Temporary Salvationist 1-8

[Lacy Evans]

No problem Brother Herb Evans.
However, I will probably let PROFESSIONAL triflers to so
misrepresent you

I am at best, an amateur trifler.

Yes, I've been to Pensocola.
(ed takes a 6-minute gigglin' for Jesus break)
I've also been to Toronto.

Well I've never been to Heaven.
But I've been to Oklahoma.
Well they tell me I was born there.
But I really don't remember.
In Oklahoma.
Not Arizona.
What does it matter?
What does it matter?

 

[James_Newman]

I am at best, an amateur trifler.

I have always considered my profession to be trifling.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Lacy Evans: //Well I've never been to Heaven.
But I've been to Oklahoma.//

Heaven is a local call from most any place in
Oklahoma -- well at least central Oklahoma

James_Newman: //I have always considered my profession to be trifling.//

Trifling is my advocation;not my vocation.
But I'm retired. Maybe I can take up trifling full-time?

 

[Mike Berzins]

Herb,

I see that you have decided to not respond to James any more. I am brand new to this forum so I hope you will consider responding to this. I have a couple of questions about this thread.

The believer himself at the JSOC will not be judged. Only his works will be judged. The believer at the JSOC can not be judged there for his sins, because Christ paid for his sins. The Christian can be chastened for sin in this life, even though Christ paid for his sins, because it is only his flesh and blood, old man that is being chastened, and Christ did not die for the old flesh and blood man. At the JSOC, only the Christian’s new man is present, and therefore he can not be judged, chastened, or punished, because the new man is not subject to any judgment, chastening, or punishment. The new man will not answer for sin, and can not sin. But the new man will receive the rewards according to his works at the judgment seat.

Does the above paragraph accurately represent your views?

My other question will sound off topic, but rest assured that it is not ( I will show this later). Do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ at any time, was afflicted or suffered in hell?

 

[Herb Evans]

Herb,

I see that you have decided to not respond to James any more. I am brand new to this forum so I hope you will consider responding to this. I have a couple of questions about this thread.

The believer himself at the JSOC will not be judged. Only his works will be judged. The believer at the JSOC can not be judged there for his sins, because Christ paid for his sins. The Christian can be chastened for sin in this life, even though Christ paid for his sins, because it is only his flesh and blood, old man that is being chastened, and Christ did not die for the old flesh and blood man. At the JSOC, only the Christian’s new man is present, and therefore he can not be judged, chastened, or punished, because the new man is not subject to any judgment, chastening, or punishment. The new man will not answer for sin, and can not sin. But the new man will receive the rewards according to his works at the judgment seat.

Does the above paragraph accurately represent your views?

My other question will sound off topic, but rest assured that it is not ( I will show this later). Do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ at any time, was afflicted or suffered in hell?

Mike,
Yes, you accurately have represented my views; I am glad that somebody so did. I do not believe that Christ in any way suffered in hell fire. He said at the cross that it was finished, and I believe that it was finished. I do have a full length article on this topic. Perhaps, I will put it on as a new thread. -- Herb Evans

 

[Tom Butler]

My other question will sound off topic, but rest assured that it is not ( I will show this later). Do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ at any time, was afflicted or suffered in hell?

Herb can speak for himself, but here's my view. No, Jesus did not suffer in Hell.

Generally that view is an inference from Psalm 16:10--"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

The problem is that the Hell mentioned in that verse is Sheol, simply the place of the dead, not necessarily a place of suffering and punishment. This messianic prophecy, in my view, simply means that God will not leave his son dead, but will raise him up out of the place of the dead. In other words, the resurreciton.

I recognize the argument that Jesus took our sins, was made sin for us, he must suffer as a sinner, thus take our hell for us. But one cannot make that argument from Psalm 16:10.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Mike,
Yes, you accurately have represented my views; I am glad that somebody so did. I do not believe that Christ in any way suffered in hell fire. He said at the cross that it was finished, and I believe that it was finished. I do have a full length article on this topic. Perhaps, I will put it on as a new thread. -- Herb Evans

Herb can speak for himself, but here's my view. No, Jesus did not suffer in Hell.

Generally that view is an inference from Psalm 16:10--"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

The problem is that the Hell mentioned in that verse is Sheol, simply the place of the dead, not necessarily a place of suffering and punishment. This messianic prophecy, in my view, simply means that God will not leave his son dead, but will raise him up out of the place of the dead. In other words, the resurreciton.

I recognize the argument that Jesus took our sins, was made sin for us, he must suffer as a sinner, thus take our hell for us. But one cannot make that argument from Psalm 16:10.

For what it is worth, I absolutely agree with both Tom and Herb.

I believe the "Christ suffered the torments of hell/ Christ died spiritually" doctrine to be a terrible and dangerous error.

lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Herb said:

Quote:

The parable is for Jews in the tribulation after the coming and wedding before the battle. Israel and Israelites are God’s servants whether saved or not.

What pray-tell did he mean, reckon?

lacy

I hope I didn't misrepresent your views. I'm sorry if i did.

What, in fact, do you believe?

Why does diverting this warning to the Jews in the trib pacify your fear of the warning? And what exactly does it mean for Jews in the trib and their salvation? Do they get saved by not eating with the drunken and not beating their fellow servants? By free grace? A combination? Or are they on some other plan?

Also, why was a warning to jews in the trib given as a response to Peter's question?

Lacy

 

[Mike Berzins]

Mike,
Yes, you accurately have represented my views; I am glad that somebody so did. I do not believe that Christ in any way suffered in hell fire. He said at the cross that it was finished, and I believe that it was finished. I do have a full length article on this topic. Perhaps, I will put it on as a new thread. -- Herb Evans

I agree Jesus did not suffer in hell. Why this is relevant to this thread will have to wait until I have a little bit more time.

For now, come let us reason together. We all know that the Lord wants us to bring forth works of gold, silver, precious stones, and not wood, hay and stubble. To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. It is a sin to erect a “bad” (II Corinthians 5:10) work of wood hay and stubble, when the Lord wants gold, silver, and precious stones.

I Corinthians 3:14-15 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

In verse 14, if it is it the new man that receives the reward, I assume it would then be the new man that built the work that abides (the pronoun “he” in “he hath built thereon” is referencing the same person that the “he” that “shall receive a reward”.) In verse 15, the “he” that suffers loss and the “he” that shall be saved, yet so as by fire, is also the new man. But since the new man “cannot sin”, then it must not have been the new man who built the wood hay and stubble. Because building a bad work is sin.

My question is, why does the new man suffer loss for a work that was a result of the old man’s sin? If Christ paid for our sins at Calvary (and he did), why does the new man suffer loss as a result of sin?

Also, what is the new man “that shall be saved, yet so as by fire” being saved from, considering that the new man “cannot sin”?

 

[Herb Evans]

Mike Berzins]

My question is, why does the new man suffer loss for a work that was a result of the old man’s sin? If Christ paid for our sins at Calvary (and he did), why does the new man suffer loss as a result of sin?

The new man suffers loss because any worthlesss works that the old man does will not be rewarded in the new man. Any works that the new man does in Christ will be rewarded. Only what is done for Christ will last as the poem goes. Only the new man can build works of worth on the foundation of Christ. -- Herb Evans

Also, what is the new man “that shall be saved, yet so as by fire” being saved from, considering that the new man “cannot sin”?

From the fire that burns up the worthless works. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

We all know that the Lord wants us to bring forth works of gold, silver, precious stones, and not wood, hay and stubble. To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. It is a sin to erect a “bad” (II Corinthians 5:10) work of wood hay and stubble, when the Lord wants gold, silver, and precious stones.

Mike, the mistake that you are making here is to interpret "bad" as evil or sinful, when in fact it should be interpreted "worthless." Still, I suspect that you are trying to create a set up, but that will not last long. -- Herb Evans

 

[Mike Berzins]

We all know that the Lord wants us to bring forth works of gold, silver, precious stones, and not wood, hay and stubble. To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. It is a sin to erect a “bad” (II Corinthians 5:10) work of wood hay and stubble, when the Lord wants gold, silver, and precious stones.

Mike, the mistake that you are making here is to interpret "bad" as evil or sinful, when in fact it should be interpreted "worthless." Still, I suspect that you are trying to create a set up, but that will not last long. -- Herb Evans

The understanding of the word bad as "worthless" rather than "evil" or "sinful" is not the issue. Erecting a "worthless" work when the Lord wants and expects a good work, is sin (James 4:17). The new man is then "suffering loss" due to the old man's sin. And this does not conflict with the fact that the Lord already paid for our sins on the cross. If it is not incorrect for the new man to "suffer loss" due to the old man's sin, on what basis could one claim then that the new man suffering the loss of say, the 1000 year Kingdom be contrary to Christ paying for our sins?

 

[Mike Berzins]

Mike Berzins]

Also, what is the new man “that shall be saved, yet so as by fire” being saved from, considering that the new man “cannot sin”?

From the fire that burns up the worthless works. -- Herb Evans

I was saved from my sin by the blood of Jesus. I needed to be saved from my sin because the wages of sin is death. My sin therefore, was a real danger to me, and so I needed saving. I would think one only needs to be saved from something that is a danger to him. If the fire is only trying the works, and not the man, why would the new man need to be saved from it? I would think the new man wouldn't need saving from the fire that is judging the old man's works anymore than I need saving from the fire in my furnace.

And can a glorified, sinless body even be hurt by fire? Or would the new man be like the Lord walking in the fire with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego?

 

[Herb Evans]

I was saved from my sin by the blood of Jesus. I needed to be saved from my sin because the wages of sin is death. My sin therefore, was a real danger to me, and so I needed saving. I would think one only needs to be saved from something that is a danger to him. If the fire is only trying the works, and not the man, why would the new man need to be saved from it? I would think the new man wouldn't need saving from the fire that is judging the old man's works anymore than I need saving from the fire in my furnace.

And can a glorified, sinless body even be hurt by fire? Or would the new man be like the Lord walking in the fire with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego?

The man is not being tried; his works are; so, he does not NEED to be saved from the fire. He shall be saved so as by fire, the same way that Noah was saved by water. That is an adjunct that is stated to avoid any of the readers' confusion, fear, or apprehension about the saved man versus his bad works. It says nothing about sins here. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

Mike Berzins]The understanding of the word bad as "worthless" rather than "evil" or "sinful" is not the issue.

It is the issue, if you want to interpret the verse correctly and not try to force sin into the passage. -- Hreb Evans

Erecting a "worthless" work when the Lord wants and expects a good work, is sin (James 4:17).

It is that way here but not at the JSOC. You are reading James and sin into the JSOC. And that after already admitting that your sins were talken care of at Calvary -- Herb Evans

The new man is then "suffering loss" due to the old man's sin. And this does not conflict with the fact that the Lord already paid for our sins on the cross.

That is not correct. It does not have anything to do with the old man's sin but with the combination of the old man/new man's works. But the loss of what? REWARDS! A man is not going to be rewarded for worthless works. -- Herb Evans

If it is not incorrect for the new man to "suffer loss" due to the old man's sin, . . .

Ahah, you are arguing in a circle, assuming that the loss is because of sin. --Herb Evans

on what basis could one claim then that the new man suffering the loss of say, the 1000 year Kingdom be contrary to Christ paying for our sins?

Well, the claim of losing the kingdom is a false claim and is not in the verse. You are forcing it into the verse as your buddies tried to. A truely saved man does not lose the kingdom that he already has inherited along with eternal life. -- Herb Evans

 

[Mike Berzins]

Mike Berzins]The understanding of the word bad as "worthless" rather than "evil" or "sinful" is not the issue.

It is the issue, if you want to interpret the verse correctly and not try to force sin into the passage. -- Hreb Evans

Erecting a "worthless" work when the Lord wants and expects a good work, is sin (James 4:17).

It is that way here but not at the JSOC. You are reading James and sin into the JSOC. And that after already admitting that your sins were talken care of at Calvary -- Herb Evans

The wood hay stubble is built here, in this life. Whatever worthless work that is tried at the judgment seat was built here. And it was a sin to build it. After one sinfully builds this work here, the Lord then tries it by fire at the judgment seat of Christ. Based on a man's sinful decision in this life to erect a false work, the new man at the judgment seat wil suffer loss of his reward.

Does this accurately reflect your viewpoint?

 

[J. Jump]

Loss is a form of the word lose. To lose something means that something has been in your possession. Meaning it is something you have and then you no longer have it.

The only verse that I am aware of that folks use to "prove" that it is potential rewards (which is not currently in our possessions) that one loses is in I Corinthians 3. But the verse doesn't tell us that he will suffer loss of rewards. It tells us that he will suffer loss.

So what are we in jeopardy of losing that we already have possession of? It is our soul. And the Bible tells us that the loss of one's soul is a real possibility, despite what others would have us to believe.

What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and yet lose his soul.

If you will save your life (same Greek word for soul) you will lose it in the age to come. If you lose your life (soul) now you will find it in the age to come.

Folks the idea that one can lose their soul is a scary thought, but that's why we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. What is there to fear and why do we need to tremble if everyone is going to get their piece of paradise pie in that day?

Again why does Hebrews tell believers that it is a fearlful thing to fall into the hands of the living God? If all I'm going to do is lose some rewards that don't amount to much anyway who cares...right? I can live my life any ole way I please and I will still end up in the same place as everyone else.

Now folks will say wait a minute I didn't say you could live your life any ole way you please. So then what happens to those folks that believe, but not walk in obedience well they weren't saved.

Well now we are at our second unBiblical stance on matters. Works and faith are not tied together in any way, shape or form when eternal (spiritual) salvation is in view.

So what happens is we have unScriptural doctrine building on each other and feeding on each other. If the foundations be destroyed what are the people of God to do?

Modern day Christendom is destroying the foundations of grace through faith apart from works and then building on top of that flawed doctrine, which only leads to more flawed doctrine.

The Biblical support for the Word of the Kingdom is overwhelming in both the OT and the NT.

I would urge folks to look at this and test it with what Scripture says. What I say means absolutely nothing. Test what has been said here against Scripture and see if everything that has been said is Truth or not.

I no this is long, but just got going. Let me say one other thing. There is no way one could lose rewards, because rewards are stored up as one does good works. There is not a storehouse that is full of rewards waiting on you and then when you hit the JSOC they just all go away. Your rewards are something that you gain as you go.

Therefore if you have rewards at the JSOC you will receive them, because your works will have proven to be gold, silver and precious stones. If however your works are wood, hay and stuble there were never any rewards there for you to lose.

I pray God will have mercy on our eyes and ears.

 

[Herb Evans]

Loss is a form of the word lose. To lose something means that something has been in your possession. Meaning it is something you have and then you no longer have it.

The only verse that I am aware of that folks use to "prove" that it is potential rewards (which is not currently in our possessions) that one loses is in I Corinthians 3. But the verse doesn't tell us that he will suffer loss of rewards. It tells us that he will suffer loss.

So what are we in jeopardy of losing that we already have possession of? It is our soul. And the Bible tells us that the loss of one's soul is a real possibility, despite what others would have us to believe.

What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and yet lose his soul.

If you will save your life (same Greek word for soul) you will lose it in the age to come. If you lose your life (soul) now you will find it in the age to come.

Folks the idea that one can lose their soul is a scary thought, but that's why we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. What is there to fear and why do we need to tremble if everyone is going to get their piece of paradise pie in that day?

Again why does Hebrews tell believers that it is a fearlful thing to fall into the hands of the living God? If all I'm going to do is lose some rewards that don't amount to much anyway who cares...right? I can live my life any ole way I please and I will still end up in the same place as everyone else.

Now folks will say wait a minute I didn't say you could live your life any ole way you please. So then what happens to those folks that believe, but not walk in obedience well they weren't saved.

Well now we are at our second unBiblical stance on matters. Works and faith are not tied together in any way, shape or form when eternal (spiritual) salvation is in view.

So what happens is we have unScriptural doctrine building on each other and feeding on each other. If the foundations be destroyed what are the people of God to do?

Modern day Christendom is destroying the foundations of grace through faith apart from works and then building on top of that flawed doctrine, which only leads to more flawed doctrine.

The Biblical support for the Word of the Kingdom is overwhelming in both the OT and the NT.

I would urge folks to look at this and test it with what Scripture says. What I say means absolutely nothing. Test what has been said here against Scripture and see if everything that has been said is Truth or not.

I no this is long, but just got going. Let me say one other thing. There is no way one could lose rewards, because rewards are stored up as one does good works. There is not a storehouse that is full of rewards waiting on you and then when you hit the JSOC they just all go away. Your rewards are something that you gain as you go.

Therefore if you have rewards at the JSOC you will receive them, because your works will have proven to be gold, silver and precious stones. If however your works are wood, hay and stuble there were never any rewards there for you to lose.

I pray God will have mercy on our eyes and ears.

Yawn! :sleeping_2: -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

The wood hay stubble is built here, in this life. Whatever worthless work that is tried at the judgment seat was built here. And it was a sin to build it.

Yes! Was that sin paid for at Calvary, like you said. -- Herb Evans

After one sinfully builds this work here, the Lord then tries it by fire at the judgment seat of Christ.

Yes! The worthless work is tried, the sin is gone at the JSOC. -- Herb Evans

Based on a man's sinful decision in this life to erect a false work, . . .

Why are you forcing the word "false" into the discussion. Teaching kingdom exclusion and that some saintswill go to hell fire is not only a false work but a false doctrine and SIN. Do you think that will get you excluded? -- Herb Evans

. . .the new man at the judgment seat will suffer loss of his reward.

Yes! -- Herb Evans

Does this accurately reflect your viewpoint?

No, your deceitfully embellished statements more accurately reflect your viewpoints. -- Herb Evans

 

[J. Jump]

Yawn! :sleeping_2:

Boy how telling of Christendom today Brother Herb. It's time for believers to WAKE UP and smell the warnings that the Spirit has so graciously given to us! But let us not sleep like those in the night, but let us be ever watchful so that day does not over take us like a thief in the night.

Wonder why it would be said that, that day (speaking of judgment) would over take some believers like a thief. Hmmmmm . . . just something to ponder.