Originally Posted by Herb Evans
I guess you have lost your taste for point/counterpoint discussion and are trying a selective pick and choose method, leaving so many of my points unanswered. I will not allow this type of selective debate. This one time I will answer the above.
No, I have lost the taste for trying to pick your points out of the long list of points that you previously pointed out. If you would use the quote function, this would be a lot easier to read. But I'll try to do better. Maybe you could start highlighting the important parts in bold flashing pink text or put one of these next to them.
Like that? -- Herb Evans
Quote:
Quote:
Now, you are reducing this debate to philisophical discussion and reasoning. James said that the devils believe and tremble. Do they have a true, saving faith? The thief on the cross was saved with the single work of his testimony. He was promised paradise. --Herb Evans
Heaven forbid I should reason in a debate. I promise I will get back to name calling shortly. But what of these devils? They believe there is one God and tremble. What has that got to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ? But it does illustrate a point.
Yes, it illustrates what James is talking about, and James links it to it. -- Herb Evans
The thief on the cross was not saved by his work, he was saved by faith same as anybody.
Ah! My point exactly. he had no works to speak of but was saved by faith alone. I'm glad that we agree here. -- Herb Evans
What did the thief on the cross believe to be saved? Did he suddenly have an epiphany and realize that there was only one God?? Devils can't believe the gospel and be saved because the gospel is not for devils!
Great point! It matters what one believes! This thief evidently believed correctly to go to paradise. Evidently, those in James did not believe the right thing wither. -- Herb Evans
Quote:
When a true believer gives testimony that Christ is his Saviour, it is a single work. How many works do you think that a believer should have to be a true believer? Faith alone saves, but that same grace that saves him through faith also teaches that believer how to live as I referenced previously.
That thief on the cross could have been saved even if he had never opened his mouth. But he may not have gone to paradise.
Good! That is what I believe. But you believe that his faith without works gets him in trouble per James. -- Herb Evans
John 12:42-43
42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
Why didn't that grace teach these men to confess Him?
It did, but they did not obey. Does that make their faith void per James? Or do they miss the kingdom and go to hell fire? -- Herb Evans
Quote:
Quote:
However, the dead CLAIMED FAITH of a false professor, as in James,does not save alone or even with an abundance of works.
That's strange, because apparently the works is the only difference between the two. How would a 'believer' know that he had true saving faith if even his works are not evidence??? But I understand why you have to have a 'false professor' to pin all these warnings on.
Well, I knew it when I was first saved. The Bible tells us that a person that believes has the witness in himself. Did that not happen to you? That is the difference -- the Holy Spirit. -- Herb Evans
Quote:
Nevertheless, a true believer has no outward works when he is first saved, so yes, a true believer can be saved by faith alone and without works. How were you saved? By faith alone or by faith plus your works. But for your benefit, believing is a work. -- Herb Evans Quote:
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. -- John 6:29
Even if that verse does mean that in some sense believing was a work, it is not a work in the sense of working for salvation. Rather I believe Jesus was pointing out the need for faith in pleasing God. One cannot work the works of God without first believing. We must compare this verse with Romans 4:5.
OH? It is the only work that gets you salvation. Anything else FOR salvation subtracts from it. -- Hreb Evans
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
So in whatever sense believing is a 'work', it is not a work in the sense of Romans 4.
That is a passage that you have to deal with not I. The believing is the only work that gets counted as righteousness. The working for salvation in Romans 4:5 goes against salvation, like Faustite go against your kingdom plan of salvation, because it is not of works either lest any man should boast. --Herb Evans
Quote:
The best part of this is that you fellows switch from eternal salvation to Kingdom salvation and back again. So, answer this, does faith alone procure eternal salvation or not? -- Herb Evans
Absolutely.
Well, at least we agree on one point.
Dead cold mental assent will get your name listed in the book of life on the last day.
It is the false doctrine baggage that you tie on to it that is the problem. Cold mental assent will put you in the Lake of fire. -- Herb Evans