peace anthem. They believe if we simply say we’re sorry, tone down our language, and redefine some key biblical truths to accommodate our culture’s tolerance-based morality, that’ll do it.” (Conway)

Yes…the whole gospel needs to be preached. But I do not think that it will prevent weeds from growing among the wheat. Christ says that some will come saying “Lord, Lord, did we not…”. They emphatically acknowledge His as Lord (κύριος, κύριος), and they have done work in the ministry…it appears reasonable that they have been used by God in the ministry. But Christ is not the Lord of their lives. Evangelism cannot fix this…wheat and tares will exist together in the Church. But preaching the full gospel may help prevent misunderstandings, some false converts, and is obedience to Christ. Anything less is disobedience and "another gospel" than the "repent and believe" of Scripture.

 

[evangelist6589]

I agree with his comments. I remember this being a topic of evangelism in the late 80’s. Dr. Kennedy asserted that a large percent of Christians are not born again. Here is another observation from a different book I’m reading:



“[The cause of the gospel is not helped] by the explosion of young bloggers with just enough knowledge of history to be dangerous and almost no understanding of Scripture or how to interpret it. Their mantra: “If we’re just nice to people, they’ll see our perspective. Don’t judge anyone’s beliefs. And whatever you do, don’t offend anybody!” Their apparent goal is for all humanity to coexist as one, singing in three-part harmony some sort of postmillennial world peace anthem. They believe if we simply say we’re sorry, tone down our language, and redefine some key biblical truths to accommodate our culture’s tolerance-based morality, that’ll do it.” (Conway)



Yes…the whole gospel needs to be preached. But I do not think that it will prevent weeds from growing among the wheat. Christ says that some will come saying “Lord, Lord, did we not…”. They emphatically acknowledge His as Lord (κύριος, κύριος), and they have done work in the ministry…it appears reasonable that they have been used by God in the ministry. But Christ is not the Lord of their lives. Evangelism cannot fix this…wheat and tares will exist together in the Church. But preaching the full gospel may help prevent misunderstandings, some false converts, and is obedience to Christ. Anything less is disobedience and "another gospel" than the "repent and believe" of Scripture.

Good observations.. I will be reading Conway soon. Had a busy day as it's my birthday (37). But when I get home plan to do some reading until I retire.

 

[JonC]

Good observations.. I will be reading Conway soon. Had a busy day as it's my birthday (37). But when I get home plan to do some reading until I retire.

Happy Birthday! Did you get that theology book you wanted (Wayne Grudem, if I remember correctly)?